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Missa_Solemnis

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I’m having a slight problem. I was just wondering if people could state their reasons for making such claims as “John Paul the Great is the Greatest Pope in the History of the Papacy” or any other claim where his papacy is put up on a pedestal to look as if it is the face of what the papacy is.

I have always loved the man, but not so much the Pope. My belief in what the Late Holy Father had done for the Church is similar to the idea of a certain news reporter covering the occasion of the late Pontiff’s massively crowded funeral:

“Pope John Paul II has filled St. Peter’s Square and emptied St. Peter’s pews.”

I must say that his influence is very good in some respects, he humanized the papacy, opened the doors of the Vatican and closed shut many of the misunderstandings people had towards the Papacy and the Catholic Church. Not to mention his efforts against Communism and the culture of death.

But this is something every Pope has done to a more or less degree. Why is he the Greatest Pope Ever?

If I were to pick the greatest popes it would seem like this:
  1. St. Peter
  2. St. Pius X
  3. Pius XII
  4. St. Pius V
  5. St. Gregory the Great
  6. St. Leo the Great.
  7. Benedict XVI (yes thats not a typo…our current Pope has in my opinion done more for the Church than JPII, this is of course coming from a very ‘traditional’ opinion)
  8. Pius IX
  9. Leo XIII
Cant think of any more now. But to be honest John Paul II doesnt even come to mind as list-worthy (so long as the list is “Greatest Popes”)

If the list was influential people, famous people, wonderful people, or canditates for sainthood, JPII would be easily in the top 10’s.

But I feel like he’s been over exaggerated (not to mention some serious flaws in his papacy, but this is not a thread to try and “degrade” the late beloved Pontiff)

I just want to know amongst those who might hold the opinion,
why is John Paul II the Greatest Pope?
In fact why is he even deserving of the title “the Great”
Especially when you examine the two other Popes who have already earned the title.
 
Have you read his biography? You downplayed his influence in the demise of communism: It was HUGE!!!

JPII had a big heart and was extremely compassionate towards humanity. He was also very influential in attempting to close the differences among people, in general.

I certainly wouldn’t discredit the popes you showed as “great” but I would in no way call JPII “un-great”. He was more of an inspiration than most people will ever be.

SG
 
Here’s my top 10 🙂 :
  1. St. Leo I
  2. St. Peter
  3. St. Gregory I
  4. St. Gregory VII
  5. Bl. Pius IX
  6. St. Pius X
  7. Pius XII
  8. St. Pius V
  9. John Paul II
  10. Innocent III
Honorable mention (in chronological order): St. Clement I, St. Damasus I, St. Innocent I, St. Nicholas I, St. Leo IX, Bl. Gregory X, Bl. Innocent XI, Leo XIII, Pius XI, Bl. John XXIII

(I’m a huge nerd when it comes to all things papal–I just love reading their writings and reading about them 🤓 :D)
 
Have you read his biography? You downplayed his influence in the demise of communism: It was HUGE!!!

JPII had a big heart and was extremely compassionate towards humanity. He was also very influential in attempting to close the differences among people, in general.

I certainly wouldn’t discredit the popes you showed as “great” but I would in no way call JPII “un-great”. He was more of an inspiration than most people will ever be.

SG
I agree 100%

He was a very wonderful Pope. And probably the best manifestation of Catholicism this generation has ever seen.

but the greatest Pope in history? Thats a bit much. :eek:
 
Here’s my top 10 🙂 :
  1. St. Leo I
  2. St. Peter
  3. St. Gregory I
  4. St. Gregory VII
  5. Bl. Pius IX
  6. St. Pius X
  7. Pius XII
  8. St. Pius V
  9. John Paul II
  10. Innocent III
Honorable mention (in chronological order): St. Clement I, St. Damasus I, St. Innocent I, St. Nicholas I, St. Leo IX, Bl. Gregory X, Bl. Innocent XI, Leo XIII, Pius XI, Bl. John XXIII

(I’m a huge nerd when it comes to all things papal–I just love reading their writings and reading about them 🤓 :D)
Ah Gregory VII was one I shouldve listed. 🙂
 
As for John Paul II:

Besides what has already been mentioned, one thing he did very successfully is he made the papacy a force to be reckoned with again in the world in a way it had not been since the fall of the papal states and the overall de-Catholicization of European civil society.

He also broadened the scope of the popes role as universal teacher. His encyclicals weren’t directed to just the bishops, but to everyone. He utilized modern media and transportation to this effect as well. Along those same lines he set the tone for the theologian-pope–he didn’t say “this is right and this is wrong” but more than any pope he expained things in great depth and produced more fruitful development—notably his Theology of the Body.

I don’t think any pope could have been successful in certain areas where John Paul II is heavily criticized. The culture that has been killing faith for the last 250-300 years or so just became totally out of control with the advent of Mass media. Combine that with indifferent and worldly bishops and priests and there was not much the Pope could do to keep people in the pews and men in the seminaries.

But, I think there is valid criticism in his administrative ability. I think the perfect contrast is Innocent III. His personal moral life was lacking, but he was great in his Church governance. John Paul II was a personally very holy, a great theologian, but his weakness definitely lay in goverance.

Of course, it is a rare pope who combines heroic personal holiness, exquisite teaching, exceptional governance, and a command of the attention of the world. And those who do, in my opinion, deserve the title “Great.” That’s why I put St. Leo I at the top. His doctrine (and development of it) during the Christological heresies forms a major part of the bedrock of our faith, he was exceedingly holy, he governed the Church extremely well–suppressing a robber council and taking commanding control of an ecumenical Council while keeping the uppity Eastern bishops (especially Constantinople) in line; and he appeased the Goths and turned back the Huns while being highly respected by the Emperor. 👍

Those are my personal thoughts anyway 🙂
 
I’m not sure why you have such a problem with it. For some, personally, he may have been the greatest. For me, personally, he has taught me more than any other Pope about suffering and humility. Why? Because his suffering and humility during that suffering was more visible to me thanks to the media than any other pope. Yes, other popes were tortured and put to death and that might have been an even greater sacrifice but JPII’s suffering was very real to most of us in the media age.

To me he’s “great” because I believe he interceded on behalf of my son who was close to death while I was watching his funeral. Thankfully, he bounced back with not lingering health issues which were a really huge possibility. Whether or not he receives the title is irrelevant to me but I have no problem with people hoping for it. What really is the point to pointing out he wasn’t the greatest? Certainly nobody is trying to demean any other of the previous popes who have officially received this title.
 
(I’m a huge nerd when it comes to all things papal–I just love reading their writings and reading about them 🤓 :D)
Hmmm… how do you feel about being used as a resource? I have a protestant uncle with a real grudge against the papacy. 😉

Unfortunately, I didn’t come into Catholicism until after John Paul II’s death. So he hasn’t made much of a difference in my life. I know that he has for my husband, mostly because he’s the only Pope my husband has ever known. It is much harder to identify with men long dead and burried than the one doing good works before your eyes. 🙂
 
I agree 100%

He was a very wonderful Pope. And probably the best manifestation of Catholicism this generation has ever seen.

but the greatest Pope in history? Thats a bit much. :eek:
I think that memories of past popes dims, and the world is most interested in the latest greatest. Which he would be. I’m no papal historian, but I’m aware of much of what our current pope, and his predecessor have done. JPII will go down as a Great, I believe.
 
I just have a guestion for the top ten lists. Why St Peter? He really was not that good of a Pope when you compare him to the other Popes we have had. Better then many but I would not say he was number 1 or even number 20. Just want to know what merits make him in the top ten occording to you guys? Thanks
 
I agree 100%

He was a very wonderful Pope. And probably the best manifestation of Catholicism this generation has ever seen.

but the greatest Pope in history? Thats a bit much. :eek:
I think that memories of past popes dims, and the world is most interested in the latest greatest. Which he would be. I’m no papal historian, but I’m aware of much of what our current pope, and his predecessor have done. JPII will go down as a Great, I believe.
 
I just have a guestion for the top ten lists. Why St Peter? He really was not that good of a Pope when you compare him to the other Popes we have had. Better then many but I would not say he was number 1 or even number 20. Just want to know what merits make him in the top ten occording to you guys? Thanks
Being given the keys to the kingdom by Jesus would probably put him up there. Also, leading a church through the persecution by the Roman Empire would make him qualify as well.
 
I just have a guestion for the top ten lists. Why St Peter? He really was not that good of a Pope when you compare him to the other Popes we have had. Better then many but I would not say he was number 1 or even number 20. Just want to know what merits make him in the top ten occording to you guys? Thanks
Being given the keys to the kingdom by Jesus would probably put him up there. Also, leading a church through the persecution by the Roman Empire would make him qualify as well.
 
Being given the keys to the kingdom by Jesus would probably put him up there. Also, leading a church through the persecution by the Roman Empire would make him qualify as well.
All the Popes have been given the keys of kingdom. ( Or that is how I was taught it.) Also not to belittle it but the first persecution wasnt that bad if not light compared to the other persecutions.
 
Being given the keys to the kingdom by Jesus would probably put him up there. Also, leading a church through the persecution by the Roman Empire would make him qualify as well.
The Story of “Quo vadis” If your familiar.
 
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