Questionable theology-does it really matter when picking a song for use in the Mass?

[snowlake]

But music appeals to the emotions, not the mind.

But Gather Us In–I had never heard that song before coming to Mass, and I love it and I’m glad that our bishop uses an instrumental version of it for his weekly radio show.

I also love “Here I Am, Lord,” because it was the song played at the Mass where the Bishop welcomed all of us catechumens and candidates into the Church. We were crying all the way through it. Again, this is a POETRY song, not a theological teaching tool.

I don’t see the point of this thread other than to rant about something that you can do nothing about. Why not think about more wholesome things that will edify the Church?

The appeal of music to the emotions can be good or bad.

The weekly radio show is a better venue for “Gather Us In”.
re: Here I am Lord:
Hopefully you would have cried had another piece been selected. It’s a really nice song, though. Some posters have said it is inappropriate in style. I agree, although I haven’t
said anything about that one until now. To be honest, I don’t see the poetry aspect. It seems pretty straight forward. I like it. But is it something for Mass? Just because you cried (who wouldn’t, it’s so musically saccharine IMO), doesn’t make it sacred music. God can only use what is there. That was the song that was there. I never said that God couldn’t work through some of these songs. He can do anything! He has to use what’s
on hand, though.

If you don’t see the point of this thread, why are you posting in it? Why are you even reading it? Evidently some others are interested in it. Others enjoy it.You’re certainly not bound by canon law to participate. Why not let others do what they think they ought, and you do what you think you ought. There are many threads that I’m not interested in or don’t see the point of myself. That’s why I’m not “subscribed” to them. I don’t horn in
on them and tell people that the thread they are enjoying (and think is important) has no point, and that they should do more wholesome things.

People are participating primarily because these are issues that affect them deeply, and they have something to say about it. Many feel that God has led them here to learn and
contribute, through His grace and guidance. Please leave them (and me) alone.

The whole point of many of our posts is indeed the “edification of the faithful”. There is really no other reason to be involved in this. It is ultimately for the salvation of souls through the Mass. One of the most important aspects of the liturgy is the music. This effects everything: our formation/catechesis, our worship according to the manner in which Christ has seen fit to regulate it (through the Vicar of Christ on earth, and the Successors of the Apostles in union with him), our psychological state when in a Holy place engaging in holy actions, our attitude of reverence and respect, and many more things , I’m sure.

I haven’t heard anyone “rant” except you! I think most people are trying to sort their thoughts, learn, and even adjust personal opinions and admit fault when needed. For the most part, I think everyone is very sincere. Why do you even care what we’re doing if you think this is a pointless thread? I will grant you that it probably takes up way too much of our time, but I’m sure that is the same with any of the other threads.

 

[Cat]

The appeal of music to the emotions can be good or bad.

The weekly radio show is a better venue for “Gather Us In”.
re: Here I am Lord:
Hopefully you would have cried had another piece been selected. It’s a really nice song, though. Some posters have said it is inappropriate in style. I agree, although I haven’t
said anything about that one until now. To be honest, I don’t see the poetry aspect. It seems pretty straight forward. I like it. But is it something for Mass? Just because you cried (who wouldn’t, it’s so musically saccharine IMO), doesn’t make it sacred music. God can only use what is there. That was the song that was there. I never said that God couldn’t work through some of these songs. He can do anything! He has to use what’s
on hand, though.

If you don’t see the point of this thread, why are you posting in it? Why are you even reading it? Evidently some others are interested in it. Others enjoy it.You’re certainly not bound by canon law to participate. Why not let others do what they think they ought, and you do what you think you ought. There are many threads that I’m not interested in or don’t see the point of myself. That’s why I’m not “subscribed” to them. I don’t horn in
on them and tell people that the thread they are enjoying (and think is important) has no point, and that they should do more wholesome things.

People are participating primarily because these are issues that affect them deeply, and they have something to say about it. Many feel that God has led them here to learn and
contribute, through His grace and guidance. Please leave them (and me) alone.

The whole point of many of our posts is indeed the “edification of the faithful”. There is really no other reason to be involved in this. It is ultimately for the salvation of souls through the Mass. One of the most important aspects of the liturgy is the music. This effects everything: our formation/catechesis, our worship according to the manner in which Christ has seen fit to regulate it (through the Vicar of Christ on earth, and the Successors of the Apostles in union with him), our psychological state when in a Holy place engaging in holy actions, our attitude of reverence and respect, and many more things , I’m sure.

I haven’t heard anyone “rant” except you! I think most people are trying to sort their thoughts, learn, and even adjust personal opinions and admit fault when needed. For the most part, I think everyone is very sincere. Why do you even care what we’re doing if you think this is a pointless thread? I will grant you that it probably takes up way too much of our time, but I’m sure that is the same with any of the other threads.

I apologize.

I understand now. You and the others on this thread don’t wish to read opinions that differ from yours or associate with people who think differently than you.

 

[snowlake]

I apologize.

I understand now. You and the others on this thread don’t wish to read opinions that differ from yours or associate with people who think differently than you.

???

 

[snowlake]

Does anyone know the process that a hymn/song goes through in order to be approved
by the bishops? Do all liturgical songs go through a process or only some? Are they published and then used, or are all of them subject to some sort of evaluation?

For instance, the Mass of Creation is no longer to be used. Is this because it was published and used before evaluation, or because the Bishops thought better of it
after the fact?

I know my bishop often evaluates the texts used, but I don’t know who (if anyone)
evaluates the musical settings. If anyone has information, I’d appreciate it.

 

[Newbie2]

Newbie2;6845028:

Which song are we referring to? I don’t recall mentioning one in specific.

I thought you were referring to BG’s post on “Gather Us In”. Sorry if I misread it.

It was more of an “in general” statement.

 

[Julianna]

???

I guess some of you are clueless to what Cat was saying. She just poured out her heart to you regarding the songs that reached her and the scripture she was drawn to from it. No, it’s not what “you all” like or would even tolerate. Can’t you appreciate the fact that the music/song moved her to the Church? I guess not…through the simple fact you can’t get past the song. Not winning many converts on this thread are you?

My favorites are We are many Parts…I love Here I am Lord, and yes, I like City of God. If you attended the Catholic Church in a small town outside of Charleston, SC that is what you heard at Mass.

Cat matched the scripture the song led her to…oh that doesn’t really matter…because it’s not what the hard line right “thinks” we should hear at Mass. Funny thing is, I never heard the Bishop in the Diocese of Charleston say he didn’t like it and wanted it changed. I was a sponsor for many Confirmation candidates…and it was the very songs you all despise…that were sung and lo and behold…the Bishop was there…go figure.

Can’t you just appreciate that a convert to the faith came to the Church through music? God works in mysterious ways…and sometimes…they aren’t a slap in the back of the head.

Cat…please know this…all Catholics are not like this.

One tin soldier rides away.

 

[Melchior_1]

???

**If you don’t see the point of this thread, why are you posting in it? Why are you even reading it? **

**Why not let others do what they think they ought, and you do what you think you ought.
**

**I don’t horn in on them and tell people that the thread they are enjoying (and think is important) has no point, and that they should do more wholesome things. **

Please leave them (and me) alone.

You don’t see how someone might take that to mean “scram”?

 

[CatholicZ09]

What about Trevor Thompson’s “In This Place”?

We are all hungry people, we need shelter and
strength. We are one in our hurting, we are
one in our pain. In our suff’ring and sadness,
we are saved by the grace of the power and the
Spirit that is here in this place, We are
gathered at *table as one in the Lord. We are
gathered as people who are living the Word. Our
hearts and our spirits are nurtured by grace. Is is
Jesus who fills us. He is here in this place.

All our lives are a Myst’ry; we see not where they
lead. We are asked now to trust you and we
know we must believe. As our feet become Christ’s feet,
we go forth with the grace of the power and the
Spirit that is here in this place. We are
gathered at *table as one in the Lord. We are
gathered as people who are living the Word. Our
hearts and our spirits are nurtured by grace. It is
Jesus who fills us. He is here in this place.

Though the world may tell us to look at our-
selves, we reach out to another where
suffering dwells. As our hands become Christ’s hands,
we are healed by the grace of the power and the
Spirit that is here in this place. We are
gathered at *table as one in the Lord. We are
gathered as people who are living the Word. Our
hearts and our spirits are nurtured by grace. It is
Jesus who fills us. He is here in this place.

In the bread that is broken is the Christ that re-
stores. As we take, now receive him, we find
love evermore. As the bread becomes Body,
we are filled with the grace of the power and the
Spirit that is here in this place. We are
gathered at *table as one in the Lord. We are
gathered as people who are living the Word. Our
hearts and our spirits are nurtured by grace. Is is
Jesus who fills us. He is here in this place.

*alternate text - “gathered together”

 

[benedictgal]

Does anyone know the process that a hymn/song goes through in order to be approved
by the bishops? Do all liturgical songs go through a process or only some? Are they published and then used, or are all of them subject to some sort of evaluation?

For instance, the Mass of Creation is no longer to be used. Is this because it was published and used before evaluation, or because the Bishops thought better of it
after the fact?

I know my bishop often evaluates the texts used, but I don’t know who (if anyone)
evaluates the musical settings. If anyone has information, I’d appreciate it.

I have done a lot of research on this matter. When I found ilicit settings of the Mass in the OCP books, I contacted the publishing house and one of the editors gave me the run around when I challenged him on the content. He said that their work is “approved” by the USCCB. I called the Bishops Committee on Worship and was given the run around until someone finally put me in contact with the Secretary. He told me that his office is a small operation and that they do not have the time to look through everything that is sent to them. He also said that it wasn’t really their purview.

Well, undaunted, I decided to get up at an ungodly hour and call the CDWDS myself. I explained the situation to them and they asked me to send them the questionable Mass settings. They told me that the music needs to fit the official texts of the Church and not the other way around. They also cited Liturgiam Authentcam. Thus, the Mass of Hope, Mass of Glory, the SLJ Mass and the Mass of Creation settings are ilicit. Full copies of the Spirit and Song and United in Christ books are en route to Rome, per the request of the CDWDS. They also told me to send a copy to the USCCB since it was actually their purview to review music. Inasmuch as we are going to be getting the new translation (at some point), the CDWDS is concerned about what is being used now. Just because the new translation is coming, that does not justify using ilicit settings.

Incidentally, they will also be looking over the contents of both books. That should be an interesting read.

 

[benedictgal]

What about Trevor Thompson’s “In This Place”?

It’s really bad. It’s almost like someone expounded on Gather Us In’s faulty theology. Even though it mentions Christ, it’s still horizontally-driven.

 

[snowlake]

No, it’s not what “you all” like or would even tolerate. Can’t you appreciate the fact that the music/song moved her to the Church? ] end quote

You must not have read my post. Of course I can appreciate that the song moved her. The topic of the thread is theology found in the texts of liturgical music. We’re trying to research this, and are discussing how it plays into selecting music for Mass.

quote:
[Cat matched the scripture the song led her to…oh that doesn’t really matter…because it’s not what the hard line right “thinks” we should hear at Mass. ]end quote

Who said it didn’t matter? We could just as easily say that the non-Cat experiences and views on this thread don’t seem to matter to her. In fact, she said the thread was pointless
(except for presumably her own points), and that we would all do better to pursue more wholesome activities. Who’s not appreciating who?
As far as “hard line right”, I’m most certainly not in that category. I am simply Catholic.
And a musician. That’s what drew me to this thread. And there have been many varying
opinions voiced, and although they all can’t be reconciled, no one has taken such extreme
personal offense as Cat has.

quote:
]Funny thing is, I never heard the Bishop in the Diocese of Charleston say he didn’t like it and wanted it changed. I was a sponsor for many Confirmation candidates…and it was the very songs you all despise…that were sung and lo and behold…the Bishop was there…go figure.]end quote

Despise? I’ve said many times that my thoughts on the matter don’t necessarily have to do with like/don’t like, good/bad. I’m more interested in appropriate.
Good grief. Of course the Bishop was there, and of course he didn’t say anything. No one is saying that the songs have been banned. We are discussing theology, which had it’s own little playground in the 70s and 80s, and we are trying to p(name removed by moderator)oint certain characteristics that differ with the opinions of the Vatican, especially ones that have been voiced by our current Holy Father and Cardinal Arinze. It’s more of a discussion than anything else. You don’t have to like it, and neither does Cat!

If you’ve read my posts, I said that this is better done by those who are experts in Theology and its application to the Liturgy. I am not one of these experts. Read the whole thread before you accuse others of unfounded things.

The topic is whether or not the theology in the musical texts affects choices for Mass.
There are many opinions. But that doesn’t make the thread “pointless”.

 

[snowlake]

**

You don’t see how someone might take that to mean “scram”?**

I take someone telling me to go and do something “more wholesome” as meaning
“scram”.

 

[benedictgal]

The Mass is a prayer. In fact, it is the Church’s greatest prayer. Perhaps some of you have heard of the phrase “Lex credandi, lex orandi.” The law of prayer is the law of belief. We pray as we believe.

If we pray as we believe, then, the texts that we use for the Mass, including those for the music, need to reflect that. That is why the correct theology is necessary. Unfortunately, a lot of these songs reflect the bad theology of the 60s-80s. In fact, the English-language Masses are not the only ones that are suffering from faulty theology. In the Spanish-language Masses, songs like “Hombres/Pueblos Nuevos” manage to creep into the liturgy. “Hombres/Pueblos” is particularly bad because it has a smattering of liberation theology thrown in for good measure. I remember one instance where the cantor was going to sing that when the priest filling in for the rector stopped her. He said that the song was influenced by liberation theology and he would not have it sung at Mass. Needless to say, that song got scrapped. The rector also laid the song to rest as well.

 

[snowlake]

The Mass is a prayer. In fact, it is the Church’s greatest prayer. Perhaps some of you have heard of the phrase “Lex credandi, lex orandi.” The law of prayer is the law of belief. We pray as we believe.] end quote

In “Behold the Pierced One: An Approach to a Spiritual Christology”, the former Cardinal Ratzinger wrote that vertical and horizontal theology “form an indivisible unity”.
It seems that in many of the pieces that we’ve been talking about, the horizontal has been
stressed too much.
I’m looking forward to finding out the opinion of the Church on this matter.

 

[snowlake]

How does one get to be a liturgical composer? Why aren’t the contemporary composers with beautiful, theologically sound works ever found in our hymnals? Are they few and far between, or are they kept at bay for some other reason?

 

[benedictgal]

How does one get to be a liturgical composer? Why aren’t the contemporary composers with beautiful, theologically sound works ever found in our hymnals? Are they few and far between, or are they kept at bay for some other reason?

Unfortunately, it’s all about marketing. Of course, an independent, liturgically sound composer could hook up with the folks who publish the Adoremus or St. Michael hymnal.

 

[japhy]

Snowlake, your tone (and others’) seems rather inhospitable to me, and clearly to Cat as well.

If you don’t see the point of this thread, why are you posting in it? Why are you even reading it? … You’re certainly not bound by canon law to participate. Why not let others do what they think they ought, and you do what you think you ought.

You have misread Cat, who did not say “I don’t see the point of this thread,” but “I don’t see the point of this thread other than to rant about something that you can do nothing about.” In other words, she perceives the point of this thread to be ranting about the questionable theology in certain songs sung at Mass.

Your questions “why are you posting in it?” and “why are you even reading it?” are not at all charitable or thoughtful. Is this thread a nuclear device or a volatile chemical that it is only to be handled by the musical bomb squad? Your “canon law” comment is yet another unnecessary barb.

And Cat’s question was “why not [do such-and-such]?”, not a command. Perhaps she’s really interested in knowing why some people exert such energy focusing on tearing down the negative and inferior, rather than building up the positive and superior.

Furthermore, this whole thread (and all the threads about the quality of music) are predicated upon trying to get some people to do what others think they ought to do. In this thread, it’s “you ought to consider the theology of a song before singing it at Mass.”

Many feel that God has led them here to learn and
contribute, through His grace and guidance. Please leave them (and me) alone.

This comment is completely out of line. Could it not be that Cat feels led here by God, too, and is troubled by what she sees? I’m not saying she’s a prophet, but many prophets in the Old Testament received the “warm welcome” from Israel of “Please leave us alone.”

I haven’t heard anyone “rant” except you!

I think there have been a few rants in this thread (and other quality-of-music threads).

For the record, I’m not a fan of a lot of the music I encounter at Mass – including songs like “Gather Us In”. I find some of them defective in theology (and not merely due to an un-allegorical eye), some of them unpleasant to sing or hear, and some of them just inappropriate for the Mass (while suitable for other occasions).

But regardless of what I like in liturgical music, I prefer charity in conversation, and I find the tone in much of your post here uncharitable. It looks to me like you feigned ignorance ("??? ??? ?? ???") to Cat’s reply, another uncharitable move. I could be wrong, and I apologize if I have misread you, but insensitivity and lack of charity seem to be in great supply in this thread and others.

 

[ProVobis]

You and the others on this thread don’t wish to read opinions that differ from yours or associate with people who think differently than you.

Speaking for myself, I’ll only read them if they’re short and to the point. One is competing against a lot of opinions here and there’s only so much time.