Question to our 'seperated brethren' (protestants), who deny Mary, Theotokos

[gcnuss]

From a wiki entry on Lutheran Marian Theology:
“Lutherans believe that the person Jesus is God the Son, the second Person of the Trinity, who was incarnated in the womb of his mother Mary as a human being, and since, as a person, he was “born of the Virgin Mary”. Lutherans have always believed that Mary is the Theotokos, the God-bearer. Martin Luther said:
he became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child… Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God… None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.”

Amen. Thank you, Batman, for showing what Lutherans truly believe about the Blessed Virgin. She is the Mother of God.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes. Thank you. That’s why the term causes confusion as stated previously.

Do you then believe that we ought not use the term Trinity?

For does it not cause confusion to our Muslim/Jewish/Hindu brethren?

Or, rather, do you believe that we need to proclaim the Truth and evangelize where misunderstandings present themselves?

 

[PRmerger]

My God is bigger than yours. He said he would preserve his word and guide us in all truth. I do not believe that one person misunderstanding one doctrine makes all Christianity fall apart.

Fair enough.

Then you are of the position that someone can misunderstand the concept of the Incarnation, and say,* “I believe that Jesus sinned!”* yet it not unravel Christian theology?

What about a person who says that he does not believe in the Virgin Birth?

Are you of the position that he would be able to defend the Christian doctrine that Jesus is God Incarnate, if he believes that Joseph was the father of Jesus?

 

[rcjones]

You give tacit submission to the authority of the Catholic Church each and every time you quote from the New Testament, rc.

For the ONLY way that you know that, say, the Gospel of Mark is theopneustos is through the authority of the Catholic Church.

You would not know it any other way, but have deferred (tacitly) to her charism of infallibility to discern for you what is inspired revelation and what is not.

Now you have stepped over the line. I do not give tacit submission to the authority of the Catholic church. Wouldn’t it have been more polite to ask me if that was what I was doing rather than accuse me of it?

“Aren’t you giving tacit approval…?” It’s so simple and non-confrontative.

The answer is emphatically NO!

The bulk of the scriptures were given to us by the Jews. When the church, by way of the apostles, started teaching, their teaching was tested to be true by the scriptures the Jews gave us. The gospels tell us how the apostles interpreted what Jesus did in light of the Old Testament. The Bereans and other faithful Jews checked the teaching of the church against the scriptures they had. If the teaching of the apostles could not be verified by the Old Testament they would not have been accepted by such Bereans.

Therefore everything the church did bowed to the authority of the Jewish scripture and (using your logic) the Jews who gave them to us. The apostles were authorized by Jesus to write new scripture (binding and loosing) and their teachings were collected in order to preserve their teachings which were subject to the authority of the Old Testament.

Since God works out his spiritual will using men working in the flesh, there is no cause for me to even presume that those who collected the canon were even godly men (though I do so believe).

There is no tacit submission to the Catholic church. We could have been on friendly terms rather than antagonistic if you had merely asked.

 

[PRmerger]

“Mother of God” is not clear because it can be mistaken to be “Mother of the First Person of the Trinity” as you have pointed out in the false syllogism.

Indeed.

This segues nicely with my question regarding the Trinity. I have had many conversations with Muslims who object vehemently to our teaching on the Trinity.

Taken as a mantra of “Christians are Trinitarians” it can lead to gross misunderstandings.

Yet I assume you will not cease and desist from proclaiming a belief in the Trinity, yes?

 

[PRmerger]

Now you have stepped over the line. I do not give tacit submission to the authority of the Catholic church.

Then could you please proffer how it is that you know that the Gospel of Mark is theopneustos?

 

[PRmerger]

We could have been on friendly terms rather than antagonistic if you had merely asked.

My apologies!

 

[PRmerger]

Since God works out his spiritual will using men working in the flesh, there is no cause for me to even presume that those who collected the canon were even godly men (though I do so believe).

This is the Catholic position as well, rc.

Each and every time you quote from, say, 1 Peter, you are acknowledging that a man can be infallible, yes?

Thus, I posit that each and every time you quote from the NT not only are you giving tacit approval to an outside authority to discern for you what is inspired, (and thus, are acknowledging that you are not a Bible-Alone advocate), you also acknowledge that the charism of infallibility can be given to men, yes?

 

[rcjones]

Now you have stepped over the line. I do not give tacit submission to the authority of the Catholic church. Wouldn’t it have been more polite to ask me if that was what I was doing rather than accuse me of it?

“Aren’t you giving tacit approval…?” It’s so simple and non-confrontative.

The answer is emphatically NO!

The bulk of the scriptures were given to us by the Jews. When the church, by way of the apostles, started teaching, their teaching was tested to be true by the scriptures the Jews gave us. The gospels tell us how the apostles interpreted what Jesus did in light of the Old Testament. The Bereans and other faithful Jews checked the teaching of the church against the scriptures they had. If the teaching of the apostles could not be verified by the Old Testament they would not have been accepted by such Bereans.

Therefore everything the church did bowed to the authority of the Jewish scripture and (using your logic) the Jews who gave them to us. The apostles were authorized by Jesus to write new scripture (binding and loosing) and their teachings were collected in order to preserve their teachings which were subject to the authority of the Old Testament.

Since God works out his spiritual will using men working in the flesh, there is no cause for me to even presume that those who collected the canon were even godly men (though I do so believe).

There is no tacit submission to the Catholic church. We could have been on friendly terms rather than antagonistic if you had merely asked.

For your information: My family spoke Yiddish until two generations ago. They were known as Ashkenazi Jews. Most of the Ashkenazi were religious Jews. As far back as the records go (12th Century) my family was Christian. They were persecuted by Catholics for being Jews and by Jews for being Christian. They have always been pacifists and more willing to be martyrs than to kill others for their faith like those around them.

So it is likely they were first century converts who retained their Jewish identity. My Jewish church is the mother of your Greek and Roman church. Your church went it’s own way because the Greeks despised the Jews for simply being Jews. They refused to learn Hebrew so that they could properly understand the Old Testament.

Don’t you you give tacit submission to my church every time you use the Old or New Testament since all the NT writers were in the Jewish church except for perhaps Luke who was given authority by the Jewish church? (See how less confrontative it is when I ask.)

 

[rcjones]

This is the Catholic position as well, rc.

Each and every time you quote from, say, 1 Peter, you are acknowledging that a man can be infallible, yes?

Thus, I posit that each and every time you quote from the NT not only are you giving tacit approval to an outside authority to discern for you what is inspired, (and thus, are acknowledging that you are not a Bible-Alone advocate), you also acknowledge that the charism of infallibility can be given to men, yes?

No. I believe that the Holy Siprit guides us in all truth. I am not a Bible-alone advocate. I advocate that the Spirit of God indwells men, and that those men are guided by him. Even now it it up to me (as guided by teh Holy Spirit) to discern whether Tobit is scripture or not, since the Greek churches and her daughters have been unable to decide.

 

[rcjones]

No. I believe that the Holy Siprit guides us in all truth. I am not a Bible-alone advocate. I advocate that the Spirit of God indwells men, and that those men are guided by him. Even now it it up to me (as guided by teh Holy Spirit) to discern whether Tobit is scripture or not, since the Greek churches and her daughters have been unable to decide.

The very idea of canon itself is of Greek invention. The question is whether God spoke through certain authors or not. The argument whether a book belongs in the canon only inflames the egos of men, and it is foisted upon us by those who do not trust God to save his people and protect them, insisting that they alone are the arbiters of faith.

 

[PRmerger]

Don’t you you give tacit submission to my church every time you use the Old or New Testament since all the NT writers were in the Jewish church except for perhaps Luke who was given authority by the Jewish church? (See how less confrontative it is when I ask.)

Oh, yes, indeed we do, rc!!

We proclaim loudly and proudly, “Salvation is from the Jews!”

 

[PRmerger]

No. I believe that the Holy Siprit guides us in all truth. I am not a Bible-alone advocate. I advocate that the Spirit of God indwells men, and that those men are guided by him. Even now it it up to me (as guided by teh Holy Spirit) to discern whether Tobit is scripture or not, since the Greek churches and her daughters have been unable to decide.

This is a non-sequitur, rc.

Of course we are both agreed that the Holy Spirit guides us.

But the question remains: how is it that you know that the Gospel of Mark is inspired? What about the letter to the Hebrews?

And how is it that you know that the Gospel of Barnabas is not inspired?

 

[Randy_Carson]

So it is likely they were first century converts who retained their Jewish identity. My Jewish church is the mother of your Greek and Roman church. Your church went it’s own way because the Greeks despised the Jews for simply being Jews. They refused to learn Hebrew so that they could properly understand the Old Testament.

No. The incident with Peter and Cornelius makes it clear that God wanted both Jews and Gentiles to be included in the one faith that is now known as Christianity.

Since Jesus established Peter as the head of that faith community, it is up to you to determine whether you will accept Jesus’ plan for the Church that HE has built or not.

Don’t you you give tacit submission to my church every time you use the Old or New Testament since all the NT writers were in the Jewish church except for perhaps Luke who was given authority by the Jewish church? (See how less confrontative it is when I ask.)

No. The Jews had no set canon of scripture prior to the end of the first century. The Catholic Church has (by the guidance of the Holy Spirit) determined which books are authentically inspired and which are not.

 

[rcjones]

Oh, yes, indeed we do, rc!!

We proclaim loudly and proudly, “Salvation is from the Jews!”

From our perspective, the children are still pushing and shoving over who gets to sit at the right and left hands of Jesus rather than submitting to Him.

 

[Randy_Carson]

No. I believe that the Holy Siprit guides us in all truth. I am not a Bible-alone advocate. I advocate that the Spirit of God indwells men, and that those men are guided by him. Even now it it up to me (as guided by teh Holy Spirit) to discern whether Tobit is scripture or not, since the Greek churches and her daughters have been unable to decide.

Ah. So, you are individually guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth. Does this individual guidance apply to other individuals, also? And is it possible for you to be wrong concerning a specific doctrine of faith? If not, then do you claim infallibility?

Further, how two individual believers - both led into all truth - determine which of them is correct when they have theological differences? More importantly, how is it even POSSIBLE for two believers led by the same Spirit to disagree since there is only one truth on a given theological point? Or do you believe it is possible for something to be true for me and false for you and vice versa?

 

[PRmerger]

The argument whether a book belongs in the canon only inflames the egos of men, and it is foisted upon us by those who do not trust God to save his people and protect them, insisting that they alone are the arbiters of faith.

Is it not true that a similar argument could be presented by Muslims when we tell them that they cannot be saved without Jesus?

What would you tell a Muslim who then responds with, “The argument that we cannot be saved without Jesus inflames the egos of men, and it is foisted upon us by those who do not trust God to save his people and protect them, insisting that they alone are the arbiters of faith.”?

 

[Randy_Carson]

From our perspective, the children are still pushing and shoving over who gets to sit at the right and left hands of Jesus rather than submitting to Him.

This sounds like a flimsy excuse to avoid having to think more deeply.

 

[PRmerger]

From our perspective, the children are still pushing and shoving over who gets to sit at the right and left hands of Jesus rather than submitting to Him.

This is, indeed, a great tragedy.

 

[rcjones]

From our perspective, the children are still pushing and shoving over who gets to sit at the right and left hands of Jesus rather than submitting to Him.

We’re out of synch… your questions have been answered.

We have no canon. We learn from God and he uses the books we have whether they are identified as scripture or not.

I am reading the Hebrew book that are dropped from the Protestant canon now. The story of the woman with seven sons is probably what the Sadducees were mocking when they tries to trap Jesus. God is using that to show me something.

If I read in Matthew something that I don’t understand, it doesn’t matter if it is labeled scripture or not, God is not currently using it to teach me.

So if I had to invent a sola to give you a sound bite, I would say that I am Sola Spiritu and that even if I no longer had access to a Bible, the Spirit would guide me in truth.