question

[therese14]

I want to ask… I read that St Peter Temissis was forced to kiss the Koran, he refused and was martyred.

catholicsaints.info/saint-peter-of-temissis/

But St Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran and was made a saint.

How can that be? How can the church change their attitudes? And which attitude is correct?

Had St Peter Temissis adopted St Pope John Paul II’s attitude he wouldn’t have been martyred. But would that be a sin? Why did he refuse?

What do you think?

Thanks

 

[Gliggle]

Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran? Really? That does sound odd.

I looked it up and found this post by Jimmy Akin I pasted below.

jimmyakin.org/2006/04/jp2_and_the_qur.html

It looks like it possibly happened but no one knows why. It does though, appear to be a very different situation to that of Peter of Temissis, who was ordered to kiss the Koran as a sign that he had given up Christianity in order to save his life. I would say it’s likely Pope John Paul II would have done that same if had found himself in that particular situation, although we’ll never know.

If he did kiss the Koran, maybe it was an error in judgement (he was culturally confused by how to respond to a gift), he was mistaken (he thought it was something else) or it is possible he truly wanted to show his respect and love for our Islamic brothers. The last reason may also have been an error in judgement, or an act of true wisdom… I’m not smart enough to know which. Either way, kissing an object is meaningless, except for the meaning we ascribe to it. I doubt anyone took this action as a sign that the Pope was denying Christ, therefore, the two acts are different, and have different meanings, though they may have been the same action.

Had Peter of Temessis actually chosen to kiss the Koran, he would not be a martyr, in fact, he would be like Peter, who denied Christ three times, but became a martyr much later in life… And also, don’t forget, the head of our church, our first Pope. But I digress…

To me, all possible reasons for Pope John Paul II to kiss a Koran in this situation, are not comparable to the situation faced by Peter of Temissus, because none of them signify a denial of Christ.

As a total aside though, if the Pope had chosen to kiss the Koran in order to signify a denial Christ, he could still become a Saint further down the track, because that’s exactly what St Peter did. There is nothing wrong with the attitude of the church in any way that you look at this story.

 

[MaryT777]

Giggle:

Thanks for posting the link from Akin. I have never read it before and it answered my own questions as to why the Pope did as such.

Mary.

 

[Gorgias]

To me, all possible reasons for Pope John Paul II to kiss a Koran in this situation, are not comparable to the situation faced by Peter of Temissus, because none of them signify a denial of Christ.

This!

Peter of Temissus, since he lived in a Muslim-controlled area, was being forced to kiss the Koran as a sign of submission to it; that is, he was being asked to make a public sign of his submission to Islam over Christianity. That’s why he’s a martyr.

Without discussing JPII, we might say simply that, in the absence of being forced to do it, and in the absence of the intent behind it, the act is quite different…

 

[Karen107]

I think it should be pointed out that Peter of Temessus who lived in the 17th century was forced to kiss the Quran but it was not forced on JPII who was Holy pontiff after Vatican II and Lumen Gentium so this was a different day in age altogether. I don’t think anyone should forget that Judiasm, Christianity and the Muslim belief share the Torah, or the first 5 books of the bible. So I believe when JPII kissed the Quran he was acknowledging the word of God in the Torah part of the Quran in order to bring some peace between us by what unites us as people of God and that’s trying to seek the good in others so is very scriptural.

Vatican Council And Papal Statements On Islam.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm

Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964
“But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Second Vatican Council, Nostra Aetate 3, October 28, 1965
**“The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions. **She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and doctrines which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nevertheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men. Yet she proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is ‘the way, the truth and the life’ (Jn 1:6). In him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself (cf. 2Co 5:18-19), men find the fullness of their religious life.

 

[St_Francis]

I have no idea why popes go around kissing things, but istm that it is usually a gift, and they are just being polite and acknowledging that the givers have given him something which they themselves value. Nothing more… just politeness. The same way we tell our color-blind great-aunt that we love the sweater she knitted for us

 

[therese14]

I want to ask another question. After the Second Vatican Council, do we still pray for the conversion of infidel, heretics, schismatics, and pagans?

The definition is that infidels are Moslems, heretics are protestants, schismatics are orthodox, pagans are Hindus and Buddhists.

Why is the stance is so welcoming as if they are on the right track, and what about Mother Teresa’s quote, “Let the Moslems be good Moslems, let the Hindus be good Hindus, let the Buddhists be good Buddhists.”

I am a little bit confused because these are (Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa) prominent figures and they have been beatified and Pope John Paul II has been canonized.

Why are their stance different than past saints like St Louis de Montfort who prayed for the conversion of infidels, heretics, and schismatics?

Quote from Methods of Saying the Rosary by St Louis De Montfort:
Fifth decade
We offer you, Lord Jesus, this fifth decade to honour Mary’s finding you in the temple among the learned men after she had lost you. Through this mystery and the intercession of your blessed Mother we ask you to convert us and all sinners, heretics, schismatics and pagans.
Our Father, ten Hail Marys, Glory be to the Father. May the grace of the mystery of the Finding of Jesus in the temple come into me that I may be truly converted.

I think they still need to convert to Catholicism.

 

[Gliggle]

Hi,

Firstly, Saints are human like you and me, they can say the wrong thing in their life.

However, I think in this case neither said the wrong thing.

All people share an intrinsic dignity from the fact that they are made by God in his image and likeness. He has written knowledge of him on our hearts. But because of original sin, we cannot see him clearly, and we are lead astray by the lies of the world and the evil one. He allows some of his children to exist in more darkness than others. How much the people themselves are responsible, and how much God is responsible, we cannot know, and we would do both a grave injustice if we assume.

We can still pray for the conversion of others and yet treat their beliefs with respect, because to them their beliefs are real. How would you feel if someone insulted our mother Mary? Many people do not believe, and think it foolish to love her, yet they offer us respect towards our belief. Would we really believe they cared for us if they insulted her? Likewise we are called to care for others, and many in this world know only the mother of Islam or Buddhism, or other beliefs. Why would you insult someone’s mother? Heaven knows most mothers in this world are imperfect, but we do not insult them! I got this idea from Something Pope Francis said about the scandals where cartoonists mocked Mohammed.

Also, if someone follows their beliefs in good conscience, as mother Teresa suggests they should do, and as their conscience will demand of them if they really believe their own religion, it cannot help but bring them closer to God, even if it means they do the wrong thing. It is because of the amazing interaction of conscience(imperfect), reason(imperfect) and Gods grace(perfect, should we choose to accept it). If you start to understand these things you will see how mother Teresa’s statement is not erroneous. Either way, If Christians lived out their Christianity even half as well as Jesus asked us, I doubt there would be a single Muslim or Buddhist left on the planet. Let us not blame them for our flaws!

These are good questions you are asking, I would like to say more but don’t have time! And of course don’t take my word for it. Has anyone got some good reading materials to suggest for Terese14? My mind is drawing a blank as I have very little time today (eek job application procrastination!)

Although I wanted to add one more thing, even if Mother Teresa said these things, her own beliefs were very clear, she never hid them, and her llife itself was like the gospels, she must have converted many souls. it would be disrespectful to our own beliefs if we hid them in order to show respect towards someone else. This is not what she was saying.

And the simple answer is, yes, we should still be praying for the conversion of souls, St Louis de Montfort is correct…