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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
Return and stay on the topic of the OP
Question to our 'seperated brethren' (protestants), who deny Mary, Theotokos
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Rosinante
Guest
Hey, if you didn’t think the question applied to you, you were certainly free not to reply to it at all. However, I’m grateful that you chimed in.
Per the bolded section, it would appear that at least you confess your blatant ingorance of history–the church’s, and the Bible’s, in particular–and that you apparently accept the doctrine of ‘sola scriptura’, on blind faith.
Personally, I wouldn’t be satisfied to stake my salvation upon such a flimsy basis of knowledge…but that’s just me.
Merry Christmas, sir. (oops…have I pressumed too much, in assuming you observe Christ’s MASS–'er. Chirstmas?).
Nevermind. Apparently the first 1,500 years of Christianity matter no more to you, than “… the Quorum meetings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints…”.
I suppose the only thing that really matters, is that the Gideons continue to provide free copies of the King James Version of the Bible, and that the ‘sea of churches’, continue to pimp out ‘salvation’ upon the simplistic formulary of praying ‘the Sinner’s prayer.’
To think that all those bishops, popes, martyrs, Saints, Church Fathers, the Evangleists, the Apostles, and everyone else involved at all in the first 1,500 years after Chirst’s resurrection, had it sooooooo wrong. What the heck did they know???
Quite lucky for the world, that the prophet Martin Luther came along, and set the record straight, and finished what Christ had begun–by simply declaring it completely finished!
VIVAT JESUS!
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PRmerger
Guest
Exactly.
No Catholic ought to be proclaiming any Christian teaching in isolation of any others.
That is, as stated earlier, all of Christian teaching is a seamless garment.
It is a strawman to posit that Catholics are simply going around proclaiming Mary to be the theotokos, period. As if that were the end of the story.
That is why we have a Church.
That is why we are all called to be evangelists.
Mary as* theotokos* is the beginning of the conversation. Not the end.
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Rosinante
Guest
Schism, schmism…
Even the Apostolic Churches of the East, honor Mary Theotokos.
Yet, many of the ‘reformed’ communities founded by the disciples of Martin Luther–reject it.
…and so my question stands–upon what basis do those who deny the dogmatic titular, Mary Theotokos, reject this dogmatic declaration of and by, the Church Fathers in attendance?
What is/was wrong, with the titular?
How did they supposedly err?
Upon what authority do those select disciples of Martin Luther seek to reject an express declaration of and by, the Church Fathers?
VIVAT JESUS!
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Randy_Carson
Guest
That’s why I quoted **rcjones **verbatim except for exchanging one word, “Theotokos”, for “Tri-unity” which appeared in his post.
It illustrates the double-standard, don’t you think?
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed. :sad_yes:That’s why I quoted **rcjones **verbatim except for exchanging one word, “Theotokos”, for “Tri-unity” which appeared in his post.
It illustrates the double-standard, don’t you think?
Christians ought not go around proclaiming, “God is a Trinity!” any more than “Mary is theotokos!” without further catechesis to our un-catechized brethren.
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PRmerger
Guest
I suggest you join me in discussions in the Philosophy forum with some atheists. It’s fun to stretch a different apologetics muscle every once in a while.I’ve been popping in and out on occasion, but I was kinda burned out for awhile.
The discussions can get pretty repetitive, ya know?
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PRmerger
Guest
Like the Incarnation, it’s simple enough for a uneducated peasant to grasp, yet profound and sublime enough to have theological giants such as Augustine, Aquinas, Teresa of Avila, Anselm, Teresa Benedict of the Cross, Popes JPII and B16 discuss and inform and nourish us with their profound thoughts.
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JustaServant
Guest
I know, when I resort to cutting and pasting old responses, it’s time for a vacation.I’ve been popping in and out on occasion, but I was kinda burned out for awhile.
The discussions can get pretty repetitive, ya know?
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JustaServant
Guest
Popping into WN to discuss politics can be a little hairy to.I suggest you join me in discussions in the Philosophy forum with some atheists. It’s fun to stretch a different apologetics muscle every once in a while.
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JustaServant
Guest
Not sure where he was coming from. Even as a fundy I never objected to ‘Mother of God’.That’s why I quoted **rcjones **verbatim except for exchanging one word, “Theotokos”, for “Tri-unity” which appeared in his post.
It illustrates the double-standard, don’t you think?
Looks like RC has a vacation being imposed.
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PRmerger
Guest
Yep.Popping into WN to discuss politics can be a little hairy to.
The one forum I can’t tolerate is the Traditionalist forum. In my humble opinion Traditionalists do much to harm our efforts to evangelize our separated brethren.
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Rosinante
Guest
Not directly, but ‘diciples of Martin Luther’ in the sense of supplanting the Church with their own personal interpretation of teh Faith, per sola scriptura. I’m well aware of Luther’s marian devotion; yet that does not absolve him of the natural, inevitable end to which he has mis-led so many believers, by championing his heresy of sola scriptura, and rebelling agsinst the authority of teh Church.
Even HE recognized the grave error he had committed in leaving the Church (after witnessing so many conflicting schools of thought develop within his lifetime).
VIVAT JESUS!
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Rosinante
Guest
b/t/w: “Fr. Martin”? I believe that titular was relinquished after he was defrocked.
VIVAT JESUS!
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Rosinante
Guest
Zwingli, Calvin et. al., are indeed responsbile for themselves–but that–no more than Luther’s marian devotion–serves to absolve ML of being the ‘pathfinder’. Calvin/Zwingli’s path may have divierged from Luther’s–but they began as the same point of origin–sola scriptura–and that point, was Luther’s legacy.So, those of other movements were simply lemmings who followed him, yet didn’t follow him.
Zwungli, Calvin, the anabaptists, etc., are responsible for themselves.
Source.
Jon
As for the source–I had it bookmaked in my old computer, but my hard drive crashed, and I lost it (along with hundreds of ther bm’d sites). Taht b/t/w, has soemthing to do with why I’m posting here–after not posting for so many years…
I’ll post it after Chirsmtas, if I can find it again (and if i remember).
I believe, among other sources, it may have been recounted in St. Alphonsus Ligori’s 'Against the Heretics.
VIVAT JESUS!
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benjohnson
Guest
The logic of blaming the ‘parent’ for the misdeads of the ‘child’ is faulty, for it we were to follow this to it’s conclusion we would have to blame the Catholic church for Luther’s actions.
In this case it is even more susupect for Luther specificially denied what Calivn was promulgating even going so far as to say:
I would rather have pure blood with the Pope, than drink mere wine with the Enthusiasts. (Luther’s Works, 37, 317)
In this case it is even more susupect for Luther specificially denied what Calivn was promulgating even going so far as to say:
I would rather have pure blood with the Pope, than drink mere wine with the Enthusiasts. (Luther’s Works, 37, 317)
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Hey! That’s my bread and butter…
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