Question regarding prayers to Mary and saints

[Limoncello4021]

Look how many very different Christian denominations have resulted from Sola Scriptura, and people interpreting the Bible any way they want. There is now 500 years and more of evidence that relying on the Bible alone is impossible. This is self-evident to many many people.

 

[Todd_Easton]

God did tell us in the bible to pray for one another. But i have not seen any verses that God commands / tells us christians to ask help for prayer on dead saints.

What you say is true; I don’t recall any instances in the Bible where someone prayerfully addressed dead saints and asks them for help. However, in more general terms, there are some instances in the Bible, especially in the Catholic Bible, where someone other than God is prayerfully addressed and asked to do something:

Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! (Psalm 103:20)

Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host! (Psalm 148:2)

From the Song of the Three Young Men found in Daniel in Catholic Bibles:

Bless the Lord, you angels of the Lord, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. (Daniel 3:58)
. . .
Spirits and souls of the just, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever. (Daniel 3:86)

The above verse show that it is ok to prayerfully address angels and the righteous dead and ask them to do something, which in the above instances include praising God, something we know that they are ready, willing and able to do.

What else might the righteous dead be ready, willing and able to do? Catholic Bibles include a credible vision that Judas Maccabeus had of the dead high priest Onias and the dead prophet Jeremiah praying for the Jewish people. (2 Maccabees 15:11-16) That the righteous dead should show such concern for the living should not come as a surprise since, according to Jesus, even the dead rich man in torment was concerned enough about his living brothers to ask Abraham to send Lazarus to warn them. (Luke 16:27-28)

The Bible includes two miracles associated with the righteous dead, namely, 1) the dead prophet Samuel’s prophecy against Saul and Israel (2 Samuel 28:19) and 2) the resurrection of a dead man when his body touched the bones of the dead prophet Elisha. (2 Kings 13:21) In Catholic Bibles, those miracles are attributed to the intercession of those dead prophets:

Even after [Samuel] had fallen asleep he prophesied
and revealed to the king his death,
and lifted up his voice out of the earth in prophecy,
to blot out the wickedness of the people. (Sirach 46:20)

Nothing was too hard for [Elisha],
and when he was dead his body prophesied.
As in his life he did wonders,
so in death his deeds were marvelous. (Sirach 48:13-14)

Now, if, as has been shown by the above Bible verses, it is ok to prayerfully address angels and the righteous dead and ask them to praise God, which we know they are ready, willing and able to do, is it not logical to assume that it is also ok to prayerfully address the righteous dead and ask them to pray for us and to work miracle for us, which, as it has been shown in the above Bible verses, they are also ready, willing and able to do?

 

[TULIPed]

Biblical proof. Ok - I’ll play.

Do you celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December? How about the season of advent? Any advent wreath’s on the door? Maybe a Christmas tree?

Perhaps those aren’t important enough examples. Do you ever acknowledge your beliefs using the Apostles or Nicene Creeds? Does your church have a liturgy of any kind (I hope so!). Do you sing any hymns (I loves me some Hillsong!)

I do all of these things (many or most of them, thanks to the good old RCC (Xmas trees?). I can’t find any of them in the Bible - at least not verbatim. (Yes - the ideas are in the creeds - but somebody had to put them together). Maybe I should stop. If it weren’t for the RCC protecting orthodoxy - defending scripture - for 1600 years, we wouldn’t be here.

I’m a Reformed Protestant. I love the Bible. But I love Jesus the most. There’s a whole ton of our Catholic brothers and sisters love Jesus. They just ask his Mom for help - because everyone knows that Mom’s get stuff done. This is not the hill to die on. So, in the immortal words of ESPN, C’mon Man!!

 

[simpleguy01]

I personally would be very cautious in following Bishop’s and/or Priest’s commands / teachings without verifying what they are saying/preaching is really from the bible(our source of truth)
An example of this would be the mistake made by Peter (Galatians 2: 11-14)
Apostle Peter’s mistake even made other jew believers follow what he did, causing them to stumble(spiritually). Good thing, Paul was there to reprimand Peter of the truth of the Gospel in verse 14.

 

[Fauken]

(Xmas trees?)

That’s us too. Chopping down the gods of the pagans. Advent wreaths though are apparently from the Lutherans, along with pews.

 

[Fauken]

the bible(our source of truth)

Which is found nowhere in the Bible. It contains truths, but is not the source. The Church is the pillar of truth, not Scripture, and that is explicitly found in Scripture, which you’ve previously quoted.

 

[simpleguy01]

thank you todd for the reply.

I greatly appreciate putting the verses, it help us be on the same page on what we are discussing.
On tobit 12:15, it mainly says that the angel is in service to God, which is his primary role, follow and implement God’s commands.
Rev. 8:3, the word saints there has a different context when seen in other bible verses.

15 Bible verses about All Believers Are Saints

and on the context of the rev. chapter 8. its referring to the prayers of all believers who ever lived.
Gen 28:12 just mentions their manner of getting on and off from heaven…not necessarily ferrying prayers.

 

[simpleguy01]

thank you usagi for the reply.

but isnt it more of a speculation? can dead people hear our prayers? who is to say…
thats why ive previously mentioned, then the prayers asked from mary/dead saints have a 50/50 chance. We may or may not be sure whether they can hear it or not. Just dont want my prayers be like lottery. I may or may not get an answer.

 

[Usagi]

Just because something has “yes” and “no” possibilities doesn’t make the probability 50/50. Any assertion can be either true or false, but that doesn’t make the likelihood of each exactly equal.

That believers who have gone before us can hear our petitions and pray for us is not baseless speculation; it has been believed and taught by the vast majority of all Christians who have ever lived, since at least the era of persecutions when great Christian heroes were martyred in large numbers and began to be venerated for their faith and perseverance by those left behind. The fact that your particular sub-tradition of Christianity has limited divine revelation to the written scripture and not to the traditions that show how our spiritual ancestors understood and lived out the faith is not a limitation on those of us who have not lost that part of revelation.

 

[John_Martin]

Paul answered Peter as an apostle, as he explains in your reference to Galatians 2

He did so with his authority he did not use the scripture to prove what he was saying.

He did so at the First Council in Jerusalem and the decision was made by Peter not by Paul to finally accept the Gentiles without circumcision after Paul made his argument.

Paul argued to the council, the Council made the decision along with Peter, and the letter of outcome of the council was sent to the Gentiles welcoming them without circumcision

So this was an example of the living magisterium in the living tradition making it it known what the gospel was to the Gentiles who believed their leaders - the Council, the Pope, and Paul.

While Paul talks about it in Galatians you are showing a scripture that proves the authority of Bishops and popes and Priests to explain, interpret, and teach Doctrine, and then send the results, their command of what to believe to the people.

The purpose of studying the scriptures is not to find out whether a bishop or priest is telling the truth but to see the scripture in the light of what the Living Church has explained it to be rather than in the Darkness imagining what scripture might mean or could mean
John Martin

https://softvocation.org/2018/05/16/yes-or-no/

 

[Todd_Easton]

I was only proposing a possible solution to the problem you posed that seems to be supported by certain Bible verses.

On tobit 12:15, it mainly says that the angel is in service to God, which is his primary role, follow and implement God’s commands.

12 And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; and when you buried the dead, I was likewise present with you. 13 When you did not hesitate to rise and leave your dinner in order to go and lay out the dead, your good deed was not hidden from me, but I was with you. 14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raph′ael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.” (Tobit 12:12-15)

The angel Raphael acted as a prayer messenger for saints Tobit and Sarah bringing their prayer to heaven, to God in their case.

Rev. 8:3, the word saints there has a different context when seen in other bible verses.
. . .
and on the context of the rev. chapter 8. its referring to the prayers of all believers who ever lived.

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. (Revelation 8:3-4)

Revelation 8:3-4 shows an angel in some way handling the prayers of human beings.

Gen 28:12 just mentions their manner of getting on and off from heaven…not necessarily ferrying prayers.
[/quote]
Not necessarily ferrying prayers but possibly ferrying prayers to heaven.

 

[Fauken]

Just dont want my prayers be like lottery. I may or may not get an answer.

Let’s say for a moment that you’re right. You think God can’t hear your prayers simply because you asked someone else to pray for you? That God would say, “Oh, I’m not granting your request because you asked for someone else to help pray to me for you”? Do you see the problems this holds?

 

[TULIPed]

I would amend this slightly. Jesus is, “the Way, the Truth and the Life.” (John 14:6)

All truth comes from and literally is God. As the Psalmist writes, “Guide me in your truth and teach me,
for you are God my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long.” (Psalm 25:5)

Now - we come to know our King and Lord as members of His bride the church, but He, and He alone is Truth. After all - are there not “good” people who attend church and don’t really know the Truth (“you ate and drank with us…Luke 13:26)?

Makes me shudder…

 

[SeriousQuestion]

Being a pillar of the truth is different than being the Truth and the word Church isn’t being used to describe the members.

 

[TULIPed]

True that. It was implied in the post that I replied to (or perhaps I took it wrongly, if so, my apologies) that the “source of truth” is the Church. I would argue that the “source of truth” is Jesus Christ, given that he is truth. Again - as I mentioned in my post - a slight amendment. What lawyers would call a “nit”.

 

[Pattylt]

Simpleguy01, basically it boils down to 2000 years of Bishops and Popes interpreting scripture or Martin Luther interpreting scripture. If you don’t think Saints and Mary hear your prayers, don’t pray to them.

And I’m not even Christian and I can see what you are trying to do!

 

[Limoncello4021]

He’s heard this many times now on this thread and does not want to accept it.
Yes, there’s an agenda here.

 

[simpleguy01]

The purpose of studying the scriptures is not to find out whether a bishop or priest is telling the truth but to see the scripture in the light of what the Living Church has explained it to be rather than in the Darkness imagining what scripture might mean or could mean

and it also shows that people who are in position can make mistakes. Being careful i think would not be a bad idea.
Regarding Paul not answering Peter with scripture would, i think, be inaccurate. If you look at it, the bible was not complete at that time. But if you look further down the verse from 15 onwards, those verses pertains to their teachings that Paul lovingly reminded Peter, which now became scripture.

 

[simpleguy01]

The Catholic Church put together the Bible, so I trust its authority to interpret it, above your authority, any day.

regarding this statement:
The problem is not the Bible quotes, but the authority to interpret them. The Catholic Church put together the Bible, so I trust its authority to interpret it, above your authority, any day.
Thanks for your honest reply, i appreciate your conviction.
Altho, the bible did state that we have to properly “handle” the word of God.
2 Timothy 2:15
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as an approved worker who has nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of truth with precision.

thus my sharing on my take on that verse. do let me know how you interpret it, I would like to hear your side.

 

[simpleguy01]

simpleguy01:

Just dont want my prayers be like lottery. I may or may not get an answer.

Let’s say for a moment that you’re right. You think God can’t hear your prayers simply because you asked someone else to pray for you? That God would say, “Oh, I’m not granting your request because you asked for someone else to help pray to me for you”? Do you see the problems this holds?

Yup, I do, but I dont have issue with God not hearing our prayers, he does, no question about it. Its mainly having to ask Mary and dead saints to be intercessor for our prayers to Christ? mainly asking does it hold ground or not.