Question to all Non-Catholic Christians: Did Christ provide any instructions on how the faith should be authoritatively passed on over time?

[MT1926]

This guy wasn’t an apostle, where did his authority come from? He was working in Jesus’s name. With the holy spirit. That is where ultimate authority comes from.

I don’t know if I would agree that this guy has the authority the OP is asking about. This verse only mentions the guy was casting out a demon (doing a good work), it doesn’t say anything about the guying teaching and passing on the faith.

I think we need to really think about all of Jesus words here. The guy was casting out a demon, he wasn’t doing something contrary to Jesus teaching, therefor he wasn’t against them.

However, what if this guy casting out a demon also taught people that they needed to be circumcised to be saved? (Acts 15).

Would Jesus have wanted the Apostles to stop him now?

Just because someone has the ability to preach Jesus and can give an eloquent Gospel message doesn’t mean they have ultimate authority.

If I go out and start up a church in Jesus name and start feeding the hungry and clothing the homeless, etc…that doesn’t give me ultimate authority to interpret the Scriptures however I believe the Holy Spirit is guiding me.

Basically, all I am getting at is Jesus says nothing about authority in this verse, all He is saying is this man is doing a good work, leave him be.

God Bless

 

[JonNC]

Agree, @JonNC. It’s the definition of ‘apostolic succession’ that would vary.

With Anglicans and I assume Orthodox, the main difference would be a rejection of the papal claim of universal jurisdiction
With Lutherans, the use of presbyter ordination, though even that is considered an exception due to the unwillingness of bishops to ordain their priests. And some Lutherans do ordain by bishops.

 

[Unnamed]

Question to all Non-Catholic Christians: Did Christ provide any instructions on how the faith should be authoritatively passed on over time? Non-Catholic Religions

JN 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ah but he said this specifically to the Apostles which (the early Catholic Church). Many of Jesus’ commands and teachings were meant for the apostles and not for everyone. (e.g., I give you the keys of the kingdom, will be with you to the end of the age ect.) concerning such matters of teaching authority and divine assistance.

 

[Unnamed]

Question to all Non-Catholic Christians: Did Christ provide any instructions on how the faith should be authoritatively passed on over time? Non-Catholic Religions

My answer - Jesus never mentioned authoritative transfers of power. He said that Peter would be the foundation and was given the keys to the kingdom. Other than that, Jesus did not outline how long Peter was in charge, how such authority would be shared, how to elect others, etc. He did not say either that Peter’s authority was to be handed to a single successor, as opposed to a group of bishops. Given that lack of detail, I’d rather not speculate as to how Jesus wanted everthing done. I rely…

Interesting that you are saying that Jesus would ignore such an important point as this. Of course he mentioned transfer of power as he gave Authority to Peter and the Apostles. That is a huge transfer of power.

 

[Unnamed]

Question to all Non-Catholic Christians: Did Christ provide any instructions on how the faith should be authoritatively passed on over time? Non-Catholic Religions

This has been on my mind lately: John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him because he is not a disciple along with us.” But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for whoever is not against you is for you.” Luke 9:49‭-‬50 This guy wasn’t an apostle, where did his authority come from? He was working in Jesus’s name. With the holy spirit. That is where ultimate authority comes from. This does not take away from the great commission. Jesus is…

That is a good point and I am not denying that Non-Catholic Christians can attain salvation or have grace.

 

[Unnamed]

Question to all Non-Catholic Christians: Did Christ provide any instructions on how the faith should be authoritatively passed on over time? Non-Catholic Religions

I go so, the other may come… He sent the Holy Spirit. He invited ppl to become believers. Lovingly, they passed on their testimonies which were received by the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

He sent the Holy Spirit in a very excessive way to the early Church in Pentecost. Sure other Christians can have the Holy Spirit but Pentecost was special. Jesus never mentioned passing on testimonials to other believers rather Jesus told Peter things like feed my sheep.

 

[Unnamed]

Question to all Non-Catholic Christians: Did Christ provide any instructions on how the faith should be authoritatively passed on over time? Non-Catholic Religions

Jesus left no “instruction manual” , including the Bible; when He ascended to Heaven He left a “Church” and Her Majesterium

Yes Brian you speak wisely, but I was intending the question to be aimed at non-Catholic Christians.

 

[Unnamed]

So far the main answer I have received is Jesus giving the Holy Spirit but remember Jesus breathed on the Apostles to give them the Holy Spirit and gave them the major outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Pentecost. He did not give the Holy Spirit in this way to any other people. One way one can look at this is to take this early Church and step it forward through time and see that through history that this transfer of power was accomplished by the laying on of hands to give this Holy Spirit to the successors of Peter. So this is one of the answers to my original question. Jesus gave the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to the early Church and gave it authority of binding and loosing. Here are some hints.

* You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church
* Keys of the Kingdom
* Whoever receives you receives me.
* Jesus said, “Go and teach them and make disciples”
* I will be with you until the end of the age.
* Gates of hell would not prevail.

So as you can see and my point is that Christ gave all power and authority to the early Universal (also known as Catholic) Church. How do I know what the message of Christ is and how is it transmitted to me? Christ entrusted it to the Church.

Non Catholic Christians have no answers to my original question without referring to the above, but even the above points to the validity of Catholic Apostolic succession.

 

[JonNC]

So as you can see and my point is that Christ gave all power and authority to the early Universal (also known as Catholic) Church. How do I know what the message of Christ is and how is it transmitted to me? Christ entrusted it to the Church.

Yes He did. And it still is, even though human sin has resulted in division and schism in His One Church.

Non Catholic Christians have no answers to my original question without referring to the above, but even the above points to the validity of Catholic Apostolic succession.

Why would there be a need for an alternate response? The differences, at least for the ones I’ve mentioned, have nothing to do with that (which is scriptural). This issue boils down to the claim of universal jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome.

 

[steve-b]

Unnamed:

I would be interested in seeing what the answers are that non-Catholic Christians come up with on this. Please focus on Christ’s teachings in the Bible only. This question is from Dr David Anders @ Called to Communion that he likes to ask Non-Catholic Christians. The Catholic Church has answers to these, but I wanted to see what other Christians come up with. Please list out your thoughts on how Jesus intended the authoritative transmission of the faith to take place over time.

The bolded betrays a possible bait.

Since the topic is focusing on non-Catholic Christians response to the question, and non-Catholic Christians believe in sola scriptura, why then is the bolded text bait?

JonNC:

In the book of Acts, we see the council approach as to how the faith can be transmitted through time. That process has been interrupted by the Great Schism and other divisions within the Church.

and scripture condemns schism and division.
Which actually is a big part of the instruction. Don’t divide.… or else there are bad consequences for those who do it.

 

[steve-b]

GodSpawned:

Agree, @JonNC. It’s the definition of ‘apostolic succession’ that would vary.

With Anglicans and I assume Orthodox, the main difference would be a rejection of the papal claim of universal jurisdiction
With Lutherans, the use of presbyter ordination, though even that is considered an exception due to the unwillingness of bishops to ordain their priests. And some Lutherans do ordain by bishops.

stepping back in history a bit

Philip legate of Pope Celestine
Council of Ephesus in 431 (an ecumenical council)

Third session July 11

Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said:
“There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince ( exarkos ) and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation ( qemelios ) of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Coelestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place m this holy synod, which the most humane and Christian Emperors have commanded to assemble, bearing in mind and continually watching over the Catholic faith. For they both have kept and are now keeping intact the apostolic doctrine handed down to them from their most pious and humane grandfathers and fathers of holy memory down to the present time, etc”.
From the Acts session 3

Going back further because this, an old argument, was already waged by the apostles, and answered by Jesus.

You’ll remember this. We talked about it before

Steve and JonNC

 

[gazelam]

Ok thanks, but that was not my question. But if we are discussing what you mentioned gazelam, what about Titus 1:5 “For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you,” http://www.usccb.org/bible/titus/1

Anyway, I was hoping to get some answers from non-Catholic Christians to this question: “What provisions did Christ make for the authoritative transmission of the Christian Faith?”

Ephesians 4:11-13 states:
And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers,
to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ

Christ set up the structure described here by Paul and that structure is to remain “until we all attain a unity of faith” (which clearly hasn’t happened yet.) I’d say that the verse in Titus you reference of appointing presbyters falls in the “pastors” or “teachers” category. Is that the kind of authoritative transmission you’re looking for?

 

[JonNC]

Since the topic is focusing on non-Catholic Christians response to the question, and non-Catholic Christians believe in sola scriptura, why then is the bolded text bait?

Because many do not practice sola scriptura in the way it is sometimes portrayed here, and not all non-Catholics believe sola scriptura.

and scripture condemns schism and division.
Which actually is a big part of the instruction. Don’t divide. … or else there are bad consequences for those who do it.

Exactly, and since all of us are equally to blame for schism and division, all of us have a responsibility to seek unity

 

[JonNC]

Amen. No talk of universal jurisdiction, or supremacy, or infallibility ex cathedra

 

[SnowRose]

Amen. No talk of universal jurisdiction, or supremacy, or infallibility ex cathedra

Motion seconded and carried.

 

[steve-b]

Unnamed:

Ok thanks, but that was not my question. …

Ephesians 4:11-13 states:
And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers,
to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ

you read into the text

The following is condemned activity

division, schism, sedition, διχοστασίας dichostasia is condemned, as are those who do it. That Greek word used in both Romans 16:17 ,and Galatians 5:19

The consequence for one’s soul in that sin? "I warn you, as I have warned you before, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.” [Gal 5:21] iow they go to Hell.

gazelam:

Christ set up the structure described here by Paul

True. At Pentecost.

gazelam:

and that structure is to remain "until we all attain a unity of faith" (which clearly hasn’t happened yet.) I’d say that the verse in Titus you reference of appointing presbyters falls in the “pastors” or “teachers” category. Is that the kind of authoritative transmission you’re looking for?

The Church Jesus established is already there, with Peter at the helm.

Just a brief history

Acts 9:31 From the Greek Study Bible Ἡ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς
Translation:
ἐκκλησία = church
καθ’ = according to,
ὅλης = whole, entire, universal,
τῆς = the,
= the Kataholos Church = the Catholic Church.

1st century:

Bishop Ignatius of Antioch, ordained bishop by the apostles, ~69 a.d. was also a direct disciple of St John the apostle. Ignatius writes Catholic Church. in (ch 8) in his Epistle to the Smyrnæans He also writes, schismatics won’t be going to heaven, in his Epistle to the Philadelphians ch 3

Ignatius passed on in writing what he learned from the apostles. A non-Catholic will ask, what apostle wrote about such consequences for division? It was Paul. See links to Romans and Galatians up the page

Paul was inspired by the HS which means that ultimately comes from Jesus. That’s because Jesus condemns division from His Church Jn 17 , and since the HS only teaches what comes from Jesus we know then who Paul received his instruction condemning division, from. Jesus

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Since the topic is focusing on non-Catholic Christians response to the question, and non-Catholic Christians believe in sola scriptura, why then is the bolded text bait?

Because many do not practice sola scriptura in the way it is sometimes portrayed here, and not all non-Catholics believe sola scriptura.

The OP however is asking for scripture alone.

and scripture condemns schism and division.
Which actually is a big part of the instruction. Don’t divide. … or else there are bad consequences for those who do it.

JonNC:

Exactly, and since all of us are equally to blame for schism and division,

Jon,

Not even close. Non Catholic religions start up every day.

JonNC:

all of us have a responsibility to seek unity

True.

 

[godisgood77]

No specifics that I know of… he granted the apostles great latitude.

 

[JonNC]

The OP however is asking for scripture alone .

And I responded with Acts.

Jon,

Not even close. Non Catholic religions start up every day.

If we say we have no din, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

The OP however is asking for scripture alone .

And I responded with Acts.

So how was he baiting?

Jon,

Not even close. Non Catholic religions start up every day.

JonNC:

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Point being, those who divide or are divided from the Church, can’t just stay divided, thinking things are OK or will be OK for them.

Paul warns

Romans 16:17-20 , & Galatians 5:19-21 The Greek word used there in both selections διχοστασίας dichostasia = division / dissension / factions /sedition. For further explanation, from that link (divisions which wrongly separate people into pointless groundless factions.)

That Jon is Protestantism of every stripe. Everybody doing their own thing and NONE are “in” the Church.

AND

The consequences for such division from the Catholic Church, Paul writes, I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [Gal 5:21]

Paul says in Romans

• People who divide don’t serve Our Lord but their own selfish appetites
• stay away from them
• They do evil
• They follow Satan

Who will Satan be crushed under? Paul says, The feet of the Church of Rome.

Jon,

As the topic of the thread asks, Did Christ provide any instructions on how the faith is to be authoritatively handed on.

I’m just giving scriptural and historical information. What anybody does with it is up to them. Paul is writing to the same Church that 2000 years later, Pope Francis is over, 266th successor to St Peter.

If God hates divorce then He hates division also. Especially when He prayed specifically for perfect unity

The Protestant revolt, was all about leaving the Church of Rome. And then all the divisions that came form all the revolts from those revolts, down to our day and beyond. The warning and consequences for that division hasn’t changed.