Question regarding prayers to Mary and saints

[PaladinSword]

Third century that site says. Well I don’t know about the internet but some of our traditions are very old. I thought you wrote 1500s. Some things we have are so old they are just seen as given or not investigated. There are icons of Mary and Christ in the catacombs. Also with the communion of saints. The body of Christ is not supposed to be theologically divided… we participate in his divine nature. That is how we are atoned because of what he had done so we participate in his glory and that in my opinion is how saints hear prayers. The administration of the prayers of the saints is also in the book of Revelation.

 

[simpleguy01]

Hi Paladin,

its on this section ive found the info:
“With the victory at Battle of Lepanto (1571) accredited to her, it “signified the beginning of a strong resurgence of Marian devotions.”[45]”
and i also get to view this youtube video:

Can you help me out on the details in the youtube is true as well? browsed a bit but not researched a lot. appreciate the help.

 

[Wesrock]

Hi,
Posting a question, and wanted to know more on what the catholics believe.

Question:
Is Mary and the saints humans or not?

Yes. 100% human. Jesus is 100% human and 100% God. The saints are 100% human only (caveat: we call the angels saints, too. Saint Michael is an angel. He is not human. He is an angel. Mary, Peter, John. Joseph, etc… are still 100% human. They don’t become angels or anything else after death.)

• it seems based on my observation, and reading in this forum they are treated more than humans or has powers beyond what mere humans/dead humans can do. They can seem to hear millions/billions of prayer at a time.

Who’s to say how time is measured in heaven? Anyway, they don’t have any natural super powers to hear us. God gives them the privilege of hearing us. We have the Church on Earth, and they are part of the Church in Heaven, and we’re really one church, not two churches. One body together in Christ.

Do they have the power of omnipresence(as God does)?

No.

If they are humans, at most they can only hear one prayer at a time.

And why would they only be able to hear one prayer at a time? Heaven isn’t exactly like how it’s depicted in movies. They’re not physical bodies walking around in the clouds. They’re spirit, and not really part of time as we understand it while they’re in union with God.

It should be noted that after the resurrection of the dead all the saved will have glorified bodies like Jesus did after the resurrection. We’ll be able to appear in locked rooms and other such things, not really bound by the same laws we are now, but still only human.

Not to be disrespectful, but to me its like praying to them are like a lottery? So how do you think are these prayers heard?

I like to think of the saints as older brothers and sisters. They’ve grown up, they’ve made the right choices, they’re now close friends of God and God has cleansed them of all sin. And they’re still part of the Church, which means worshipping God and praying for others in the Church who need it.

 

[PaladinSword]

The battle of lepanto really happened it’s where the feast of our lady of the rosary comes from. There have been things developing in the church over time sure. Some of that is newer yeah but it doesn’t invalidate it. Like the immaculate conception didn’t become dogma til more recently doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

 

[Wesrock]

Regarding tradition:
traditions changes. one is praying to mary. from what ive read, it started with Pope Pius v on 15th century. if it started on that time, how about those prayers said before 15th century?

This just isn’t true. The Eastern Orthodox, who split with Rome in 1056, sing beautiful praises and prayers to Mary, calling her the All Holy, and recognizing her as spotless and Queen of Heaven. Even the Oriental Orthodox, who split in the fifth century, pray to Mary and the saints.

We have a papyrus documenting a prayer from 250 AD which goes “Beneath your compassion we take refuge, Theotokos! Our prayers, do not despise in necessities, but from danger deliver us, only pure, only blessed one.” Theotokos means “God-bearer,” or “Mother of God,” and is a title assigned to Mary. This was a group prayer, said during certain liturgies, and copies have been found in Latin (originally in Greek). Prayers to Mary and the saints were common in this early Church.

 

[Theo2]

I believe we pray to saints when we don’t have the faith to go to God Himself.

 

[Wesrock]

The Eastern Orthodox/Catholic hymn “Akathist to the Theotokos” originates in the sixth century, at least that is for part of the form used today.

 

[jlhargus]

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

We come to the city of God boldly to the throne of grace to obtain mercy and grace in time of need.

[Hb12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God , the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels , 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn , which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect , 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling , that speaketh better things than that of Abel.]

One may come directly to God, to angels, or to the spirits of just men made perfect, through the one Mediator=Christ.

[Rv5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain , having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 … 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints .]

[Rv 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should Offer it with the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s Hand .]

[Mt18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones for I say unto you That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. ]

Jesus says their angels behold the face of his Father. The angels stand in the presence of God. They have continual access to the Father. If one of their little ones are in need the angel serves as the child’s intercessor before God, otherwise what’s the point?

[Lk15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth , more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. 8 … 9 … 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.]

Who rejoices in the presents of the angels? Saints in heaven. They know when a sinner repents and rejoice in the presence of the angels they know what is going on and pray for us. We are a people not lone individuals. It’s not Jesus and me but Jesus and us. The entire body of Christ.

I am the vine you are the branches . The vine reaches from earth to heaven and the sap=Holy Spirit flows through all and is in all.

 

[Limoncello4021]

Your history is not correct. You are getting pieces of the story from the internet and do not have the whole picture. The earliest of Catholic Churches dedicated to Mary are found in the 5th century.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

inuing Anglican.

Hi JonNC,

Thanks for replying. Very true, they are aware. But it does not say about prayer requests, just says about a sinner who repents.

Perhaps. In my Lutheran days, that was exactly the thought: no command, promise, or example.
So, knowing that the saints pray for us in a general sense, pray to God asking Him to hear their prayers.
I think their’s is a solid thinking, but I’m more willing now to extend intercessions to the saints.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Of course they were humans on earth (other than Sts. Michael, Gabriel and Raphael, who were angels, as Wesrock explained). The saints other than Mary are now souls in Heaven, and Mary was assumed into Heaven body and soul, so she also has a glorified human body in heaven.

 

[JonNC]

I believe we pray to saints when we don’t have the faith to go to God Himself.

Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief.

That’s a prayer.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I believe we pray to saints when we don’t have the faith to go to God Himself.

This is misinformation, and at odds with Catholic teaching.
Many people, including both myself and many saints when they were on earth, pray fervently to Jesus, Mary, AND the saints.
I pray to Jesus for many minutes a day. I also pray to Mary and Joseph and many other saints, not because I don’t think God is hearing my prayer to Jesus, but because the saints are also my special friends and I learn from their examples.

Mary is my mother and Jesus’ mother and prayer to her is normal and natural, another way to connect to God.

As for saints other than Mary, one reason I like them is that they were sinful humans. Not God, not free of all sin. Humans, like me, who had doubts, made mistakes, and had difficulties in their lives to overcome. Today is St. Augustine’s feast, for example. He led a sinful life and then renounced it. I can relate, I did the same. So I have something in common with him and can model myself after him and ask for his intercession. It has nothing to do with lack of faith in God.

 

[TK421]

The only way a saint hears a prayer is through the power of God. So in saying a prayer to a saint, you can be just as sure that the prayer will be heard as if you were praying to God.

The saints are also in communion with God in the Beatific Vision: the Heavenly Court is united and works towards the same goal, which is to do God’s will in Heaven and on Earth. The powers of Heaven (and hell) are at work on Earth in mysterious ways.

The saints are in the Beatific Vision and transcend time. They can hear as many prayers as people can give. Heaven is a mystery until we get there, but the breadth of consciousness of a saint or angel is probably beyond what we know here on Earth.

Peace.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

They are human who have seen God. I don’t know whether they can hear more that one prayer at a time. If they can it is a gift from God.

Again, they are no longer human once they become saints. They were human on earth, except for the three angels called “saint”. In heaven (except again for the angels) they are souls, except Mary who is body and soul. Heaven is not bound by earthly time or limits and God gives the saints the ability to hear prayers with no limit on how many at once.

 

[Wesrock]

Theo2:

They are human who have seen God. I don’t know whether they can hear more that one prayer at a time. If they can it is a gift from God.

Again, they are no longer human once they become saints. They were human on earth, except for the three angels called “saint”. In heaven (except again for the angels) they are souls, except Mary who is body and soul. Heaven is not bound by earthly time or limits and God gives the saints the ability to hear prayers with no limit on how many at once.

They are human souls. Still human, though lacking a physical body. Just want to be careful on wording so the OP isn’t confused by the different ways we phrase things. I’ve no doubt we mean the same thing.

 

[Theo2]

This is misinformation, and at odds with Catholic teaching.

If you can back that up I will change my view.

 

[Wesrock]

Tis_Bearself:

This is misinformation, and at odds with Catholic teaching.

If you can back that up I will change my view.

The Church itself uses group and liturgical prayers to the saints during mass and the Divine Office. Are you saying we do this because we lack trust in God. And from the Catechism:

956 The intercession of the saints. “Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness… They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus… So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.”

957 Communion with the saints. “It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself”

We worship Christ as God’s Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord’s disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yes, we’re in agreement. What I mean is that other than Mary, whose human body went to heaven, and the angels, who were never human, the saints in heaven are no longer in physical human bodies. They are indeed the souls of humans.

 

[Theo2]

The Question was, why don’t we pray to Jesus? In my view that is always better.