Question to Protestants...

[joshua_b]

I will concede that many of my Catholic bretheren (myself included) are not near as adept at reciting Scripture as our Protestant friends, but I take exception to the attitude that Catholics “dont know the Bible” and that “Catholicism is not based on Scripture” or “doesn’t view Scripture as important”. Are there any Protestants out there who can offer some reasons as to why this attitude seems to be so pervasive, or, if any Protestants out there agree with this opinion, give me some insight as to why they perceive the Catholic Church in this light ?

 

[Le_Cracquere]

joshua_b:

I will concede that many of my Catholic bretheren (myself included) are not near as adept at reciting Scripture as our Protestant friends, but I take exception to the attitude that Catholics “dont know the Bible” and that “Catholicism is not based on Scripture” or “doesn’t view Scripture as important”. Are there any Protestants out there who can offer some reasons as to why this attitude seems to be so pervasive, or, if any Protestants out there agree with this opinion, give me some insight as to why they perceive the Catholic Church in this light ?

Well, I never knew many Catholics until I went to college, but on the rare occasions when our discussions turned to religious matters, I was struck by the fact that, without exception, they gave the impression of never having read it. For starters, someone would ask a Catholic friend in passing if he or she was a Christian, and the response would be: “Well, I was raised to be a good Catholic.” (Whether or not the speaker meant to imply that Catholicism wasn’t a form of Christianity, that was the message the interlocutors got from it.) Our friends knew who Christ was, that He died and rose again, but knew nothing beyond that–not even the purpose of the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

A couple of our Catholic friends actually said they’d never cracked open a Bible, or gotten the impression from anyone that it was desirable to do so. Now, of course, one finds out later that the missal contains Biblical passages, but when one sees such a lack of emphasis on a faith’s primary text (whether one buys into sola scriptura or not), one draws certain conclusions. I know that Catholics do complain about poor catechesis, but “poor” doesn’t even begin to describe it. In such cases as these, you can’t really blame a sheltered Protestant child for wondering what sort of organization this is supposed to be, anyway, and why are they calling themselves Christians?

Later on, I learned that such undercathechized Catholics are not typical, but neither are they by any means rare. And I’m afraid that they’re often the ones who stick in the minds of non-Catholics, trampling seeds that might otherwise have sprouted.

 

[BrianH]

My impressions about Catholics and the Bible also came from Catholics who did not take scripture seriously. I have several friends that have always been Catholic and my brothers converted, none read their Bibles much at all. So…just personal experience. This board has very knowledgeable people when it concerns scripture, I still assume they are the exception.
BH

 

[Kitty_Chan]

My catholic friend is so missing in basic knowledge, she loves talking to me and finding out holes shes missing. One with communion is she totally missed that there was a last supper she only thought of Christ dieing and not raising 3 days later either.

But having said that the short answer to the posts question is “Labels”

As a people we believe the “Label” that is assigned to a person.

We catagorize them as such and make our decisions regarding them that way.

What we are ALL truly missing is the ability to read further down the “Label” for the ingredients. Its there that we find out the truth of what lies inside.

 

[joshua_b]

Thank you all for your candid yet charitable answers. I guess a follow up question is “do Protestants extend this observation to apply it to the Catholic Church, as opposed to just individual members ?”

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Well I will run with my Labels philosophy

by the church I take it to mean those in the Vatican.

Label says they want to run the world by telling us what to do. or perhaps they are the first church. Its a church that is against abortion, they have fancy churches etc all first impressions.

Ingredients are

They feel charged with the responsibility to teach people about the Savior, so have had endless meetings (councils?) over years to try and perfect that very goal.

They actually revere Christ and want to spread the Good News that He did die for our sins. One would be totally inaccurate to say “they” had nothing to bring to the table of discussion.

probably more I will post as I thinkof em.

 

[BrianH]

joshua_b:

Thank you all for your candid yet charitable answers. I guess a follow up question is “do Protestants extend this observation to apply it to the Catholic Church, as opposed to just individual members ?”

I don’t know. The Catholic church has, obviously, a great deal of control of their churches. If they wanted everyone to attend a bible study at the church, everyone would attend a bible study at the church…for the most part. Agreed? Scriptures are constantly read at Mass, they are usually not put into any kind of context that would allow someone to give them meaning and be able to classify them in order to stay in their long term memory(sorry, the educator came out that last sentence).
Brian

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I looked at a few Catholic Religious studies books and was amazed at how watered down they were — I speaking in general.

Many Bible Christians pride themselves on carrying their Bibles to Church. Many of us keep a copy in our cars. I am told by ex-catholics that Catholics don’t take their Bibles to Church and would be hard pressed to know where their home Bible is.

 

[MariaG]

BrianH:

I don’t know. The Catholic church has, obviously, a great deal of control of their churches. If they wanted everyone to attend a bible study at the church, everyone would attend a bible study at the church…for the most part. Agreed? Scriptures are constantly read at Mass, they are usually not put into any kind of context that would allow someone to give them meaning and be able to classify them in order to stay in their long term memory(sorry, the educator came out that last sentence).
Brian

Nope. Not agreed. You are greatly mistaken in thinking that. The Catholic Church does not just make a decree out of thin air requiring its members to do something.

How do you think they have the power to do this?

As for putting the scriptures in context, that is a great variable. Our last priest seemed to be very fond of poets and not so much a fan of helping us to put scripture in context. Our current priest is very much the opposite. My kids are actually facinated with his homilies since he gives a good background to help them understand what Jesus was telling us to do.

You overgeneralize.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Daniel Marsh:

I looked at a few Catholic Religious studies books and was amazed at how watered down they were — I speaking in general.

Many Bible Christians pride themselves on carrying their Bibles to Church. Many of us keep a copy in our cars. I am told by ex-catholics that Catholics don’t take their Bibles to Church and would be hard pressed to know where their home Bible is.

Finding out the reading habits of Catholics from ex-Catholics is like trying to find out how a rocket is launched from a priest. If they had actually read the bible while in the Catholic Church, they would have never left it.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Kitty Chan:

Well I will run with my Labels philosophy

by the church I take it to mean those in the Vatican.

Label says they want to run the world by telling us what to do. or perhaps they are the first church. Its a church that is against abortion, they have fancy churches etc all first impressions.

Ingredients are

They feel charged with the responsibility to teach people about the Savior, so have had endless meetings (councils?) over years to try and perfect that very goal.

They actually revere Christ and want to spread the Good News that He did die for our sins. One would be totally inaccurate to say “they” had nothing to bring to the table of discussion.

probably more I will post as I thinkof em.

just a thought on Gods Word.

Everytime the Word “goes out” it can change a heart as it is not empty.

Now that Word can come from a catholic or non, and to be conterversial it can be hidden in movies, books, popular culture, other religions, people putting it down.

Whenever the gospel is heard no matter the form, God can use it to “prick” someones ears to hear even in unlikely places. So lets be careful about “boxing” the Word. God does move in mysterious ways. one never knows whos listening.

 

[deb1]

Daniel Marsh:

I looked at a few Catholic Religious studies books and was amazed at how watered down they were — I speaking in general.

Many Bible Christians pride themselves on carrying their Bibles to Church. Many of us keep a copy in our cars. I am told by ex-catholics that Catholics don’t take their Bibles to Church and would be hard pressed to know where their home Bible is.

After coming from a fundamentalist background, I can honestly say that the Missal is a work of genius! All the day’s bible readings are in the missal, so it would be unnecessary to bring your bible to mass. We all read the exact same translation.

In my previous church, the pastor tended to skip around the bible a lot, this meant that several moments were spent as the congregation hurriedly searched for the verse or biblical chapter that the pastor was referring to.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

MariaG:

Nope. Not agreed. You are greatly mistaken in thinking that. The Catholic Church does not just make a decree out of thin air requiring its members to do something.

How do you think they have the power to do this?

Well, the original poster was asking for a Protestant perspective. And by nearly any Protestant church’s standards, Catholicism exerts a tremendous amount of direct influence over its members’ lives, and has very effective lines of communication. Not every Catholic obeys the Church’s teaching on sexuality and other matters, but even disobedient Catholics know what the Church has to say about that. In many Protestants’ view, a worldwide organisation with the power to disseminate encyclicals, papal directives, bulls, &c., and have their contents become general knowledge within the Church, could probably enjoin or at least talk up the desirability of reading the Bible if it cared about such things.

MariaG:

As for putting the scriptures in context, that is a great variable. Our last priest seemed to be very fond of poets and not so much a fan of helping us to put scripture in context. Our current priest is very much the opposite. My kids are actually facinated with his homilies since he gives a good background to help them understand what Jesus was telling us to do.

I’m fond of poetry too, but it seems a little odd to Christians from other traditions that a pastor’s interest in it should be more apparent than his interest in Scripture and its context. Your eyebrow would probably raise if I said “My accountants have varied a lot: some of them emphasized the tax system, and some didn’t so much.” Or, “my first optometrist was more interested in folk music than the human eyeball.” Some things, in some callings, just shouldn’t be “a great variable.”

 

[MariaG]

originally posted by Le Cracquere
Well, the original poster was asking for a Protestant perspective. And by nearly any Protestant church’s standards, Catholicism exerts a tremendous amount of direct influence over its members’ lives, and has very effective lines of communication. Not every Catholic obeys the Church’s teaching on sexuality and other matters, but even disobedient Catholics know what the Church has to say about that. In many Protestants’ view, a worldwide organisation with the power to disseminate encyclicals, papal directives, bulls, &c., and have their contents become general knowledge within the Church, could probably enjoin or at least talk up the desirability of reading the Bible if it cared about such things.

Yes, but then the poster I responded to made a statement and said “Agreed”? No, there is not agreement to his statement. (see below)

originally posted by** BrianH**
I don’t know. The Catholic church has, obviously, a great deal of control of their churches. If they wanted everyone to attend a bible study at the church, everyone would attend a bible study at the church…for the most part. Agreed?

And the leadership in the Catholic Church does talk up the desirabilty of reading the Bible because it DOES care about such things.

originally posted by Le Cracquere
I’m fond of poetry too, but it seems a little odd to Christians from other traditions that a pastor’s interest in it should be more apparent than his interest in Scripture and its context. Your eyebrow would probably raise if I said “My accountants have varied a lot: some of them emphasized the tax system, and some didn’t so much.” Or, “my first optometrist was more interested in folk music than the human eyeball.” Some things, in some callings, just shouldn’t be “a great variable.”

I found the pastor’s I had in the Protestant denom’s varied greatly too. Is that odd also? Is it odd that some people carry out God’s word and plans for there lives better than others?

The big difference between Catholic and Protestant is that Protestant pastors can be fired if they are not explaining God’s word well enough, (or well enough for the those in the position to fire him) and Catholic priests are there until they switch people around (every 5 - 10 years) or until they retire. In the case of the last priest, it was clearly severe health problems that limited his ability and inclination to write good explanations, (or some days, any explanation at all), but the desire to keep on. Since the focus of a Mass is not the homily, but on Christ and the Eucharist, Communion was the focus of the priest’s energy.

So yes, this was asking for the protestant perspective, but the response back to BrianH was because he asked if his contention was agreed upon. It wasn’t.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Le_Cracquere]

MariaG:

Yes, but then the poster I responded to made a statement and said “Agreed”? No, there is not agreement to his statement … And the leadership in the Catholic Church does talk up the desirabilty of reading the Bible because it DOES care about such things.

Ah, my mistake. Sorry about that.

MariaG:

I found the pastor’s I had in the Protestant denom’s varied greatly too. Is that odd also? Is it odd that some people carry out God’s word and plans for there lives better than others?

Well, it’s not quite as odd. The innumerable Protestant denominations and sects are little organizations unto themselves. In that case, variation is the nature of the beast. The Lutherans, Presbyterians, Assemblies of God, Quakers, and the Abundant Life Compassion Explosion Storefront of Full Gospel Compunction can’t very well tell each other how to preach or what to teach, and no one expects that they can. A unified Catholic church with a defined hierarchy and magisterial teaching authority is sort of another matter.

MariaG:

Since the focus of a Mass is not the homily, but on Christ and the Eucharist, Communion was the focus of the priest’s energy.

And I think you’ve hit on an important point here. WIth the exceptions of a few groups like the High Anglicans and Lutherans, Protestants don’t really understand what a Mass is–I certainly didn’t until I was well into my thirties. Most of us aren’t used to the idea of the Word being anything other than absolutely and explicitly central (granted the missal).

 

[MariaG]

Le Cracquere:

And I think you’ve hit on an important point here. WIth the exceptions of a few groups like the High Anglicans and Lutherans, Protestants don’t really understand what a Mass is–I certainly didn’t until I was well into my thirties. Most of us aren’t used to the idea of the Word being anything other than absolutely and explicitly central (granted the missal).

:yup: If a person doesn’t believe in the Real Presence of Christ, it would be hard to understand why the word of God was not the focus.

But from the other perspective, why focus on the words Christ spoke instead of the Word Himself!

God Bless,
Maria

 

[BrianH]

MariaG:

Nope. Not agreed. You are greatly mistaken in thinking that. The Catholic Church does not just make a decree out of thin air requiring its members to do something.

How do you think they have the power to do this?

You overgeneralize.

God Bless,
Maria

I was not thinking a “decree” persay. The question assumed a historical perspective about who is “to blame” for a lack of biblical knowledge among Catholics. While you may disagree with my presupposition about Catholic biblical literacy of course. I said if they wanted to have people attend a Bible study, they would. I figured devout Catholics would listen to whatever means the Catholic church would utilize to have people do something. I know that priests listen to their bishops and on up. I assume, and I could care less the topic is very boring to me, it was just easy to answer, I thought . The level of autonomy you are stating is not my perception…if a Pastor at a Protestant church said everyone should go to Bible study, I suspect most would.

 

[BrianH]

:yup: If a person doesn’t believe in the Real Presence of Christ, it would be hard to understand why the word of God was not the focus.

But from the other perspective, why focus on the words Christ spoke instead of the Word Himself!

God Bless,
Maria

Agreed. It is such a small part of scripture overall and we just don’t see the importance.
If I thought it was the “Real Presence”…I would be, I cannot actually say without being offensive.
BH

 

[MommyofFive]

As a former born and bred Protestant, this thread caught my eye and has been a very interesting read. I noticed that in some of the Protestant reponses regarding the “reading the Bible” issue, a point has been missed. In my past experiences in many Protestant churches, not everyone brings a Bible to church and most of my Protestant friends couldn’t quote the Bible either (except for maybe what they overheard in Sunday school). It’s true that a lot of Catholics are not great Bible readers, but I’m willing to bet that not many Protestants are either. I’m very familiar with a large part of our congregation that brings their Saint Joseph Sunday Missal to Mass instead of reading it out of the provided Missal in the pews, prayer cards and notes falling out occassionally!

Maybe it’s more noticable in the Catholic Church simply because of the large numbers of people…it’s wrong to pass judgement on one church because of the number of people who are or aren’t reading the Bible. A Baptist church is more likely to have “Bible readers” than a Methodist church and they are both Protestant (well, in my experience anyway), but I try not to say one Church is more well-read than another just because of my experiences. It’s more Christian to assume that some just frankly rely more on prayer than in reading. Just my view…

 

[Le_Cracquere]

MommyofFive:

In my past experiences in many Protestant churches, not everyone brings a Bible to church and most of my Protestant friends couldn’t quote the Bible either (except for maybe what they overheard in Sunday school). It’s true that a lot of Catholics are not great Bible readers, but I’m willing to bet that not many Protestants are either.

Oh, no doubt. And (see earlier comments on the variations intrinsic to Protestantism) some denominations make a much bigger point of it than others. I’d guess that Reformed and most self-identified Evangelical churches make the biggest deal of deep Bible study and memorisation. Even so, I’d bet that you wouldn’t find much difference between the average Protestant and the average Catholic when it comes to Biblical knowledge.

Two things, though:

1. As per my original comments, it seems as if poor catechesis results in levels of scriptural ignorance among a fair number of Catholics that one sees very seldom indeed in the Protestant churches. I knew plenty of kids in my boyhood Charismatic church who rebelled and left it, but give them this: they were well taught and knew exactly what they were rebelling against.
2. I think that most Protestant churches place a greater emphasis on Biblical knowledge, even if the practice doesn’t live up to the theory. I have no earthly way of backing this up, but I’d guess that if you took the mythical “average” Protestant and Catholic worshipper with roughly the same amounts of Biblical knowledge, the former would feel embarrassed about his lack of knowledge and think he ought to know more than he does; and the latter wouldn’t lose much sleep over it at all. This is not to say, though, that the one is right to feel so and the other wrong. As MariaG pointed out, a sacramental view of the church offers more than one avenue for apprehending our Lord.