Questionable Baptism?

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Bookcat said:
Henry and Steve are lost at sea…Steve is dying.

“Henry I want to die a a Christian – will you baptize me?”

“Ok…what do I do?”

“You do this…”

Ok.
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I’m assuming since Steve is dying he’s not giving a theological treatise to Henry…he’s simply telling Henry…“Say these words and sprinkle me with water.”…“intent” really has little to do with it since Henry…I would think…has no idea what the church would intend.🤷 If it’s a matter of just having the correct words spoken and sprinkling water…it still is beyond me how that makes one a Christian if one simply wants to be baptized in water…but then…I’m not always the sharpest knife in the drawer…
 
Publisher said:
I’m assuming since Steve is dying he’s not giving a theological treatise to Henry…he’s simply telling Henry…“Say these words and sprinkle me with water.”…“intent” really has little to do with it since Henry…I would think…has no idea what the church would intend.🤷 If it’s a matter of just having the correct words spoken and sprinkling water…it still is beyond me how that makes one a Christian if one simply wants to be baptized in water…but then…I’m not always the sharpest knife in the drawer…
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He is intending to Baptize Steve …he does not need a theological treatise. But yes Intent as everything to do with it. One pours or immerses with water while using the right form and intends to baptize them…

It is not a matter of “how much one knows” or believes…but of intent.

If he intends to the XENO thing above…there is no Christian Baptism…it was not intended.
 
Bookcat said:
He is intending to Baptize Steve …he does not need a theological treatise. But yes Intent as everything to do with it. One pours or immerses with water while using the right form and intends to baptize them…

It is not a matter of “how much one knows” or believes…but of intent.

If he intends to the XENO thing above…there is no Christian Baptism.
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If it’s just a matter of one “intending” to baptize someone with no theological “belief”…I don’t see how a Mormon baptism would be different…the words spoken are the same and water is…well…water.
 
Publisher said:
If it’s just a matter of one “intending” to baptize someone with no theological “belief”…I don’t see how a Mormon baptism would be different…the words spoken are the same and water is…well…water.
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They do not intend what Christians intend.

See link above.
 
Bookcat said:
They do not intend what Christians intend.

See link above.
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They intend the person to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…isn’t that what other Christians intent?
 
Bookcat said:
If I go baptize Sam and say “I Baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” and intend by these words that Sam is now a member of my group where we see The Father as the Chief Alien from XENO and the Son is as his son and the Holy Spirit as the Force by which their star-ship moves through the cosmos…

well I have not intended Christian Baptism.

I know this is way out there…but I exaggerate to make the point.
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If I go baptize Sam and say “I Baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” and intend by these words that Sam is baptized in the name of The Father as the Chief Alien from XENO and the Son is as his son and the Holy Spirit as the Force by which their star-ship moves through the cosmos…

well I have not intended Christian Baptism but something else.

Where as when say an Atheist intends to baptize dying Steve …in order to baptize him a Christian…such is a different matter.

(no offense intended to anyone…including Xenonians)
 
Hence we recognize many baptisms of various Christian communities and Churches.

But Mormon Baptism we do not recognize as a valid Christian Baptism.
 
Publisher said:
Yet Muslims and atheists can baptize validly…as if an atheist or Muslim would have the intent the church has?

An atheist could recite the words required and sprinkle with water and have no belief whatsoever in God…so could not really intend anything the church intends since no belief in what the church intends exists…yet a Mormon, who uses the correct words and water…can’t validly baptize…makes my head spin to get my mind around that one:shrug:

Same with a Muslim…no belief whatsoever concerning the Trinity…but THEY can validly baptize…but a Mormon who does believe in the Trinity…though very very imperfectly…can’t?
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Publisher said:
You actually believe that a Muslim or atheist “intends” to do what the church does…when they have no belief whatsoever in what the church believes? As I said…I’m having a difficult time getting my mind around that. Not trying to be difficult…just having a difficult time understanding how a Muslim or atheist has no belief whatsoever in the Trinity can “intend” to be faithful to the “intent” of the church…just having a hard time with the “logic” I guess.🤷
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Actually, there just might be a reason to think that a Muslim or an Atheist could be more likely to have a right intention: what other intention could they have? Given the agreement to do something that is mostly meaningless to them, their intention is probably going to be something like “I intend to do what my dying friend asked me to do, whatever it is.” (and we know that this “what my dying friend asked me to do” is a valid baptism). I guess it might be close enough… A Mormon, on the other hand, could be intending to perform a Mormon baptism.
 
MPat said:
Actually, there just might be a reason to think that a Muslim or an Atheist could be more likely to have a right intention: what other intention could they have? Given the agreement to do something that is mostly meaningless to them, their intention is probably going to be something like “I intend to do what my dying friend asked me to do, whatever it is.” (and we know that this “what my dying friend asked me to do” is a valid baptism). I guess it might be close enough… A Mormon, on the other hand, could be intending to perform a Mormon baptism.
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As I said…I’m having a difficult time believing that “something meaningless” for them can produce “right intent” as they have no idea what their dying friend actualy intends them to intend…but a Mormon **could be intending to perform **a baptism acceptable to the Catholic church…given that many 'in the pew Mormons" have no more understanding of the ins and outs of their faith traditions than do the “in the pew Catholics”…

While a Muslim or atheist has no concept whatsoever of what the dying friend intends…no more than a Mormon…perhaps even less so since according to many Catholics on this board Allah IS NOT the Christian god…and an atheist has no belief in any god.

From an outsider…Mormon baptism is rejected simply because…it’s Mormon…but a baptims by Muslim or atheist is not…as I said…“could be intending” works both ways for either situation…
 
Publisher said:
As I said…I’m having a difficult time believing that “something meaningless” for them can produce “right intent” as they have no idea what their dying friend actualy intends them to intend…but a Mormon **could be intending to perform **a baptism acceptable to the Catholic church…given that many 'in the pew Mormons" have no more understanding of the ins and outs of their faith traditions than do the “in the pew Catholics”…

While a Muslim or atheist has no concept whatsoever of what the dying friend intends…no more than a Mormon…

From an outsider…Mormon baptism is rejected simply because…it’s Mormon…but a baptims by Muslim or atheist is not…as I said…“could be intending” works both ways for either situation…
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I imagine their are various things a person might do for a dying person --which they do not understand…

Again your getting tied up in knowledge/belief not intent.

“Please baptize me so I can die a baptized Christian”…“Ok”…

A Mormon “could” possibly have the needed intention–“please baptize me as a Catholic”…and he says “ok”…his “will” intends to do so --so that is his intention.
 
Publisher said:
From an outsider…Mormon baptism is rejected simply because…it’s Mormon…but a baptims by Muslim or atheist is not…
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A Mormon doing Mormon baptism is baptizing with the intent to baptize the person into a religion that is not what we would call Christian.

He is intending to baptize the person INTO Mormonism.

If an Atheist intended to baptize a person into “Atheism” --no matter what words he used…it would also not be Christian Baptism.
 
Bookcat said:
I imagine their are various things a person might do for a dying person --which they do not understand…

Again your getting tied up in knowledge/belief not intent.

“Please baptize me so I can die a baptized Christian”…“Ok”…

A Mormon “could” possibly have the needed intention–“please baptize me as a Catholic”…and he says “ok”…his “will” intends to do so --so that is his intention.
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That is what I was wanting to know…now after several pages it has been stated…so it isn’t an “absolute” in regard to an LDS baptizing a person…it “could be” a valid baptism…in the previous posts, it appeared an LDS baptizing a person automatically rendered the ritual “invalid”…
 
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