Question

[Lazerlike42]

So an atheist can’t be saved (most likely), because he is by definition rejecting God. Bu non-Catholics can be saved. It is harder, because the Church has so many fountains of Grace through which God can help a person not to sin, but it is possible. Anyone who does not reject God and who makes sure they keep seeking and keep that Divine scuba tank can make it.

Now, if someone knew the Catholic Church was the true Church, or knew enough to know but lied to themselves because they didn’t want to join, or purposefully didn’t try to research it so that they couldn’t find out, then God will hold that against them because they are rejecting His deep desire for them to join His Church. But some Baptist that was raised to think the Church is evil and so never bothers with it can still make it if he truly seeks out God and does not reject Him.

As far as baptisms go, most are valid. LDS baptism is not considered valid, and I believe Jehovah’s Witnesses’ are not either.

But what about some LDS or some Witness or some Pygmi in Afirca that never heard of or knew of or thought baptism was good or necessary? Well, if these people are truly seeking God, God will recognize this and baptise them by their desire. He’ll basically see them looking for Him so much that He’ll go down and give them the suba tank on special delivery.

Now the Church teaches that this is all possible, though we are neither sure about it or do we know how likely it is, so we must continue to preach the word.

 

[Chris_Jodrey]

I’ve read the links except one, which wouldn’t open. It’s very interesting. I never knew that the Catholic Church was persecuted in Mexico. As missionaries, we would often have to get couples married in order to baptize them and always thought it strange that the religious ceremony was apart from the civil, which is what really mattered to us. I’m surprised at its history. But I don’t understand who was persecuting them and why. 95% of Mexico is Catholic, government officials included, right? I know that president Fox has shown his Catholicism from time to time, and the national culture is so saturated by it (there are numerous references to Catholicism in the soap operas, for example) that the persecution would seem very hard to believe. If you can get any more information on it I’d appreciate it, thanks.

As far as baptisms go, most are valid. LDS baptism is not considered valid, and I believe Jehovah’s Witnesses’ are not either.

Why is that, Lazer?

I think my follow-up question then would be, what if a person commits a very grievous sin thinking that he is serving God, such as a Muslim blowing himself and many innocent people to smitherines?

 

[Lazerlike42]

Chris Jodrey:

I’ve read the links except one, which wouldn’t open. It’s very interesting. I never knew that the Catholic Church was persecuted in Mexico. As missionaries, we would often have to get couples married in order to baptize them and always thought it strange that the religious ceremony was apart from the civil, which is what really mattered to us. I’m surprised at its history. But I don’t understand who was persecuting them and why. 95% of Mexico is Catholic, government officials included, right? I know that president Fox has shown his Catholicism from time to time, and the national culture is so saturated by it (there are numerous references to Catholicism in the soap operas, for example) that the persecution would seem very hard to believe. If you can get any more information on it I’d appreciate it, thanks.

Why is that, Lazer?

I think my follow-up question then would be, what if a person commits a very grievous sin thinking that he is serving God, such as a Muslim blowing himself and many innocent people to smitherines?

http://www.catholic.com/library/lor_010801a.asp<— baptism

As far as the terrorists and whatnot, this is one I have real problems grasping. I think most of it is my humanity. I am not God, and therefore I have not the mercy that God does. He can see these people as trying to serve Him, while I struggle mightily to do so. So I would say that if they truly, truly believe they are obeying God, it’s certainly possible.

That being said, there are two reasons I may say they won’t make it. One is that I’m not sure how many of them are really seeking out God. In other words, I would venture to say quite a few of them are just acting out of hate and potentially politics moreso than religion. This also raises the question of how important love is. St. Paul writes that if you have the faith to move a mountain but don’t have love, you mayt as well have nothing. So if they are acting out of love, even if they think that’s God’s will, I’m not sure.

The other thing is that the Church teaches that there are some basic moral principles that nobody can be ignorant of. In other words, everyone is going to be held accountable for murder. Everyone on earth just naturally knows that murder is wrong. So, that raises the question of whether they ought to know better.

That’s why above all we say they can be saved, but we don’t know for sure how or who.

 

[FCEGM]

But I don’t understand who was persecuting them and why.

Freemasons. They completely destroyed, for instance, the Catholic school system that would have greatly elevated the education level in the country.

This link will help you better understand the dynamics of the religious and social changes forced upon the country:

sspx.ca/Angelus/2002_January/The_Cristeros.htm

 

[reggie]

To anyone on this forum who believes that this post is a sincere attempt to understand the situation in Guadalajara and the state of Catholicism as a whole, and not a well thought out regurgitation of tired old anti-Catholic bias, I have a bridge I’d like to sell you. Careful reading revealed several digs at Catholics.

Let’s see, the “devout” Catholics were rude, insulting, close minded and fanatical. They were ignorant of Scripture and believed doctrines that are not taught by the Church. I guess all LDS faithful are fully aware of the bizarre doctrines of their own church and can quote all Scripture at will and not just those verses that can be twisted to fit those bizarre doctrines.

That the Catholics are the most sinful, is not SOLELY a result of individual ignorance, laziness or stupidity but also attributable to the corruption of the leaders and the priests. If that is true, then I guess that here in America with all the molestation
(you know, that thing going on in Boston)
we American Catholics must all be pedophile predators.

Those Catholics who do attend mass do so mainly to gossip. With everyone so sinful, there must be plenty juicy tidbits to discuss! I once worked closely with many LDS ladies in the PTA at my kids elementary school. I will only say that people in glass houses should not throw stones.

To the LDS missionary, the only good Catholic is a future Morman. Of course, anyone with half a brain can see the logic of Mormanism. If the person is good, someone who wishes to serve the Lord, live the Ten Commandments, tithe, read Scripture etc…then it is only logical that when they open-mindedly listen to the LDS missionaries, they will immediately convert.

Good Catholic = Future Mormon
Bad Catholic = Any other kind.

As I said the same tired old bashing. I have to say, I do appreciate the token acknowledment that even in the Morman religion, there are those who do not live faithfully, and gasp! some may have even been corrupt but then the dig. In the Morman church such things are handled with immediate discipline.

No, you don’t state in your original post that your church is better than ours. Your attack was so much subtler than that. But the entire thing is an attack disguised as a need to understand how if Catholicism is the Truth as we claim, how could so many Catholics lead such sinful lives.

I know you don’t want to hear religious comparisons, apologetics (you know so much why bother?) or defense. What do you want to hear. That you’re right? That Catholics are the worst of people. Shall we all apologize for our brothers in Guadalajara? Shall we try to explain that there is such a thing as free will, that all are sinners and fall short of the Glory of God? Should we try to justify their behavior? Shall we beat our breasts and tear out our hair?
What do you expect to hear from us?

Oh, I know!

Now that we have heard from you how sinful and corrupt other Catholics are (and by default Catholicism as well) , we, who are “good Catholics” will turn to you to open mindedly and logically to learn the merits of Mormonism and how we might become gods. Then we’ll be good little Mormons and never, ever sin again.

Thank you, Chris, thank you, thank you for your insight, your concern. Have you lost that bad taste in your mouth? Maybe it has migrated to mine. You see, ever since I read your “question” I have had the same bad taste.

Do I seem offended or defensive? Oh well, I posted anyway.

 

[Madia]

This link will help you better understand the dynamics of the religious and social changes forced upon the country:

Just a bit of caution on the link you provided. While the history of the persecution provided on that site may be correct (I didn’t read all of it), isn’t SSPX a schismatic group?

 

[reggie]

Having read the responses you have posted while I was writing my own, I have more to say.

You are right that the Catholic church has done a poor job of outreach to those who no longer attend mass. That is changing thanks to ministries like Catholic Answers, EWTN and other apologetics. It is true that the Church has been complacent in the past, but, that too is rapidly changing.

Catholic missionaries, unlike those in the LDS or Jehovah’s Witness faiths do not go knocking door to door with prepared and rehearsed spiels that are aimed at those who are not well educated in the Catholic or other Christian faiths. Maybe if they did, they would find quite a few ignorant Mormons who could be easily confused.

Catholic missionaries go into other countries and set up schools and hospitals. These poor people barely eke out a living and have no time to study doctrine. They are not capable of deep philosophical thought as most are lacking even the rudiments of reading and writing. Their minds are not trained for it and their bodies are as mal-fed as their brains. Catholicism is a simple faith for them, a beauty and grace they do not have in their own lives. They do not need any more specifics than that Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again and that Christ is in the Eucharist. That is enough for them.

As for those in the weathier areas. How are they any different than here in America? We are one of the wealthiest nations in history. Eighty percent of our citizens claim to be Christian. Yet, here there is rampant adultery, pornography, licentiousness, abortion, rape, theft, corruption and on and on. And these sins are common to all faiths, LDS included. All people are free to sin. It may be more commonplace in some parts of the world. It may be only that it is more visible. But, people are sinners regardless of race, creed or nationality.

So you don’t wish to judge a religion by its adherents but of course can’t help yourself. Well, please refer to the above paragraph.

Does the fact that people, professing Christianity as their religion, sin as frequently as those who profess other faiths in any way diminish the message of Jesus Christ? Of course not. Jesus walked this earth as a Man, spreading the Good News. People came from all over to hear Him. But, not everyone wanted to follow Him. It is the same with the Church. The Truth is there, but no everyone wants to know it and to follow it. It is their free will choice.

Jesus told His disciples, “Go and spread the Good News. If any will not hear you, shake the dust of that town from your feet and leave.” (paraphrased). The Church does the same. It proclaims the Gospel, those who hear it must decide if they will heed it and follow.

 

[gus]

The Mexican Revolution In the Twenties which instituted the
Party that rulled Mexico was Marxist.
They were extremly Anti-Catholic
Their propaganda was right out of Chick.
I seen government films while in England.
The media in this country will leave you in the Dark.

 

[FCEGM]

Madia:

Just a bit of caution on the link you provided. While the history of the persecution provided on that site may be correct (I didn’t read all of it), isn’t SSPX a schismatic group?

Yes, Madia, and a group of which I am NOT a member; but I thought the material helpful in addressing the question about the persecution of the Church in Mexico.

 

[Chris_Jodrey]

You mean Chick publications, those little anti-everything comic books? If so, I didn’t know they were so old.

These are the kinds of answers I hoped to find. It looks like the situation has been complicated in the past, which is why Mexican Catholicism is different in some ways, as one poster pointed out. So, I’ll take a little time when I get some to learn more about those complexities. If you find more good links let me know.

And no, Reggie, I am not here to attack, as I have stated. I understand your defensiveness, and no, when I started this thread I didn’t think too highly of the RCC, which is why I started the thread in the first place. If I have offended you, and apparently I have, I’m sorry. Obviously, some of my opinion showed through. As I said at the beginning, I think that simply talking things out with mature reasonable people would help that negative perception, and that is the case. I’m not sure if you didn’t actually read my posts or if you flat out think I’m a liar but I don’t really care either way. If you have anything constructive to say I’m all ears.

Well, Lazer, I guess your answer is a safe one, and more politically correct. I’m sure you know what Mormons believe about it. Our doctrine tends to avoid that shakiness. It’s a very interesting and sometimes complex doctrine, because it is really pretty important. Billions have died without any knowledge of Christ at all. Hey, let’s start up a topic about this somewhere else.

I’ll probably post a little more tomorrow, but right now I have to finish up some homework.

 

[Lazerlike42]

To Catholics: is my answer safe and P/C, or is it more or less correct?

 

[reggie]

I don’t need to reread your post. I got you loud and clear.

Pray, tell me chris, if you want mature reasonable talk, why did you fill your post with such snide derision?

I never implied that you are lying. I don’t know that you are or aren’t. I have never been to Guadalajara as I expect most here haven’t. We can only go by what you stated in your post.

I don’t think it unreasonable to assume that your perceptions may have been colored by your already poor opinion of the RCC. You give arbitrary percentage figures and we are supposed to think that they are accurate. Exactly how much of the population of Guadalajara did you have direct contact with? You make such sweeping condemnations, it must have been most of it.

I suggest you reread my post. I do not defend the people you encountered. I said that the poor in these underdeveloped countries are more concerned with survival than doctrine or theology. The intricacies of Catholoc dogma are not their main concern. They live the faith with simple acceptance because they know the goodness of Catholic missionaries that have done so much to improve their condition. You were the interloper. Did you come with clothes, food, and medicine? Did you come with school books and supplies? Or did you show up on their doorsteps looking all clean cut and acting polite with your Bible and BOM telling them that they do not really know Christ? Did you point out the few Bible verses taken out of context that twisted just right prove that the Catholic church is not a true church and teaches lies? No, they may not be fully cognizant of Catholic doctrine and Yes, some of their customs would seem strange to us here in America. But, there is no such thing as Mexican Catholicism or American Catholicism. Catholicism is the same everywhere. There are differences in practices. But the doctrines are the same. What the church teaches is the same everywhere, what the church accepts is that every culture will live that faith according to their own customs.

Those who were rude to you were probably sick of being pestered by you and others like you. It may seem to you that they are close minded, but it is more likely that they do not want to haggle over Scripture with people who twist things to suit their doctrine. They attend mass, hear the word proclaimed and receive Jesus in the Eucharist. That is all they want, to live their faith and not have to defend it to people like you. To be left in peace to worship God through Jesus in their own way.

It is a known fact that church attendance is down in almost all countries and within all Christian faiths. Not just Catholicism but protestantism as well. These are sinful times, people have turned from God and His word. Why? I am sure the reasons are too complex and numerous to go through here. But, you single out Catholicsim because the country you visited was predominately Catholic. I propose that even were you to be successful and convert a good portion of those people, you would still find the same sinfulness.

And guess what chris? I don’t care if you think I am being reasonable or mature; I don’t care if you think that what I have to say is constructive or not. I do care that you slink onto this forum acting all hurt that the Catholics in Guadalajara have ruined you for Catholicism making your mouth feel all yucky. You just want us all to get along, right? You felt you needed to inform us in America that those bad, bad Catholics in Mexico are giving us a bad rep. Well, let me turn this back on you. Do you have something constructive to say or will all your posts here be whiny, underhanded insults of the Catholic church? Be a man and say what you want right out in the open and ask your questions in an honest and up front way. Then you will get reasonable mature and constructive teaching from the good Catholics here.

Let us always remember what Jesus said to the crowd ready to stone the adulteress. “Let he without sin cast the first stone.”
Are all Mormons sinless? Or might they just be a little better at keeping it under wraps?

 

[Sherlock]

Chris Jodrey:

The government in Mexico isn’t all that bad, according to my basic understanding of it…

Wow, that’s the first time I’ve heard this. I’ve always heard it as a given (and reinforced by some Hispanic immigrant workers that I know) that the government is corrupt as can be. I’m not saying that Fox is necessarily corrupt, but that corruption reigns in local areas.

 

[Chris_Jodrey]

Well, you do have a point there. The police certainly are corrupt… they get paid dirt and so the socially acceptable and expected thing to do is bribe them whenever they catch you doing anything you shouldn’t. I am not that familiar with Mexican politics, probably because I was never directly affected by them, and I never heard many complaints. I think that in general Mexicans have a more or less neutral attitude about the government. I didn’t see anything like it is here, I mean. Political views here can get commented on heatedly, whereas there… eh. It seems that Mexicans are actually more concerned with OUR president and OUR laws than their old. Have you ever heard of that? I’ve heard far more rants about Bush and Schwartzenegger than about any Mexican authorities.

Another interesting topic…

I’ve had too much work today so I haven’t gotten to read much more yet. I expect to be busy the rest of the weekend, actually, but hopefully I can get some time tomorrow.

I hope that not everyone here shares reggie’s opinion of me. I know I came across a bit hostile, which I admit I was, so I apologize. I think I’ve actually been pretty open about my opinions and motives from the beginning… if anyone thinks otherwise, well, I’m sorry. Now, whether you accept that apology or not is up to you.

I used to post on ChristianForums, before I left for the mission. There was one lady there in particular who was very hostile, and attacked me quite openly. We did private messages over the course of a few weeks about different topics and by the end she was much placated. She apologized for the way she wrote, and I accepted her apology. I don’t hold any hard feelings against her now, and I didn’t then. Yes, I was offended at first, but working around it I found out that she was actually a good person that was terribly confused. I think it has something to do with what Lazer was writing about. Sometimes we do things we don’t realize the meaning of. Even though there are many with a good heart, their minds and natures blind them, so they appear a different way. It’s important not to be hostile in return to those that were hostile first because you may offend them, and what ever negative thing they may have thought and felt before is confirmed through your actions.

Having said all that, my opinion is starting to change a little. I don’t feel as strongly as I did. I still think that Catholics can be the most reasonable and well-humored of the bunch. In fact, there’s a guy named David Waltz, a Catholic who has written a few papers for FAIR (a Mormon apologetics organization). There are certainly good examples as well as bad. The same thing can happen anywhere, I guess. If a Catholic met a certain bad group of Mormons, even though he had known other good ones, it would probably affect his view of Mormons or Mormonism. The same kind of thing happened to me, but on a much, much larger scale. So ignoring the why and the wherefore I’m just going to apply the principle.

I’ve had some other thoughts that come directly from all this, having to do with the idea of apostasy, which might explain why I saw this as a bigger deal than some of you:

It is my understanding that Catholics believe that if God wants to keep his Church alive (which He always will want to do) then He will, end of story. So the apostasy of some individuals is irrelevant in the long run. However, LDS do believe that if everyone rejects God’s Church that it will cease to exist, that that can happen, and that it has happened. There may be two different mentalities then, because if I see what to me is apostasy I then suppose that the church of those people is either A) not there, or B) a different one. On the other hand, to another person it may appear that perhaps there is apostasy, but nothing that can change the Church. Therefore, if any of those individuals wish to repent it will not be too late for them. In LDS thought (or at least in my thought) where God is rejected He leaves.

What thinks ye? This is not to argue whether one or the other is the true case, but of whether this view of our perceptions is accurate.

 

[Chris_Jodrey]

Okay, I’ve read up some more and thought about it. I can understand why a lot of the things are the way they are in Mexico. A lot of it is cultural and based on a somewhat complex history. Now, whether the Catholic Church is responsible for many of the negative aspects of Mexico I will declare myself undecided.

I was still thinking about what Jesus said, about fruits, and I realized that he mentioned both good and bad fruit. Now, this is so that we can distinguish between bad and good things. It was said here in this topic that we should look at the positive things and judge by the best examples and not according to those who have never blossomed. Well, how long does it take for one to blossom? And so if certain bad examples of Christians aren’t bad fruit then what exactly is bad fruit? Surely it exists somewhere in the world.

Now the other side of this is that everyone has his own free will and can choose what he wants. Then all forms of religion and organization would be exempt from this judgment and it would just be up to each individual. Now, what Jesus said was, “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” (Matthew 7:15-20).

So, what are the fruits: the actions of each person? Then who is the prophet/false prophet: the individual? Going further out then, an organization may at least be partly responsible for fruit, the fruit being the members of it. Or we can individualize it and say that if the leaders of some organization have corrupt fruit (corrupt followers, arguably, or simply evil actions) then they are corrupted false prophets. Now, carrying that a little further, I refer back to my previous post; it may be that many Catholics don’t consider a mostly apostate church to be a dead church. Obviously that has happened in history, yet it is not grounds to accept that the Church was somehow no longer the Church, but rather that it was later able to recuperate. That might be where we differ. I think that if there is very corrupt fruit in a religion then that religion cannot be of God. Also vice versa. Basically, how the Book of Mormon describes that what is good is of God and what is bad is of Satan. Though, judging the difference between good and bad is another added layer of complication to the puzzle. And again, there are always cases of exaggeration, misrepresentation, negative bias, bad agendas, misused stats, falsities, etc, that are applied to all religions, in some cases more forcefully than in others, and I think that both Catholics and Mormons understand fully just how far that can go, so the question is, to what degree?

So, I think that there are obvious facts to be dealt with that are not lies or misrepresentations; I have also had personally bad experiences with many members of the RCC – I have also had some good ones, although not, I feel, enough to balance each other out by any means. I have come to understand these attitudes a tiny bit better and have a greater respect for the RCC in Mexico. I am undecided because there are so many complications involved, as I discussed above. You can’t just p(name removed by moderator)oint something and say, “Ah, that’s the problem, that’s the reason I believe (or don’t believe) in such-and-such a religion!” In fact, I think that anyone who simplifies it to that extent either has a biased agenda or simply doesn’t have a solid intellectual understanding of the issues he or she purports to have, so it either turns to laziness or unintentioned ignorance.

Anyway, these are my musings to anyone who might be interested. Feel free to comment (without flaming me, if possible).

 

[bookgirl]

Chris Jodrey:

In LDS thought (or at least in my thought) where God is rejected He leaves.

QUOTE]

That, actually, just makes me very sad. That anyone would believe that is almost makes what Jesus did irrelevant in their eyes doesn’t it? Is that why it’s so important for Mormons to go door to door, to be trained so stridently to spread their message? I guess I never understood it before, although in that light it makes sense now. One point you will probably never hear Catholics or Protestants of any kind debating is that God would actually leave any of us. He loves us waaayyyyyy too much for that. We can leave Him, sure, but the beauty is that He is ALWAYS there to return to. I think for the most part, Christian Evangelists (including Catholics), spread the Word to spread salvation, sure, but with that to spread the love of God, not to keep Him around.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

To start off I basically agree with reggie, the problem is Chris you have a skewed idea of the world based on your surroundings just like all other people. I will try to explain from the Catholic perspective what we see…

I recently returned from a mission (I’m LDS) in Guadalajara, Mexico. I was there for about two years…

First, your biggest problem is that you cant comprehend such differences between America and any other country.
There are 1 Billion Catholics in the world VS. 7Million Mormons, right here you have zero grounds to comprehend and form any rational conclusions. Your group is less than 1% the size of the Catholic Church…can you really compare who is the better “missionary”?? Thats over 1Billion people Baptized.

Second of all from your background you simply cant comprehend history. Catholics were in Mexico 500 years ago, the LDS faith came around about 150 years ago…can you really compare who has stood the test of time yet? Its impossible to draw any conclusions until the LDS faith hits its 500th birthday.

Also there is another thing which you cant comprehend… evangelizing in the real world. In the rest of the world people cant read, thats why Jesus never left behind the Bible or the Book of Mormon. The rest of the world is poor, they cant afford nor need to print billions of pages of books of Mormon so every home can have a personal copy. The idea that people have a personal copy is unrealistic.

On my mission, the most closed-minded, ignorant, and sinful people were the Catholics.

You came to the right place, here all your questions will be answered like you cant imagine. Up here were much more educated and have access to the internet, libraries, historical writings, etc. Jesus said to whomever much is given much is expected, were ready to answer any question and show you that the Catholic Church is the only true Church.

Another thing that we see that you cant comprehend is the relative terms like “closed minded”, “ignorant”, “sinful”, etc.
I have asked before when and where according to LDS teaching did the original Church that Jesus established go into apostasy, and I followed it up with, if that church could go into apostasy why cant the others? Nobody has the answers to that.
In terms of “closed minded”, around here we beg for an lds proof texts of how their views square with the Early Church Fathers writings, I dont think I have see any. In terms of “ignorant”, I ask where did the KJV Bible come from if the Church went into apostasy? As for “sinful”, it all depends on what you define a “sin” as and how that “sinner” is treated. Some groups dont have “sinners” because they refuse to associate with them, others have sinners, but the non-members dont know about them. Groups dont always consider the same things sins, eg polygamy, if the Catholic had multiple wives they are simply an adulterer.

If I had to put arbitrary statistics to it, I would guess that 95% of people in Guadalajara were declared, baptised, and confirmed Catholics. Very few of these would attend mass except maybe once or twice a year, if that. The churches there were really rather more center for gossip than religious learning. Very, very few ever read any part of a Bible, or even knew anything about it.

People are not entitled to their own personal copy of the Bible, nor are they entitled a personal 800sqft bedroom with heating, water and electricity to sit and read it.

In terms of placing statistics, I had a few professors in college who grew up lds and left when they were adults, they always cited reasons like bizzare teachings and they left and wanted nothing to do with it, do I conclude that any lds who decides to go to college is “intelligent” so he sees something wrong with LDS and leaves?

Perhaps 1 or 2% of Catholics I found knocking on doors were zealous or fanatical. These were ALMOST always closed-minded, always interrupting, unwilling to logically consider anything,

We can make they same claim to you right here right now, we have access to all sources, its relative depending on what side your on.

many times totally ignorant of the scriptures, etc.

How many LDS know the NT in the language it was written (greek)? How many accept the KJV as the one and only? Around here thats small talk, Im not saying were experts in any field, but we do ask the tough questions and try to get the best answers.
“Ignroace of Scripture” in this case is relative, another factor is that Catholics dont accept the BoM and stuff as Scripture, so sure we would be “ignorant of your Scripture”

(cont)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I did meet some (3-5) more or less respectable Catholics, but even they often had strange doctrinal beliefs that I know the Catholic Church does not preach (if anyone is interested I could give a very amusing example). All in all, the Catholics of Guadalajara (with few exceptions) as a whole misrepresent the Catholicism of the States (as it appears to me).

Here it is. You simply cant comprehend the continental divide of cultures. If your really really interested in what Catholics believe you will ask it here or look it up on an official page. To “evangelize” uneducated Mexican Catholics with doctrines, concepts, passages, etc WITHOUT running them by official Catholic sources FIRST (or aksing around at places like this) then thats simply unChristian and deception to go at uneducated people with them. In that case you havnt prooved to yourself that LDS is correct and Catholicism is not.

This is not based solely on individual ignorance, laziness, or stupidity of the people. The leaders there are probably most responsable. I have heard many, many stories of corrupt priests, probably from each area I was in. The last pueblo I worked and lived at had a father famous for his rude behavior, swindling of funds, etc. And nothing was ever done about him.

I could replace almost this whole thing with UTAH words and it would sound almost the same. Are you telling me that there is not an redneck Mormon equivalent to “lazy Mexicans”? Are you saying the local cops dont favor one person over the other, even though both carry the badge that says “to protect and serve”.

This isnt bashing you, its simply a wake up to show you cant comprehed these concepts.

Again, I could give some very interesting examples here. As missionaries, our view was that a good Catholic was really a future Mormon, which almost consistently turned out to be the case. To the people, the degree of their closed-mindedness is an indication of their religious piety. If they are unwilling to hear us, to them, they are good, strong Catholics. If they made fun of us, all the moreso.

Again, around here we take on any challenge. Would it be fair to call you a “bad mormon” if you were not open to answering the tough questions?

A few weeks ago we had a visitor in Church who was writing a book on the effects of Catholicism in Vietnam.

Again, you cant comprehend the real world. The Catholics already went through these countries, its not like your starting from scratch here, your going at ignorant people who have heard of Jesus, but are still ignorant. Yet you go in and say “Church of Jesus Christ”, well they know Jesus, know he was a good guy, maybe your not so bad…SNAP…the trap door shuts on them.

Now, Jesus said that we should know them by their fruits, and that can be broadened to any people.

Thats why the Catholic Church blows every protestant and LDS group combined out of the water, the Catholic Church has schools, hospitals, orphanages, shelters, food, etc. The other guys have either zero or just enough to sound good from the outside.

I’m not looking for intellectual apologetic answers, because I think I already know them.

I dont believe that, otherwise you wouldnt pray on the weak minded. You would challenge semi competant Catholics, or even people like Fr Pacwa and show him LDS docrine is correct.

As far as I can see, groups like SDA, LDS, JW, etc simply pray on the countries of unfortunate, less educated Catholics who were there hundreds of years before those groups even existed.

I dont want to leave you with a bad taste in your mouth, but the problem is the source of that bad taste… if you dont strive to learn why the Catholic Church is wrong from a doctrinal view from official sources, then you will always have that taste in your mouth, the bad taste that your gospel is not clearly the correct one.

 

[bookgirl]

Catholic Dude:

Thats why the Catholic Church blows every protestant and LDS group combined out of the water, the Catholic Church has schools, hospitals, orphanages, shelters, food, etc. The other guys have either zero or just enough to sound good from the outside.

I’m new to this board, and I’ve loved a lot of what I’ve read here, but stuff like this is not right. This isn’t a competition.

 

[Chris_Jodrey]

bookgirl:

Chris Jodrey:

In LDS thought (or at least in my thought) where God is rejected He leaves.

QUOTE]

That, actually, just makes me very sad. That anyone would believe that is almost makes what Jesus did irrelevant in their eyes doesn’t it? Is that why it’s so important for Mormons to go door to door, to be trained so stridently to spread their message? I guess I never understood it before, although in that light it makes sense now. One point you will probably never hear Catholics or Protestants of any kind debating is that God would actually leave any of us. He loves us waaayyyyyy too much for that. We can leave Him, sure, but the beauty is that He is ALWAYS there to return to. I think for the most part, Christian Evangelists (including Catholics), spread the Word to spread salvation, sure, but with that to spread the love of God, not to keep Him around.

You’re absolutely right. I worded that very poorly, I apologize. A more correct way of saying it would be that when we try to distance ourselves from God he lets us. I heard an analogy once that a little boy was playing hide-and-seek and it was his turn to hide, but then no-one went to look for him. He went crying to his grand-daddy and told him, and the grand-dad said, “Now you know how God feels. He hides but no one seeks.” So, apostasy isn’t that God abandons us, but that we abandon God. Essentially, we are the Church, and when the Church as a whole abandons God then the Church ceases to be God’s. Do I make this a little clearer? Sorry for the confusion.