Question regarding Paul's understanding of justification

[reccanboy]

The Judaizers did, hence Gal 3:16ff.
Justification is “apart from” the Law because God’s promise to Abraham would have been supplanted if He changed the promise to be dependent on the Law. Yet the Law came “450 years” after God’s promise to Abraham, thus God’s plan of salvation was in place long before. And in v21 Paul says IF the Law had the power to bring spiritual life, THEN righteousness would have come by the Law, but the fact is the Law inherently LACKS the power to save. Whether you keep the Law or Jesus keeps the Law for you is irrelevant because the Law by its nature was never intended to justify.

Galatians 3:20-21 doesn’t give us evidence that the Judaizers of Galatia believed this. In fact, the very purpose of Paul writing to Galatia because: *It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.

• (Gal. 6:12)

The Gentile Christians were being pressured into being circumcised by the false brethren in order not to be persecuted, and Paul told them that if they did get circumcised, then they would be severed from Christ by seeking justification through the Law along with Faith.

The Gentiles obviously believed in the sacrifice of Christ, and the merit of eternal life by faith in Jesus, so saying that they believed that the Law in and of itself, could justify them, is simply erroneous.

There technically isn’t such thing as a “Gentile Judaizer.” The Judaizers were Christian Jews using the Law as a tool to pridefully boast and look down upon Gentile Christians. The Gentiles were similar to how Blacks were treated by some racist Whites 50 years ago, the racists would look down upon Blacks as stupid and inferior, and that is what the Judaizers (not all Jewish Christians) were doing to Gentiles.

Correct, I got it wrong.

 

[reccanboy]

Catholic Dude, I think I understand your approach, and I may have been misunderstanding you. I need to read some commentary by Augustine on the topic before making a further response, as understanding the Catholic position was my initial intention.

 

[Strategery]

Luther’s caveat “faith alone” is what causes consternation among Catholics. This is because only in rhetoric can faith and deeds be separated - not in reality. To discuss it abstractly, we must assure the consciences of believers that it is Christ who saves, and we who receive the saving benefits

Works are the motions and actions of saving faith. What St. Paul warns against is those who think they will be justified by works apart from saving faith.

Very well said Johnny.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Galatians 3:20-21 doesn’t give us evidence that the Judaizers of Galatia believed this.

Then Paul’s message in Gal 3:16ff is an irrelevant issue, he would be refuting a position which nobody held, or at least implied. Paul is removing the Law out of the salvation equation entirely.

In fact, the very purpose of Paul writing to Galatia because: *It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.

• (Gal. 6:12)

The Gentile Christians were being pressured into being circumcised by the false brethren in order not to be persecuted, and Paul told them that if they did get circumcised, then they would be severed from Christ by seeking justification through the Law along with Faith.

Yes, I think we at least agree halfway here, persecution was a huge factor. But do you know why they would be severed from Christ by getting circumcised?
5:3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
Speaking crudely, circumcision was like signing a contract, that contract is the Mosaic Law. The Law was temporal and meant to be a map to find the Messiah, when Jesus came the Law was done away with. To THEN get circumcised and thus subscribe to the whole law is an implicit denial that Christ came and totally misunderstood the purpose of the Law.

The Gentiles obviously believed in the sacrifice of Christ, and the merit of eternal life by faith in Jesus, so saying that they believed that the Law in and of itself, could justify them, is simply erroneous.

They were confused on the relation between Christ and the Mosaic Law. I don’t deny the Gentiles or Judaizers denied Christ and faith in him, quite the opposite, but they had an incorrect view of what role the Law played.

Catholic Dude, I think I understand your approach, and I may have been misunderstanding you. I need to read some commentary by Augustine on the topic before making a further response, as understanding the Catholic position was my initial intention.

No problem.

 

[PJM]

If one reads Galatians 3 or Romans 4, Paul offers a defense against those who believe that righteousness could be gained through the Law.

If Paul stated that righteousness could never be gained through the Law, then how is it that a figure such as Moses, for example, could seek justification?

Would it be through faith, apart from the Law? .

Justification and Salvation

Rom.5: 1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God -- not because of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom. 3 20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all that believe. … that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

Gal. 2: 16 yet we know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified…… I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.

Rom. 5: 9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood

CATHOLIC EVIDENCE for salvation through Faith with works.

Gen. 22: 10 Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.

Gal, 3: 27 for, as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Baptism is a requirement unto salvation. It is manifested as a work of Faith, Hope and Love. John 3: 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Rom 1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. (We are being told that faith by itself does not guarantee our salvation)

Rom. 2: 12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. (Speaking here of the Commandments.)

Rom. 6: 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions…. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

James 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So, Faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.”

Mt. 12: 35 …for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Heb. 6: 9 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work, and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do

1st. Cor. 6: 9-10 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

John 14: 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

We know of course that the “original law,” the Law of the Covenant, with Moses, The Ten Commandments, were what Yahweh -God, issued and expected everyone to follow. By the time of our Blessed Lord’s ministry on earth, they had been expanded as “THE (Torah) LAW” to over three hundred ADDITIONAL obligations, most of which had little or nothing to do with God’s original intent. Yet they were taught “as the law (of the Covenant).”

What is being said in all of these (Justification Only) passages is that one’s obedience to “the priest expanded law” was not essential to ones salvation in the eyes of God. Jesus without condemning these “RULES,” rather only saying, their fulfillment, did little or nothing to assist in ones salvation clearly stated that “the law,” was separate from the Covenant of Salvation. Obeying the Commandments YES, obeying “the law,” yes too, but not effecting the Covenant, Good, but not essential.

Clearly and indisputably, God expects more from His us than ONLY to believe in Him. Of course we must have Great Faith!  We must also be baptized, we must obey His Commandments. We must through our works put Faith, Hope and Love into action. The degree that we are successful in these endeavors will determine our Salvation. Thus salvation is an ongoing process.

One who assumes that all that is required by Almighty God for our salvation is Faith without works would be of the mind that our life’s conduct is of no consequence, and our personal decisions can rule. Wrong, wrong, wrong! If this were true, there would be no need for the Commandments, or the Beatitudes, which are road -maps on how we are to live and love. They are not simply suggestions they are the directions we need to live a happy, fruitful and spiritually rewarding life in accordance to God’s plan for our salvation.

 

[brownjt]

I was responding to this quote of yours:

Adoption is not taught in the Torah as an individual status as in the NT. Israel is referred to frequently as “my son” (Hosea) in allegorical terms, but Jesus is the one who makes us His brothers and sisters and through His passion, resurrection and ascension makes what Hebrews calls “a new and living way” to the Father. Paul teaches that through CHRIST we have been given the gift of adoption (Rom 8) whereby we cry out “Abba, Father”. This is unheard of in the OT except in poetic language in reference to the nation or in specific reference to the Davidic Messianic dynasty.

Per the Law, St. Paul uses the expression as a reference to justification by works - and in this point, many Catholics have overreacted to Luther (see post #2 by KingAlfred). Luther’s caveat “faith alone” is what causes consternation among Catholics. This is because only in rhetoric can faith and deeds be separated - not in reality. To discuss it abstractly, we must assure the consciences of believers that it is Christ who saves, and we who receive the saving benefits (please see: Zechariah chapter 3 for a beautiful illustration of the passivity of the saved person). Clearly we will receive rewards for our virtuous deeds (Rev 19:8) - how is this possible without merits? And how are merits accepted if works have no role in the divine economy?

What the Judaizers were doing was adding requirements to the saving work of Christ - particularly circumcision. This was as St. Peter says, ‘a yoke that neither we nor our fathers could bear.’ Adding circumcision or any other legal requirement to the saving action of Jesus is most certainly heterodox and demands correction.

Works are the motions and actions of saving faith. What St. Paul warns against is those who think they will be justified by works apart from saving faith.

Very well put.

 

[brownjt]

Justification and Salvation

Rom.5: 1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God -- not because of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom. 3 20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all that believe. … that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

Gal. 2: 16 yet we know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified…… I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.

Rom. 5: 9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood

CATHOLIC EVIDENCE for salvation through Faith with works.

Gen. 22: 10 Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.

Gal, 3: 27 for, as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Baptism is a requirement unto salvation. It is manifested as a work of Faith, Hope and Love. John 3: 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Rom 1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. (We are being told that faith by itself does not guarantee our salvation)

Rom. 2: 12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. (Speaking here of the Commandments.)

Rom. 6: 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions…. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

James 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So, Faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.”

Mt. 12: 35 …for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Heb. 6: 9 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work, and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do

1st. Cor. 6: 9-10 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

John 14: 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

We know of course that the “original law,” the Law of the Covenant, with Moses, The Ten Commandments, were what Yahweh -God, issued and expected everyone to follow. By the time of our Blessed Lord’s ministry on earth, they had been expanded as “THE (Torah) LAW” to over three hundred ADDITIONAL obligations, most of which had little or nothing to do with God’s original intent. Yet they were taught “as the law (of the Covenant).”

What is being said in all of these (Justification Only) passages is that one’s obedience to “the priest expanded law” was not essential to ones salvation in the eyes of God. Jesus without condemning these “RULES,” rather only saying, their fulfillment, did little or nothing to assist in ones salvation clearly stated that “the law,” was separate from the Covenant of Salvation. Obeying the Commandments YES, obeying “the law,” yes too, but not effecting the Covenant, Good, but not essential.

Clearly and indisputably, God expects more from His us than ONLY to believe in Him. Of course we must have Great Faith!  We must also be baptized, we must obey His Commandments. We must through our works put Faith, Hope and Love into action. The degree that we are successful in these endeavors will determine our Salvation. Thus salvation is an ongoing process.

One who assumes that all that is required by Almighty God for our salvation is Faith without works would be of the mind that our life’s conduct is of no consequence, and our personal decisions can rule. Wrong, wrong, wrong! If this were true, there would be no need for the Commandments, or the Beatitudes, which are road -maps on how we are to live and love. They are not simply suggestions they are the directions we need to live a happy, fruitful and spiritually rewarding life in accordance to God’s plan for our salvation.

Ammmeeennn, Nicely put. Now one man’s work may exceed another. As long as we do not judge other christians work through our own eyes. Some may be more inclined to corporeal works and others spiritual. The effect of works is compounding and brings us closer on a daily basis spiritually to our Lord and does the work here on earth as expected from us. Perhaps the nuances of all of this is lost on the world and we need to explain it as you have here.

 

[ariasstanthony]

Maybe this would throw some light in this isue! “intent’’ When people go to court there has to be prove wether a specific act was done with true intent or not! this will produce a verdict. when we act “God” sees the intent in our hearts:”…not all who call me Lord will be saved",…“you see those prostitutes acrros the street?, they will be saved before you, hypocrits”,…“Mary Magdalen”?! Compare when someone does some thing for you because they have to as to when they loved to!How does that feel?I think the same is with “God”! He sees the intention of the heart;that’s why “He” would prefer an honest prostitute over a dishonest priest!One is blind because she doesn’t know better; one is blind because he knows better!And so there is knowlege of the heart and of the mind!but what knowlege does God want?
remember! Adam and Eve sined because they were “tempted” in to knowing!So, I feel that if we are to know, we are to know with “innocense”; because if we don’t, then we will be insulting “God” and be lieing to our selves also beacause innocense is lack of “malice”; which is of the devil.that’s why Jesus wants us to be like children:to know with innocense; which is from “God’s” “Holy spirit”.SO, why do you want to know wether Moses made it or not? what’s it to you?that’s God own business!mind your own business!whatis it to you that “God” wants to save the sinners and not the righttious?Why do we have to know everything?This can insult “God”.The only thing we need to know is to Love in the way of “God”.“let us love, not in word or in toungue; but indeed and truth!”, Saint John The Apostle.So if we know in innocense we will have no guilt and we will be free, and have the joy of "God"in us, which no ages or cultures or things can ever give us.So let us love “God” and our neighbor and His creatures with innocense.And, if we want to be “justified”, le us be innocent, and obey the law that “God” made; but let us do it with love, reason and faith; that we know of “God” through the ages. Love and prayer, Carlos

 

[KingAlfred]

You know, after reading this thread and posting a few responses, I reflected at length on the significance of St. Paul’s theology of faith. I soon came to re-affirm its great importance to me, given the degree to which I sin, yet still consider myself a disciple of Christ. It comes down to Paul’s insights and teachings. I owe him more than I’ve been giving him credit for, regrettably.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

You know, after reading this thread and posting a few responses, I reflected at length on the significance of St. Paul’s theology of faith. I soon came to re-affirm its great importance to me, given the degree to which I sin, yet still consider myself a disciple of Christ. It comes down to Paul’s insights and teachings. I owe him more than I’ve been giving him credit for, regrettably.

Don’t worry about it, just continue to grow and you will soon realize just how Catholic St Paul really is.