Question regarding prayers to Mary and saints

[simpleguy01]

[Not to be flippant but that’s like saying the gospel truth is irrelevant.

I dont think so, because gospel truth is not owned by any denomination, but by God.
which he freely gives to whoever would ask for wisdom in understanding His word.
And application of the gospel truth would eventually lead to a relationship with Him.

 

[simpleguy01]

thank you John for your honest reply. I respect your beliefs.
In my opinion, Peter did a mistake. But i do want your opinion on those verses mentioned.
Did Peter made a mistake on what he did, that also caused some of the jew believers to follow him?
Yes or No?

 

[simpleguy01]

300 years later another group in Council inspired by the Holy Spirit chose the description of that first Council as part of their scripture and so the book of Acts in the book of Galatians were now part of the Bible because a group of Bishops a group of Apostles inspired by the Holy Spirit with their Pope chose it.
John Martin

Thank you for the explanation.

 

[simpleguy01]

Summary of discussion:​

I started this thread with an open mind. i wanted to see if non-catholics are missing out when not praying through saints and Mary.

what Ive learned so far from this discussion:
Asking prayers through Saints and Mary - Taught in the catholic doctrine
Deuterocanonical books - has shown verses of dead righteous praying for Jews
Bible - Given the sources provided, i could not find one that answers my question:
(as it evolved to “Is it Gods will to ask for prayers from Mary and dead Saints”

My notion is that if this(asking for prayer from dead saints and mary) was a big deal for Catholics and has been endorsed in the catholic doctrine, and play a major part in their faith, and God’s will, surely there should be a verse that commands/recommends this in the bible(Believing God would not want non-catholics left out). Thus making me ask “where is your source” most of the time, but could not find one that answers it. Maybe i was expecting too much? Maybe.

But i want to thank those who have provided verses/sources. It made me research and think alot. I greatly appreciate the help!

But here are some bible verses that came close to the topic:

Luke 16:27-28 (thanks todd_eston)
27 “The rich man[a] said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house— 28 because I have five brothers—to warn them, so that they won’t end up in this place of torture, too.’

Personal opinion: Reading the chapter, yes, the rich man did pray. But it only shows to me that where people go(whether hell or heaven) they retain previous memories. It did not show, nor say he hears the current prayers of his family so he could pray/echo to God what they prayed for.

1 Samuel 28 (Saul Talks with (prophet) Samuel’s Ghost)
thanks todd_eston for the source)
Personal opinion: - reading this chapter made me a bit afraid and here is what i found out
1 Samuel 28:9 - practicing talking to dead spirits will get them killed.

• i think they got this practice from Exodus 22:18 and Leviticus 19:31
  Exodus 22:18 : You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
  Leviticus 19:31 : Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.
  1 Samuel 28:15 - dead prophet samuel had a bad tone in answering Saul (Maybe he doesn’t want to be bothered?)
  15 “Why are you bothering me by bringing me up like this?” Samuel asked.

and because of Saul’s actions he was put to death: 1 Chronicles 10:9-14

conclusion​

The 1 samuel 28 chapter source made me rethink of my view on asking prayer from dead saints and Mary, as the bible is giving an opposite opinion on the matter.

To all catholics(and non-catholics) that has given their opinion on this thread, I respect your beliefs and views, and I am grateful for your time in letting me know your thoughts. Altho we did not arrive to a common ground, then lets agree to disagree. =)

 

[Dan_Defender]

In this context, handling the word of truth means spreading the gospel message orally, no Bible was put together yet. So to use this to prove Sola Scriptura is very much a stretch to say the least.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

People still have contradictory interpretations.

 

[simpleguy01]

kindly see my reply on:

Question regarding prayers to Mary and saints Non-Catholic Religions

Summary of discussion: I started this thread with an open mind. i wanted to see if non-catholics are missing out when not praying through saints and Mary. what Ive learned so far from this discussion: Asking prayers through Saints and Mary - Taught in the catholic doctrine Deuterocanonical books - has shown verses of dead righteous praying for Jews Bible - Given the sources provided, i could not find one that answers my question: (as it evolved to “Is it Gods will to ask for prayers from…

 

[Todd_Easton]

1 Samuel 28 (Saul Talks with (prophet) Samuel’s Ghost)
thanks todd_eston for the source)
Personal opinion: - reading this chapter made me a bit afraid and here is what i found out
1 Samuel 28:9 - practicing talking to dead spirits will get them killed.

• i think they got this practice from Exodus 22:18 and Leviticus 19:31
  Exodus 22:18 : You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
  Leviticus 19:31 : Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.
  1 Samuel 28:15 - dead prophet samuel had a bad tone in answering Saul (Maybe he doesn’t want to be bothered?)
  15 “Why are you bothering me by bringing me up like this?” Samuel asked.

and because of Saul’s actions he was put to death: 1 Chronicles 10:9-14

conclusion​

The 1 samuel 28 chapter source made me rethink of my view on asking prayer from dead saints and Mary, as the bible is giving an opposite opinion on the matter.

13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness; he was unfaithful to the Lord in that he did not keep the command of the Lord, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance, 14 and did not seek guidance from the Lord. Therefore the Lord slew him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse. (1 Chronicles 10:13-14)

Saul didn’t die because he talked with the dead prophet Samuel. The Bible says Saul died because “he did not keep the command of the Lord” to kill all the Amalekites and all their livestock (see 1 Samuel 15) and because he “consulted a medium.”

Mediums cannot really conjure up the dead but open themselves up to demons. The dead prophet Samuel appeared not by the power of the medium but by the power of God. If all communication with the dead is sinful, then Jesus, Peter, James and John sinned because Jesus spoke with the dead prophet Moses within their hearing at the Transfiguration. (Matthew 17:3-4; Mark 9:4-5) If all communication with the dead is sinful, then the three holy men in the fiery furnace sinned when they prayerfully addressed the dead and said, “Spirits and souls of the just, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.” (Daniel 3:86 in the Catholic Bible) If all communication with the dead is sinful, then Peter sinned when he "turned to her [dead] body and said, “Tabitha, rise up.” (Acts 9:40)

The use of mediums was suppose to establish two-way communication with the dead in order to learn occult (hidden) information, especially about the future. On the other hand, Catholic prayer to the saints in heaven for their intercession on their behalf with God is one-way communication with no expectation that the saint will appear to them and/or speak back to them, though God has on rare occasions allowed the dead to appear and speak to the living, as when the dead prophet Samuel spoke with Saul, in Judas Maccabeus’ vision of the dead high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah in 2 Maccabees 15, the vision of the dead prophet Moses at the Transfiguration in the Gospels, and the various visions of the righteous dead in John’s Revelation.

 

[PaladinSword]

At risk of being rude I’ll point out that OP established this thread out of a seemingly innocent question of doctrine when it comes to the communion of saints and I no longer think that is the case.

OP we have all given you more than satisfactory answers.

Sola scriptura and sola fide solo deo Gloria would be awesomely liberating practices if they were theologically sound because we wouldn’t need to go to church or have any authority. We could judge ourselves. Unfortunately as the modern protestants have no clue where Christianity came from it is impossible to have these types of discussions and will not listen to the reason of traditional Catholicism because well it seems ones mind is simply made up. And I suppose it’s convenient.

The problem with Protestantism isn’t the desire to reform the church… it’s that no one can agree on ANYTHING.

The bible is just a part of an already existing tradition. That is Catholicism. Anyone anywhere received Christ through some how the ministry of the Catholic church on a spiritual level. Whether you know it or not. Without the Catholic church there would be no Christianity.

It is old multifaceted but it has cohesiveness and agreements that discussions like this undermine.

There was a time a long time ago where there was no such thing as a denomination.

There was no separation. No disagreement.

You are taking a beautiful wedding cake and calling it a peanut butter sandwich… completely oblivious that anyone is getting married.

If you gave the bible to aliens on another planet how would they react? It is only through the ministry of the Catholic church we even have an idea how to use a bible let alone it exists in the first place.

It’s threads like this and poor catechisis and the state of our culture that make me want to become a pagan or an atheist.

The only authentic… most authentic Chistianity you will find is in the remnants of the Catholic church. End of story. How we made it this far who knows.

I think our grandparents had it better.

 

[PaladinSword]

Also I think this is a primarily American problem but that is just my opinion.

 

[John_Martin]

The book of Judges is an image of what can happen when each decides on his own interpretation .
Three times in Judges it is proclaimed like a chorus: “In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.”

But the King has come in the line of David. He has has appointed his Ministers to shepherd us and we do not aimlessly pick our own pastures. They give us the Scripture AND tell us what it means so that we lack in nothing, but are equipped for all good works and for service in the will of our Father.

Without our shepherds we would each unendingly search the Bible to try to prove the"best" way to pray, but never confirm it but always ask, “show me a verse in the Bible but I will decide if you understand the verse you show me.”

No. We will follow our shepherds and pray as they faithfully teach us.
John Martin

 

[JonNC]

He did so at the First Council in Jerusalem and the decision was made by Peter not by Paul to finally accept the Gentiles without circumcision after Paul made his argument.

Paul argued to the council, the Council made the decision along with Peter, and the letter of outcome of the council was sent to the Gentiles welcoming them without circumcision

Correct, and not Peter alone.
One could just as correctly say, “the Council made the decision along with James…”

 

[JonNC]

Everything you quoted from the Bible was chosen by Catholic bishops in the living tradition of the 4th century to ‘be’ THE BIBLE’, and explicitly confirmed at Trent by the living tradition then.
You are trusting Catholics if you consider the Bible to be inspired by God
Welcome to “trusting those who are sent bearing Good News.”
John Martin

It should be noted that Hippo, Carthage and Rome, along with Trent, are local councils applying only to the western Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

That said, Reformation era traditions as well as later western traditions should recognize our debt of gratitude to the early Church

 

[AugustTherese]

along with Trent, are local councils applying only to the western Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Trent is an Ecumenical Council. Only those who have successfully convened Coucils are the ones who alone have the authority to define what is local and what is Ecumenical.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

along with Trent, are local councils applying only to the western Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Trent is an Ecumenical Council. Only those who have successfully convened Coucils are the ones who alone have the authority to define what is local and what is Ecumenical.

It isn’t ecumenical if the patriarchs don’t agree on it. It is binding only to the bishops in communion with Rome, which is not the whole Church.

 

[PennyinCanada]

We cannot comprehend the incredible humility of God, to take on human form, to be born of flesh, and be with us. To hide his divinity from us and blend in with the crowd. No blinding glory shining from him.

His humility is again evident when we ask a saint to intercede for us and the prayer is answered. Everything is answered in God and through God, yet he is very ok with the ‘credit’ of the answered prayer to go to a mere human. So even if the saint who died is continually gazing at the face of God and maybe doesn’t even know we asked them to pray for us, God still answers those prayers. Because he’s so humble and also I think that he wants that distance between our family in God to be closer. They may have lived 500 years ago, or 2000 years ago, but we who are here consider them our dear friend who loves and cares for us. Who helps us when perhaps no help is to be had. This suits God too.

How do we know God is ok with us asking for the deceased saints to pray for us? First of all, because after they have died, the church examines 2 circumstances to determine that there is no other explanation for the event other than divine intervention. Educated people, thoroughly examined. After much attention to detail and events, only then are they given the title of saint. Let us give thanks and praise to God that he is so very kind to us, so very humble, that he does these marvelous things for us. We, as humans, are not like that at all, are we? We love being thanked and praised by others but God models for us something else. Hiddeness, humility, modesty. It causes me to be amazed at the incredible kindness of God.

 

[FreeMe]

Mary did the will of God by allowing Jesus to be crucified even though it caused her great pain. It is consistent with Mary’s answer at the Annunciation. Mary also didn’t pray for Jesus to not be crucified so your premise is already flawed.

Nothing written in your Bible does not mean that Mary never implored and begged her God to not allow her son to be crucified… Even Jesus was still hanging on the cross near death. “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”, (‘My Lord, my Lord, why have you forsaken me?’)

It is quite clear that Jesus himself was not willing to die on the cross.

In the Psalm says: “Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer, and by night, but I find no rest. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

And what makes Christian believe that Mary and Jesus as intermediaries can help you?

 

[PaladinSword]

He was willing. And theology states that if it was only Mary she would assist in crucifying him because it was his duty to be sacrificed. CHRIST was not a wuss.

 

[Fauken]

Nothing written in your Bible does not mean that Mary never implored and begged her God to not allow her son to be crucified…

And we should take your argument from silence as valid, why? I could also say that Jesus praised the pious practice of eating bacon every Sunday, since after all, there is nothing in the Bible to contradict it.

It is quite clear that Jesus himself was not willing to die on the cross.

On the contrary, He was.

John 18:11:

“18:11 Jesus therefore said to Peter: Put up thy sword into the scabbard. The chalice which my father hath given me, shall I not drink it?”

Matthew:

“26:39 And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt.”

“26:41 Watch ye: and pray that ye enter not into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

And what makes Christian believe that Mary and Jesus as intermediaries can help you?

Well, Jesus is God for one, so who better than to help us?

And no one knows God as well as Mary does.

 

[JonNC]

Merriam-Webster - Ecumenical
TWO DEFINITIONS
a : of, relating to, or representing the whole of a body of churches
[the “body” in this case is the Roman Catholic Church, meaning all the Roman Catholic Churches in the world, rather than a regional or local selection or Catholic Churches. These are the 21 Ecumenical Councils called by the various Popes of the times, and are Binding on Roman Catholics from all the Churches in attendance - does not include “protesting groups of peoples”, usually known as “Protestants”.]

Other than the first seven, they don’t cover any part of the Universal Church other than those in communion with the Pope.
Ecumenical used to mean all of the patriarchates of the Church. Your definition means the same thing as local council.