Which of the Eastern patriarchs approved Trent? If they didn’t, it isn’t ecumenical.
The 7th council was the last truly ecumenical council. Until the Schism ends, I don’t see how an ecumenical council can occur
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The 7th council was the last truly ecumenical council. Until the Schism ends, I don’t see how an ecumenical council can occur
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John_Martin
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You have to read Merriam-Webster’s primary definition of ecumenical in order to understand how it can happen
if you do not believe Merriam-Webster, then you’re objection is understandable
if you do not believe Merriam-Webster, then you’re objection is understandable
Merriam Webster wasn’t around when ecumenical councils started. The early Church didn’t look to Merriam Webster.
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Usagi
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I think we can all agree that the first seven ecumenical councils were special, in that they involved the undivided Church and most all Christians acknowledge their teachings (even if they don’t acknowledge the councils themselves explicitly) … but surely you are aware that the Catholic Church has held an additional fourteen councils that are commonly termed ecumenical over the centuries.
That said, some of us do make too much of the fourth-century local councils, as though no one knew what the Bible was before the bishops declared it, when the OT was of course complete by Jesus’ time and the NT within the first century, and at least most of the books were undisputed in their canonicity. Hippo and Carthage are useful for demonstrating that the OT deuterocanon was accepted by Christians/Catholics far earlier than Trent and some time after Judaism had dropped it, but it shouldn’t be taken to mean that Christians didn’t at least mostly know/agree what was Scripture before that.
That said, some of us do make too much of the fourth-century local councils, as though no one knew what the Bible was before the bishops declared it, when the OT was of course complete by Jesus’ time and the NT within the first century, and at least most of the books were undisputed in their canonicity. Hippo and Carthage are useful for demonstrating that the OT deuterocanon was accepted by Christians/Catholics far earlier than Trent and some time after Judaism had dropped it, but it shouldn’t be taken to mean that Christians didn’t at least mostly know/agree what was Scripture before that.
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OriginalGabrielof12
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The book of Revelations reveals the heavenly Liturgy, that mirrors the Liturgy (Mass) God ordained and fixed here on earth. In short, the heavenly eternal Liturgy is outside of time and space, where the Lamb is standing looking as though slain in the presence of the Martyr’s, Saints, Virgin Priest and Angels. The heavenly Liturgy while in the Presence of God offers up our prayers and incense to God our Father.
God’s liturgy (Mass) on earth enter’s into the Heavenly Holy of Holies. It is here in the Liturgy where the Church Triumphant (in heaven) offers up all our prayers and where the Church Militant (on earth) joins the Heavenly Choir when we worship and offer up our prayers and Pslams.
Hebrews gives a brief description here.
Hebrews 12; 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us 2 while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith.
18 You have not approached that which could be touched and a blazing fire and gloomy darkness and storm 19 and a trumpet blast and a voice speaking words such that those who heard begged that no message be further addressed to them, 20 for they could not bear to hear the command: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it shall be stoned. so fearful was the spectacle that Moses said, “I am terrified and trembling.”22 No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,23 and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven,[*] and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, 24 and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not reject the one who speaks. For if they did not escape when they refused the one who warned them on earth, how much more in our case if we turn away from the one who warns from heaven.
God’s liturgy (Mass) on earth enter’s into the Heavenly Holy of Holies. It is here in the Liturgy where the Church Triumphant (in heaven) offers up all our prayers and where the Church Militant (on earth) joins the Heavenly Choir when we worship and offer up our prayers and Pslams.
Hebrews gives a brief description here.
Hebrews 12; 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us 2 while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith.
18 You have not approached that which could be touched and a blazing fire and gloomy darkness and storm 19 and a trumpet blast and a voice speaking words such that those who heard begged that no message be further addressed to them, 20 for they could not bear to hear the command: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it shall be stoned. so fearful was the spectacle that Moses said, “I am terrified and trembling.”22 No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,23 and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven,[*] and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, 24 and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not reject the one who speaks. For if they did not escape when they refused the one who warned them on earth, how much more in our case if we turn away from the one who warns from heaven.
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OriginalGabrielof12
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Not true JonNC. The Catholic Church had councils long before Constantinople came into existence and established the faith against Gnosticism and Marcionism with the Apostles Creed and appproved or ratified by the Bishop’s of Rome.
Remember, After Constantine made Constantinople his capital and placed a Patriarch there. The Eastern Church’s became Imperial Church’s. The Bishop of Rome never conceded to this Imperial Church along with many Eastern Saints who supported the Bishop of Rome
When Constantine supported the Eastern Church’s councils.They are at first considered Regional councils. Until the Bishop of Rome ratifies their findings. This has always been the case since apostolic times. Although the Orthodox would argue holding to their Imperial Church understanding.
God freed the Bishop of Rome from secular powers to bind and loose upon the whole earth. The Bishop of Rome can call a council and call it ecumenical without any imperial or secular support.
Thus it is good that the Orthodox hold strong to their imperial Councils ratified by the Bishop’s of Rome. The Orthodox Church’s have not the power without the Bishop of Rome to call an ecumenical council that places her finding’s binding on the whole Church.
So, yes the Ecumenical or synod councils approved and or called by the Bishop’s of Rome (Peter’s Chair) supported by the collegiate of Bishop’s world wide is a valid council. Although some Orthodox Leaders will object, because their secular leaders prevented their attendance or they objected to the authority of Peter’s Chair. Where we find ourselves today in schism.
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TheOldColonel
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In heaven, they have a 777G Router and free Wifi. They also have unlimited satellite channels as long as it doesn’t rain. 
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OriginalGabrielof12
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JonNC. the Church where the Bishop of Rome presides is the earlier Church long before the imperial Eastern Church’s came into existence. She suffered and lived through the persecution. After the persecution was lifted, the Eastern Church’s became very wealthy and powerful under Imperial rule. The Bishop’s of Rome were left unaided and persecuted during this Imperial tenure.
I think you have only heard the Orthodox Imperial version of Church history and her councils. If you look into the background of these Imperial supported Ecumenical councils, you will find the Bishop’s of Rome coming under attack and many Eastern Church Father’s who supported the Bishop of Rome come under attack and deposed from their Imperial seats. Most Orthodox do not entertain this truth and or they have an Imperial Church view of the Circumstances.
I think you have only heard the Orthodox Imperial version of Church history and her councils. If you look into the background of these Imperial supported Ecumenical councils, you will find the Bishop’s of Rome coming under attack and many Eastern Church Father’s who supported the Bishop of Rome come under attack and deposed from their Imperial seats. Most Orthodox do not entertain this truth and or they have an Imperial Church view of the Circumstances.
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MichelleGeorge
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Why wouldn’t they be humans? They don’t cease being human. They don’t turn into angels. Or dogs or cats… but if they are in the presence of God, they are not as limited as we are in the flesh on earth. They are limited but not like us. We’re kinda stuck in a material world at the moment.
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AugustTherese
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Neither was the Orthodox Church.
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PJM
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[1] No they are NOT God’s
They ARE however Saints: that is by a process that for a long time now has required miracles {normally 2 of them} which ARE God approved {God does them.
[2] No they are no more “humans”: They are Rational and Immortal Living Souls {Gen 6:7}
But Souls have greatly enhanced capabilities; so SIMILAR to Jesus; can and Do accomplish incomprehensible GOOD-things FOR THE GLORY OF GOD, and in the name of Jesus.
[3] ALL prayers are heard; but the answers can be dependent of the request actually being for our Good.
Yes
No
Not now; or perhaps not in the expected manner
[4] Miraculously
God Bless you,
Patrick
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Hodos
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“This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently he is able to save completely those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” – Epistle to the Hebrews
If Christ is the perfect high priest who is continually before God as our intercessor, and who is able to save us completely, why would we pray to them to intercede on our behalf? This passage is particularly relevant here where the author makes the case that the former high priests who had to offer sacrifices for their own sins, and were prevented by death from being able to continue in their priesthood, have been replaced by a better priest, one who saves completely for all time.
If Christ is the perfect high priest who is continually before God as our intercessor, and who is able to save us completely, why would we pray to them to intercede on our behalf? This passage is particularly relevant here where the author makes the case that the former high priests who had to offer sacrifices for their own sins, and were prevented by death from being able to continue in their priesthood, have been replaced by a better priest, one who saves completely for all time.
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AugustTherese
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Pray for me. Wait, nevermind, I guess you can’t because only Christ intercedes.
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Theo2
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The our father! Abba father. Or Da da!
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TULIPed
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And yet…
“ Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”
I wonder how your position might be best held together with this verse from 1st Corinthians?
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Sbee0
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Yes - it’s about the doctrine of the Communion of Saints and I guess does sound foreign to a non Catholic if they don’t understand what it is.
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TULIPed
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From the Unitatis Redintegratio:
“The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect.”
Perhaps accusations of heresy are a bit over the top, no? At the very least, they don’t sound very kind to me.
“The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect.”
Perhaps accusations of heresy are a bit over the top, no? At the very least, they don’t sound very kind to me.
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