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ChristisRisen32
Guest
Did the Virgin Mary have a “choice” when she became pregnant with Jesus?
God Bless,
Tony
God Bless,
Tony
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Rascalking
Guest
Great question my friend.
Pro-choicers have so many questions they just can’t answer. Eventually, you begin to realize that being pro-choice doesn’t really make alot of sense. I know that because I used to be pro-choice, but never radical about it.
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dcrowmik
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Of course Mary had a choice – she had the choice to say “no” to the Holy Spirit, but she said “YES”. If Mary had said no, we would all be consigned to the gates of Hell owing to the lack of Jesus’ birth and death and unlocking the gates of Hell. Those who abort are consigning their dead children to the lack of the Beatific Vision just as if Mary would have said no to all of us.
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Whitacre_Girl
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I’m not pro-choice…I am totally pro-life. But yes, Mary did have a choice and she chose to say Yes and be obedient to God. That’s one of the many reasons she is so celebrated!
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TheTrueCentrist
Guest
Is being pro-choice much different from how God treats us? He gives us the opportunity to sin and be punished. Pro-choice people believe God will adequately punish those who chose to get abortions. Pro-life people want to remove the choice, they envision a country in which you can’t get an abortion even if you wanted one. Is being virtuous really admirable if you have no choice?
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Mark1124
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There is still a choice: you can choose whether to desire an abortion or not. What you shouldn’t be able to do is have an abortion if you choose to desire one. Abortion should be illegal for the same reason as murder (and the reason applies even more in the case of abortion)-you are killing an innocent person.
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Rence
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“Let it be done to me according to your Word”. Yes she had a choice
She is the epitome of obedience to God.
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TheTrueCentrist
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I’ll tell a story to explain my thinking:
God having his angels draw up plans for the world he is about to create. He goes to a meeting with two architect angels who are presenting their blueprints for the world. The first, Prochoicieth, says “My world is the epitome of free will. As you can see, the humans can, and frequently do, chose evil. However, there are clearly a great many who will chose to obey your commandments”
“I have a great deal of respect for my colleague” says the second angel, Vitius, “But if you look closely at his plans, you will notice the abominable human invention of abortion. That is why, in my blueprint, I have designed the world in such a way that the invention of an efficient means of abortion is always thwarted. Certainly there are women who wish for such a practice, but they are too poor and uneducated to effect the technology or influence those who could. In this way, I have retained the human’s free will, but prevented a great deal of innocent deaths.”
God chose the first world, our world. Pro-lifers would chose the second.
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RosaryFan
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Mary certainly had a choice before the Holy Spirit overshadowed her. Once conception took place, there was no more choice.
If these pro-choicers want a choice, their choice should be whether or not to keep their pants on. Once the pants come off and conception happens, then the choice they make is no longer theirs, but that of their newly conceived human being child.
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RosaryFan
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So let me get this straight. You think it should be legal to be able to take the life of any innocent human being that causes any kind of inconvenience to us simply because God gave us free will and we shouldn’t be thwarted from exercising that free will?
By your convoluted reasoning, all forms of killing, murder, homicide, etc., should be allowed. Why stop there? What about all violence and abuse. Allowed??
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catholictiger
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let me ask you a simple question it seems like from this response you are pro choice is this true?
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estesbob
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So basically, there should be no laws whatsoever in that God will punish those who sin in the end. Or does this novel moral theory only apply to abortion?
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TheTrueCentrist
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The job of the state is to ensure the efficient and cohesive operation of society. Does abortion disrupt society? No, as much as pro-lifers would like abortion to have negative physical side effects, there is precious little evidence to show that there are. Does murder (or any of its common synonyms) disrupt the operations of a society? Yes, and it is therefore an area the state can regulate.
The role of religion is to guide our moral choices. Catholicism is perfectly able to deny its members abortions, divorce, gay marriage, Freemason membership, contraceptive use, etc, but whether those are acceptable areas of government regulation is a separate question. If Catholics could legislate everything they wanted to according to moral principals alone, we would not live in a democracy, but a theocracy.
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TheTrueCentrist
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Bringing my last two posts together:
The state, however, is different. The state needs no divine authority or moral justification for its laws. Do you think the speed limit is divinely inspired? Should we prayerfully consider each income bracket when setting the tax code? Of course not. Government should be a contract in which people agree to submit to the laws in return for the benefits the government provides. Attempting to enact laws many people disagree with undermines the contract and you get widespread disobedience (e.g. prohibition.)
Given these two paradigms, there are two courses of action that can be taken with regards to abortion. Either you can make the government more closely align with Catholic teaching, or you can make the people more closely align with Catholic teaching. I believe conversion ought to come before compulsion.
I think we should model religion after the actions of God. God created a world in which we have choice, and while he is willing to help us to choose good, he does not stop us from doing evil. In the same way, the Church should encourage its members to do good and follow Gods commands, but it should stop short of compulsion. In other words, we should not have a Catholic Sharia Law that would mete out punishments for sins or enforce strict orthodoxy.
The state, however, is different. The state needs no divine authority or moral justification for its laws. Do you think the speed limit is divinely inspired? Should we prayerfully consider each income bracket when setting the tax code? Of course not. Government should be a contract in which people agree to submit to the laws in return for the benefits the government provides. Attempting to enact laws many people disagree with undermines the contract and you get widespread disobedience (e.g. prohibition.)
Given these two paradigms, there are two courses of action that can be taken with regards to abortion. Either you can make the government more closely align with Catholic teaching, or you can make the people more closely align with Catholic teaching. I believe conversion ought to come before compulsion.
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Whitacre_Girl
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You think laws should only be judged by those that disrupt society? Rape doesn’t disrupt society. Let’s just make sure all rapists are given condoms so that they can’t impregnate their victims. The woman will go on, and no major harm is done to society, right? And don’t say “Yes it is, can you image a world where everyone is raping women?” We both know that won’t happen – just like not every woman has an abortion now when it is legal. If every woman had an abortion that would certainly disrupt society. And it *definitely * disrupts society in ways we can’t see - we’re down about 50 million people since '73. Just because we can’t see the damage doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
No. Justice is about preventing and making recompense for hurt and damage. Government exists to protect the innocent and the would-be victims. In this case, millions of children are being murdered. The most innocent and defenseless of all are being ripped limb from limb for profit and by lies being fed to women so men don’t have to man up and take care of their own.
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RosaryFan
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Are you really asking if abortion disrupts society?? It disrupts everything.
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catholictiger
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first why did you ignore my post
, I understand you have a lot of people to respond to so I get why you may have looked it over.but lets look at this issue in another way, lets just say for a second that you are correct abortion doesn’t have any negative physical side effects, its a painless process women aren’t emotionally affected by it and its as simple as a surgery as getting your wisdom teeth out. If this was the case I still think abortion should be Illegal. do you know why? Its pretty simple it kills a human being. We could go back and forth on these ideas all day about how it negatively effects society how Women should have a choice, how women may not be able to afford a child, but that will be a waste of our time if we do not focus on the Human being that you are ending its life.
So if you are willing to do some simple question and answers I will start with a couple for you
just to through it all in one I would never do it this way If I where talking to you in person but lets start and try and break down your position
so should a women be able to have an abortion in the 3rd trimester
should late term abortions be legal
what about the 2nd trimester are abortions ok then.
1st trimester are they ok then?
Please explain your reasoning behind each position.
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waterbrook
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To be quite honest I cant see any sense in this question in rela ion to pro choice. Mary had a choice, she was given it before she conceived, she consented to be the mother of Chirst. Like all of us she had free will. In an ideal world I can see nothing wrong with being pro choice because in an ideal world noone would chose abortion.Unfortunately we are not in a morally mature society so i think we should stand up for the rights of the unborn. But actually I think given that we are not a morally mature society contraception should be promoted to those as yet unable to conform to the will of Christ for a relationship.
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crazzeto
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It is worth noting she had a choice before hand, her Fiat which is such an important theological principal… Though like any well formed Christian, when she made her fiat the choice was made and she joyfully expected her gift to the world from God.
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estesbob
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And how can one exercise free will if they are denied the right to life?
I have never heard a pro-abortion person try to justify their support of abortion under the guise that God would punish those who are involved with the abortion. . In fact, in 25 some years of discussing this issue on the Internet. I’ve only recently heard this argument advanced by anybody at all and it has always been advance by someone who claims to be pro-life and was trying to justify their support of pro-abortion politician. with
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