Question regarding prayers to Mary and saints

[Wesrock]

any biblical proof of this?

Any Biblical proof you need Biblical proof for everything?

 

[simpleguy01]

if not biblical proof? may i please know what is the next best thing?

 

[Vico]

…
Is Mary and the saints humans or not?
…

Well, St. Thomas Aquinas had the opinion that a person exists only with both soul and body united, so when the body is dead, the person does not exist, of course, until the resurrection. The soul still exists, but there is not a glorified body yet for most saints. However, the Blessed Virgin Mary was assumed into heaven, so can we take that to be the glorified body?

 

[Wesrock]

if not biblical proof? may i please know what is the next best thing?

The Church, for Jesus left us with a Church for that very purpose, not a Bible. And it was within the Church that the Bible was distributed, preserved, and decided upon. Jesus did not promise us a text, but a Church against which the gates of hell would not prevail, and it was not just scriptures that Paul supported, but the Church as the pillar of truth, and enjoined his readers to adhere to the teachings and traditions he left them not included in his letters. Jesus entrusted his disciples to bind and loose with authority. Catholics know the Bible is true because the Church advises it is so. The Bible is the unerring word of God, true, but the Church and what was established by the apostles is the basis of our faith. The Bible does not and cannot interpret itself, which is why Jesus left us a living Church. He didn’t completely abolish the old ways of Temple and sacrifice and priesthood, but brought them to fulfillment in the Church, where what was before was only types of what would come.

 

[simpleguy01]

I hope you wont mind me sharing this with you.

i do believe bible is Gods word. He is the author. Asking Him to help us understand i think is key.
as i learned on my readings:
Proverbs 2:6-7 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding; He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk uprightly
James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
and he did task us to:

2 Timothy 2:15​

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
So you are right in not relying on any person to decipher it for you, but God did tell us to study His word, dissect it and understand it, therefore we should decipher its meaning.

Because i think in the end (do let me know if this is a speculation or not)
God will not ask us of our denomination, but will ask us if we have a relationship with this son Jesus Christ. As said in
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
believeth have also many levels stated in the bible… message me if you want to have a discussion about it.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I appreciate that you want to share, but I don’t read this type of thing when non-Catholics go on and on about it. Not interested. I thought you had a genuine question about Mary and the saints, so I tried to respond, but if this is all about you trying to proselytize, you’re knocking on the wrong window. And I most certainly don’t discuss this sort of thing in private messages. Have a nice day.

 

[simpleguy01]

thanks for your honest opinion on my reply.

as mentioned on previous post, it does not matter what denomination you are in(if your happy in catholicism im happy for you). What i think matters is our relationship with Him.

reason for private message, as the opened topic (levels of belief) is not related to this post, so another topic. Or i can just open another post about it. Just following the rules of the forum.

Have a great and wonderful day as well!

 

[TheLittleLady]

Saints are in heaven with God. They are no longer bound by time and they don’t get hungry and they are never tired. They do still love everyone, so, they pray for people.

 

[simpleguy01]

for Jesus lef

thank you Wesrock for your reply.

Funny that you’ve mentioned it, as i had just a discussion with my friend regarding this:
1 Timothy 3 : 15
15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

Here’s my take on this:
If you look at the chapter(and previous 2 chapters), Paul was giving instructions to timothy. and on this part, “the household of God” refers to the body of believers, which is the church of the living God. It being pillar and ground of the truth, the context here is that the believers are grounded in the truth(which is at that time being shared by Paul and the apostles) because the bible is not yet complete(still being written). Therefore now, as we have the bible, we ought to conduct ourselves in truth. How can we walk with God if we dont know Him and His word. therefore we have to bath ourselves in His word of truth.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

OP with regards to the Pharisees, kindly see Matthew 23:3. Jesus says to DO what they SAY but not as they do, because they practice not what they preach. So you see, He never meant for us to end up with no authority to listen to with regards to what we should be doing. On the contrary, He made clear that people listening what they were Saying to do was a good thing! He knows that we need an authority so that we all don’t lean on our own individual understandings. I hope this helps you in some way.

 

[godisgood77]

Mary was always perfectly in agreement with God’s will. It was God’s will that Jesus suffer and die for humanity.

I don’t think this is right… Mary is not omnipotent… she did not know the future, she did not know the time or the place… heck she did not even know that young Jesus was in the temple when she and Joseph lost him… she was surprised and disgruntled by that.

I mean even Jesus prayed to not be crucified while in the garden… Mary didn’t know as much or more than the son of God…for certain!

Where do you get that she knew about the crucifixion?

 

[simpleguy01]

yup it does help …thank you for your feedback.

 

[jlhargus]

thank you for the verses. Helps me find the sources i can read on.

on Rev 5:6, and Rev 8:3, we should take saint/saints in the context what the bible says about it. Its the believers who are living. As seen in the verses below, so not referring to the dead saints.

Romans 1:7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

JL: You are correct in Rv5:6-8 they are saints on earth and the twenty-four elders are saints in heaven. It is the elders=saints in heaven who are offering up the incense which are the prayers of the saints on earth. In Rv8:3 it is an angel offering incense with the prayers of the saints on earth.

[Rv5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain , having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints .]

[Rv 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should Offer it with the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s Hand .]

 

[PaladinSword]

Nothing has changed. It’s simply more was revealed or further defined dogmatically. I don’t see much the point of your question. Maybe it is a misunderstanding but The Catholic Church is one thing in the world as an institution that really hasn’t changed that much. This is why we value our tradition. A lot of our opponents may think they are practicing religion in a more authentic way but dare I say they are making it up themselves. There are certain things in the Catholic faith that will simply never change. And development and further progress doesn’t always equate “Change”. The immaculate conception of the blessed virgin Mary is a theological and metaphysical FACT. It is not just an opinion someone came up with and was like hey everybody let’s believe in this now. That is not how the Catholic faith operates nor is it the way any respectable religion should practice otherwise it is all make believe and a waste of everyone’s time.

 

[Dan_Defender]

The problem is not the Bible quotes, but the authority to interpret them. The Catholic Church put together the Bible, so I trust its authority to interpret it, above your authority, any day. If you are honest, then ask yourself, why is not the apocalypse of Peter or the gospel of Judas part of the Bible? and then look for the witnesses that match your interpretations before the 1500’s, you will find none. The truth is, there is no history of your set of beliefs traceable to Jesus.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

Therefore now, as we have the bible, we ought to conduct ourselves in truth. How can we walk with God if we dont know Him and His word. therefore we have to bath ourselves in His word of truth.

Doesn’t that assertion need Biblical evidence?

 

[jlhargus]

Regarding tradition: traditions changes. My take: this is for me shaky ground, as it changes, not a good reliable source. But what i did find is that Bible has not been changed.

Actually you only know the bible is the bible by Tradition. If Tradition is shaky and not a good reliable source why does the Bible say in [2Thes2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.]

Unless you can find a scripture telling us all oral Tradition is now found in scripture you are not following the Bible but a tradition of men. Apostolic or Divine Tradition and Scripture are the Word of God the one revelation given to the apostles.

[1Thes2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us , ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God , which effectually worketh also in you that believe.]

[2Tm2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men , who shall be able to teach others also.]

[2 Tm1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words , which thou hast heard of me , in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us .]

The Church was up and running , preaching, baptizing, correcting, teaching the manifold wisdom of the gospel, fifteen to twenty years or so before the first word of the NT was even penned and almost four hundred years before the canon was officially listed. By what authority then was the gospel taught? What authority decided which books were inspired and which were not inspired?

[Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican .]

For the OT you hold a Jewish tradition of men as it was decided after Christ after a change of authority to the Church. For the NT you hold an Apostolic Tradition defined by the Church.

 

[Fauken]

but as we have the bible

There have been multiple instances of people in the Bible misunderstanding God’s word even as He was saying it right in their faces. I could write you a sentence right now that could take on seven different meanings, all depending on where I place emphasis on the word. Words alone, while helpful, can be easily misinterpreted. And all your quotes which have acknowledged that Scripture is helpful, which it is, have failed to establish Scripture as the prime and final authority. God could have easily said Scripture is the pillar and bulwark of truth, but He didn’t. God could have easily commanded the Disciples to write down His every word, but He didn’t. If Scripture is to be the basis of authority, where is the passage in the Gospels where Jesus establishes it as such? There is no such passage. Why? Because Scripture was never meant to be the basis of authority of teaching. The Church, which Christ established and protects from error, was, and its establishment and birth is recorded in Scripture. You say that denomination doesn’t matter, that a relationship does. But how good is that relationship when you believe falsehoods about them over the truth? We Catholics believe we have the fullness of truth and our relationship with Christ enjoy this fullness, for God is truth. We know who Jesus is and are a part of His one, true, holy, Catholic, apostolic Church.

 

[jlhargus]

1 Timothy 3 : 15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

Here’s my take on this: If you look at the chapter(and previous 2 chapters), Paul was giving instructions to timothy. and on this part, “the household of God” refers to the body of believers, which is the church of the living God. It being pillar and ground of the truth, the context here is that the believers are grounded in the truth (which is at that time being shared by Paul and the apostles) because the bible is not yet complete (still being written). Therefore now, as we have the bible, we ought to conduct ourselves in truth. How can we walk with God if we dont know Him and His word. therefore we have to bath ourselves in His word of truth.

JL: First no one is more faithful to scripture than the Church, the pillar and ground of truth, that one body of Christ His bride. Christ doesn’t have a harem of thousands of brides. He is building one, singular Church on St Rock.

While Its good to bath ourselves in His word of truth. We can clearly see when the Church is abandoned as the pillar and ground of truth it creates a tower of Babel, Satan’s playground. Men building their own tower to heaven scattering people of faith into thousands of contradicting faith languages, no longer understanding the one faith language once delivered to the saints.

[Mt19:28 And Jesus said unto them , Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel .]

[Lk22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom , as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table=[Mass] in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel . 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you=plural=the 12 , that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee=singular=Peter, that thy faith fail not : and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren .]

 

[jlhargus]

thanks for your honest opinion on my reply.

as mentioned on previous post, it does not matter what denomination you are in(if your happy in catholicism im happy for you). What i think matters is our relationship with Him.

Not to be flippant but that’s like saying the gospel truth is irrelevant.