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AndrewAxland
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I doubt that very many western Catholics would have any desire to live in a theocratic state, even a Catholic one. I’m not even sure if most Traditionalist Catholics would support that.
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semper_catholicus
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We don’t always go by the will and opinion of men. It’s God’s will which we go by.
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phil19034
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Regardless. Natural Law is NOT theological. It is philosophical in nature. With all the Church’s Natural Law teachings, there are non-Catholics & atheists who agree with the Church on these points. Maybe not on all of them at the same time, but still they are not theological at their root.phil19034:
Except, ‘natural law’ as held by the Church is exactly that - a belief of the Church. Very few outside the Church see it as anything else. So while Catholics make the distinction, a person denied the right to marry on the basis of the Catholic belief in ‘natural law’ will rightly conclude that Catholic beliefs are being imposed on them. As indeed they are.
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AndrewAxland
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If you are talking about the Catholic Thomistic brand of natural law, it is purely theological. The rest of your post is a tautology.
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guanophore
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Of course. Becoming Catholic would involve becoming Christian, being filled with the Spirit, and being able to embrace the radical lifestyle Christ demands.
Of course any citizen should have freedom to participate, but Catholic clergy CHOOSE to relinquish many freedoms to give themselves solely to the Church. When they do this, they are no longer eligible for political office.
Individual participation is not the same as “an organized religion” having power. If citizens who embrace a certain religion occupy secular offices, this does not mean their “organized religious” affiliation occupies the office.
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Genesis315
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Everyone tries to legislate their own morality so why can’t Catholics?
Anyway, we support separation of Church and State meaning there are two powers with two different orbits of responsibility, the temporal and the spiritual. We do not support the separation of truth or God and state. Caesar is not exempt from giving to God what is God’s. Since both the state and Church serve the good of the same people, they should work together in harmony.
To break it down, Catholic doctrine proposes that the civil power exists to serve the common good (CCC=Catechism of the Catholic Church):
Since authority comes from God, as the passage you cite in Romans 13 notes, it must be exercised according to His law:
Anyway, we support separation of Church and State meaning there are two powers with two different orbits of responsibility, the temporal and the spiritual. We do not support the separation of truth or God and state. Caesar is not exempt from giving to God what is God’s. Since both the state and Church serve the good of the same people, they should work together in harmony.
To break it down, Catholic doctrine proposes that the civil power exists to serve the common good (CCC=Catechism of the Catholic Church):
So what is the common good?
Notice how it also includes the spiritual well being of the community.
Since authority comes from God, as the passage you cite in Romans 13 notes, it must be exercised according to His law:
Man’s true good is only found in the true religion, so the state should take this into account:
Since the Church is the custodian of this truth, it can pass judgment on the state in this regard:
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wkj_123
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And would this ideal government of yours make other religions illegal? Force conversion?
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semper_catholicus
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Did I say make other religions illegal? No. I said govern the nation according to Christian principles.
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wkj_123
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That’s why I was asking? What do you mean by Christian principals? Like banning gay marriage? Or mandating religious involvement for citizens?
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1ke
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Well, not when you really look into the details. It was often the Christian kings, particularly the French kings trying to control the Church.
But, the big thing that you really need to understand is the concept of Christendom and what that meant. Nations weren’t nation states they way they are now. Christendom was a thing, and yes, church and state were tied together in ways that they are not tied together now.
That’s a modern concept. That isn’t what the secular lords and kings would have thought they were doing nor the Church.
And, don’t we still “legislate morality”? We regulate drugs, alcohol, gambling, prostitution, the speed limit, abortion, whether or not you can use plastic bags-- any number of things based on SOMEONE’S idea of right, wrong, or “best”. Society makes decisions, in a democracy or republic that might look different than in a socialist or communist regime, an oligarchy, a monarchy. Sometimes those are based on religions, sometimes on a different basis for what is "right’ or “good” or “just”. But ultimately, we are always making such decisions in the things we as a corporate body choose to fund, support, endorse, make legal, make illegal.
So, really, “legislating morality” is pretty much a non-issue.
Don’t know why. That too is a pretty modern concept. Frankly the concept of the modern concept of the state is only about 400 years old.
There is no one right or wrong political theory. The Church exists outside of that. At some points in the past the two have been aligned or intertwined, at present they are not in most places.
The Church has a rich teaching on this, it can’t really be summed up in a sentence or two.
The Church’s documents on social teaching, the Church in the modern world, economics, etc. There are a LOT of documents.
The Catechism has some information:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm
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1ke
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Um. No. It doesn’t teach that.
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guanophore
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Catholics should absolutely participate in civil government and do as much as we can to be salt and light to our culture. But the truth is, morality cannot be “legislated” . Moral conduct results from response to natural law and divine law. It emanates from an informed and/or well formed conscience. No law, no matter how stringent or specific, can cause these things to happen. What can be legislated are actions, and they should be. Those actions contrary to morality should be addressed by civil law.
This one is a little more slippery. I say that because it boils down to individual perceptions of “truth” and “God”. One sect claims a certain divine Truth, and someone else claims the opposite.
As Catholics, we believe the Church contains the fullness of Truth. Thus we do our utmost to represent this Truth in civil affairs.
You and I know that, but Caesar does not. God will judge the nations in due time, and in the meantime, we as individuals must give to God what is God’s.
This is what the medieval Catholics thought. We see where that got us!
The flaw in this is not God’s law, but the human understanding of it. The other flaw is in human nature. Because of concupiscence, and persons getting into positions of authority that are not holy, the result is that civil authority does not always follow God’s law.
We can’t even get members of the Church to do this. That is where we need to start!
1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
Once the members of the Church are following God’s Laws, I assure you that society will improve.
You are a person out of time! If only you lived during the days of Charlemagne!
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commenter
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The Declaration of Independence had little or no Catholic (name removed by moderator)uts, but is heavily based on Natural Law. The whole network of “Inalienable” rights that Catholics and all other Americans take for granted is eroded as society moves away from Natural Law. It is not much a Catholic thing, but rather a series of ancient truths the Church, and others, discovered. It is being called a Catholic thing NOW because everybody else (leaders) gave it up. But in the past it was supported by individual Protestants, Jews, atheists, and still is, to some extent.phil19034:
Except, ‘natural law’ as held by the Church is exactly that - a belief of the Church. Very few outside the Church see it as anything else. So while Catholics make the distinction, a person denied the right to marry on the basis of the Catholic belief in ‘natural law’ will rightly conclude that Catholic beliefs are being imposed on them. As indeed they are.
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AndrewAxland
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That’s a quibble on the words “Natural Law”. The concept of Natural Law that the constitution is based on is very different from the Catholic brand.
Tis_Bearself
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I believe the Catechism says “natural law” is expressed in the Decalogue, aka the Ten Commandments.
People instinctively realize that most of the stuff covered in there, such as honoring your parents, not cheating on your spouse, not killing other humans, not stealing etc is wrong.
When you start getting into details of fine points of these basic principles, such as whether divorce and remarriage = adultery and whether the state making war or executing someone = prohibited killing, is where forms of law beyond natural law start coming into play.
People instinctively realize that most of the stuff covered in there, such as honoring your parents, not cheating on your spouse, not killing other humans, not stealing etc is wrong.
When you start getting into details of fine points of these basic principles, such as whether divorce and remarriage = adultery and whether the state making war or executing someone = prohibited killing, is where forms of law beyond natural law start coming into play.
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phil19034
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How so? What concepts of the Natural Law are uniquely Catholic as you claim?commenter:
That’s a quibble on the words “Natural Law”. The concept of Natural Law that the constitution is based on is very different from the Catholic brand.
As far as I know, almost everything (if not everything) Catholics believe about the Natural Law comes from Aristotle - who obviously was not Catholic - and the Ten Commandments.
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commenter
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Actually Aristotle observed the natural law, as did Jewish, Protestant, Muslim, and and atheists. The Church, along with others, distinguished 3 kinds of law: divine, natural and man made (St Thomas). But even those who denied divine law assumed the natural law.
The government regimes that most specifically broke with the natural law were communism and Nazism.
The government regimes that most specifically broke with the natural law were communism and Nazism.
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guanophore
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The Church is a theocracy, and it does interfere with many people’s beliefs. If this were not the case, we would not have so many cafeteria Catholics.
This is certainly demonstrated in the burgeoning numbers of Catholics who dissent and outright defy the teachings of the Church. Even those within the theocracy are Protestant!
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guanophore
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Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
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semper_catholicus
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What exactly do you mean?
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