Question regarding the Immaculate Conception

  • Thread starter Thread starter LionHeart777
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

LionHeart777

Guest
I was under the impression that, regarding the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, St. Mary was preserved from original sin, but that she still had free will regarding obeying God. That is to say that it was possible for her to sin but she chose not to. Can someone please verify this for me.

thanks,

LH
 
That is correct according to my understanding. If Mary was not free to obey or not, she would not be much of a role model.
 
LionHeart777 said:
I was under the impression that, regarding the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, St. Mary was preserved from original sin, but that she still had free will regarding obeying God. That is to say that it was possible for her to sin but she chose not to. Can someone please verify this for me.

thanks,

LH
Click to expand...
Yes, of course she had free will-all humans do. However, without the stain of Original Sin, she would not have suffered from Concupiscence.
God Bless,
Pakesh
 
She did indeed have a choice. Remember when the angel Gabriel delivered his message to her, she "“Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it to me according to your word.” She could have said no, but she didn’t.
 
The superabundance of Grace enabled her to freely exercise her free will and say yes.

This is the same way God gives us Actual Grace at some moments in time to enable or cause us to do whatever His will for us is at that moment and this happens without interfering with completely free exercise of our wills. God will not force our wills but He can and does influence our acts of will through Actual Grace.

:):)🙂
 
LionHeart777 said:
I was under the impression that, regarding the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, St. Mary was preserved from original sin, but that she still had free will regarding obeying God. That is to say that it was possible for her to sin but she chose not to. Can someone please verify this for me.

thanks,

LH
Click to expand...
This is my thinking as well. Here is a link that may provide some verification for you. I’m sure others will be able to provide more, if you like. 👍
 
LionHeart777 said:
I was under the impression that, regarding the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, St. Mary was preserved from original sin, but that she still had free will regarding obeying God. That is to say that it was possible for her to sin but she chose not to. Can someone please verify this for me.

thanks,

LH
Click to expand...
Nobody can verify that; it is a completely unverifiable doctrine. There is not a shred of evidence that supports the opinion of Mary being immaculately conceived.
 
Atemi said:
She wasn’t asked. She was told.
…
Click to expand...
That would violate her gift of free will and God would never do that. He wants us to come to Him and obey Him with complete, absolute freedom to say no if that is what we choose to do.

Remember, Mary asked only one question “How can this be…” and after the angel’s explanation she said, “Be it done to me according to thy word.” She still had the option of saying no to what God was asking of her but instead chose to do His will …

Every time we make a choice for a “good” or a “bad” we have the same complete absolute freedom to act.

God gives everyone those actual graces us to help us choose the “good.”

God bless…🙂

Bussi
 
Brian_Culliton said:
Nobody can verify that; it is a completely unverifiable doctrine. There is not a shred of evidence that supports the opinion of Mary being immaculately conceived.
Click to expand...
There is plenty of evidence. Many ignor the evidence because it points in different direction than their already made up conclusions.
 
Brian_Culliton said:
Nobody can verify that; it is a completely unverifiable doctrine. There is not a shred of evidence that supports the opinion of Mary being immaculately conceived.
Click to expand...
Maybe that’s true if you hold to a crazy Bible-only thought.:rolleyes:
 
Brian_Culliton said:
Nobody can verify that; it is a completely unverifiable doctrine. There is not a shred of evidence that supports the opinion of Mary being immaculately conceived.
Click to expand...
Another thought to chew on. Why didn’t Gabriel first address her by name? He said “Hail Full of Grace.” Anytime someone is given a new name in Scripture is significant (Abraham and Peter for example). How was Mary full of Grace before Jesus accomplished his Saving work, huh? Good food for thought:thumbsup:
 
Brian_Culliton said:
Nobody can verify that; it is a completely unverifiable doctrine. There is not a shred of evidence that supports the opinion of Mary being immaculately conceived.
Click to expand...
You mean besides the fact that Christ promised that His church would never teach false doctrine, and his church teaches as defined doctrine that it’s so.
 
Brian_Culliton said:
Okay, provide evidence from church history then.
Click to expand...
I did some research on the subject in a book I have: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. It is available from TAN BOOkS AND PUBLISHERS, Inc., and most likely other sources. (maybe a used copy from Amazon.com or in in a library somewhere).

If you can get your hands on a copy, go to pages 199-202 and you will find the statement;

“Mary was conceived without sin,” which is followed by “De Fide,”

'De Fide," means this is what the whole of the Catholic Church has come to believe and are required to believe after centuries of study, contemplation, and vigorous discussions leading to an explanation of the dogma, proof from Holy Writ and Tradition, the historical development since the 12th century A. D.

On December 8, 1854, Pope Pius IX, havng consulted the entire episcopate (all the bishops of the Church), and speaking “Ex Cathedra,” (from the Chair) declared the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception to be dogma of the Faith.

A bit of explanation is necessary here. Ex Cathedra, “from the chair of St. Peter,” has a very specific meaning in that all our popes are in a sense are another “Peter” in the same sense as our first pope, Peter who walked with Jesus, was taught by Jesus, and appointed by Jesus as our first pope, (All bishops in the Church are apostles in the same sense as the original 12)

Remember what Jesus said to Peter:

“I give you the keys to the kingdom and he who hears you hears me.”

He also changed peter’s name from Simon to Peter which has always had a very specific meaning similar to God changing Abram to Abraham, etc. This has always had the effect of being appointed to a great task. He only did this for Peter and not the other remaining eleven.

I must add that this is all from my own perspective as a believing Roman Catholic of over 70 years. I have a scientific academic background which means my thinking processes are investigative in nature.

Even so, I must still follow the advice of: St. Augustine, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe,” and vigorously pursue understanding my faith to better my belief in it.

God bless…🙂

Bussi
 
Atemi said:
She wasn’t asked. She was told.

…
Click to expand...
i agree. but she obeyed. luke 1:38
unlike Eve who was also told, but disobeyed.

…thou shalt always gather in those things which are desired by God, which the Serpent cannot reach, and to which deception does not approach; nor is Eve then corrupted, but is trusted as a virgin; and salvation is manifested, and the Apostles are filled with understanding, and the Passover of the Lord advances, and the choirs are gathered together, and are arranged in proper order, and the Word rejoices in teaching the saints,–by whom the Father is glorified: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus earlychristianwritings.com/text/diognetus-roberts.html (ealry to late 2nd century)

*For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. And if the former did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness169 (advocata) of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. *Irenaeus of Lyons Against Heresies c. 175-185 CE book v earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html
 
Bussi said:
I did some research on the subject in a book I have: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. It is available from TAN BOOkS AND PUBLISHERS, Inc., and most likely other sources. (maybe a used copy from Amazon.com or in in a library somewhere).

If you can get your hands on a copy, go to pages 199-202 and you will find the statement;

“Mary was conceived without sin,” which is followed by “De Fide,”

'De Fide," means this is what the whole of the Catholic Church has come to believe and are required to believe after centuries of study, contemplation, and vigorous discussions leading to an explanation of the dogma, proof from Holy Writ and Tradition, the historical development since the 12th century A. D.

On December 8, 1854, Pope Pius IX, havng consulted the entire episcopate (all the bishops of the Church), and speaking “Ex Cathedra,” (from the Chair) declared the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception to be dogma of the Faith.

A bit of explanation is necessary here. Ex Cathedra, “from the chair of St. Peter,” has a very specific meaning in that all our popes are in a sense are another “Peter” in the same sense as our first pope, Peter who walked with Jesus, was taught by Jesus, and appointed by Jesus as our first pope, (All bishops in the Church are apostles in the same sense as the original 12)

Remember what Jesus said to Peter:

“I give you the keys to the kingdom and he who hears you hears me.”

He also changed peter’s name from Simon to Peter which has always had a very specific meaning similar to God changing Abram to Abraham, etc. This has always had the effect of being appointed to a great task. He only did this for Peter and not the other remaining eleven.

I must add that this is all from my own perspective as a believing Roman Catholic of over 70 years. I have a scientific academic background which means my thinking processes are investigative in nature.

Even so, I must still follow the advice of: St. Augustine, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe,” and vigorously pursue understanding my faith to better my belief in it.

God bless…🙂

Bussi
Click to expand...
And there you have it. The doctrine developed out of the middle ages and was eventually ratified by the leadership you place your trust in. There is no proof from tradition; the apostles never handed it down and the early church never taught anything like it.

You can believe everything your leaders tell you to believe that’s your choice, but the fact is, no evidence or proof exists in support of this doctrine.
 
Brian_Culliton said:
Nobody can verify that; it is a completely unverifiable doctrine. There is not a shred of evidence that supports the opinion of Mary being immaculately conceived.
Click to expand...
Brian Culliton,

I think that there is some evidence of St. Mary being sinless from some Early Church Father’s. It is worth mentioning that both Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism teach that the Virgin did not sin; they just go about it in a different way. Both also teach that she is the “New Eve”, as did some Early Church Fathers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top