Questioning Church Authority

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I suppose my biggest issue has to do with the power of the priest to actually cause Christ to manifest. I feel that Christ is omnipresent and to suggest that a clergyman has the power to call him from heaven to me suggests that the clergy have a special communion with Him that is shared with the laity only through their beneficence.
I think you have that exactly backwards.

The priest doesn’t FORCE Christ to manifest, as if he had power over Him.
It is because of Christ’s promise, His command even, to “do this in remembrance of Me”, that the Eucharist is possible. The Church, and more specifically the priests, are following Christ’s commands, and not vice-versa.
 
Sound advice. Thank you. I know that I should discuss my issues with my priest but at the risk of sounding like a dummy…how does one go about this? In the confessional? Call his secretary and ask for an appointment?
You priest would love to hear from you - call the parish office and explain your situation. There’s a small chance that your priest is swamped with responsibilites - if so then CAF is a good place to start as well.

From the Lutheran standpoint - we’d urge you to explore and stay in your Catholic faith. While Lutherans and Catholics disagree on certain issues, but we say that the Catholic church is indeed where the Gospel is proclaimed and the sacraments are administered - so there’s nothing to be gained by ‘church shopping’ and a lot to lose.
 
No this is where the Lutherans differ in the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist…

The offering of the Eucharist is a priestly offering from Christ, High Priest, to be administered by priests just like every sacrificial offering has been done, by priests. People bring the gifts of bread and wine up to the priests who offer them up to God for consecration so the bread becomes Jesus body and the wine Jesus blood… It doesn’t get to change because we want it to change.

[snip]

The priesthood is a special calling by God. It is not the lay who get this calling, it’s priests so they could minister the sacraments to Christs Kingdom. If you take out the priests there can be no body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist. And once the host is consecrated it is Jesus so will be adored as such and it is beautiful to pray to Jesus in adoration, to touch God and feel His presence in adoration as is done in blessed adoration chapels.
We Lutherans would agree with this! 👍 (Except for the bit about apostolic succession - if we felt as Catholics did, then we’d come running into the Catholic church)

Sorry for my poor reply - was trying help with the OP’s question - it seemed to indicate that they may have felt that the Priest was ‘coaxing’ Christ into the Eucharist. When it’s really the other way around - Christ comes to us in the Eucharist through the priest at the altar.

If I had to give any more advice to the OP - from the questions asked, I would say that they are having trouble with some of the more difficult aspects of faith, and that they need clear guidance from a Catholic source to help explain those aspects.
 
As a Jewish Convert to the Catholic Faith, and having gone to Church of England School, I chose to become a Catholic.

Galatians. I: 8, 9

But even if we or an Angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than the one that we preached to you let that one be accursed.

As we have said before and now I say again if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed.

The Catholic Church is Founded by Our Lord himself, all the other Protestant Christians are founded by man.
Here is a list of some of them

How Old is Your Church?
AUTHOR UNKNOWN

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1608.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you are a member of the Churches of Christ your church began near the beginning of the 19th century in New England. Abner Jones, Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell were some of the most well known originators of your religion.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as “Church of the Nazarene,” “Pentecostal Gospel,” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

If you are Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.

When the Jewish people were in the Wilderness the Lord fed them with Manna, every day, if any was left over it went bad and could not be eaten, the Eucharist is this Manna.

Pray and Read what has been suggested, and if you can get hold of the Book of the Church Fathers in particular Ignatius of Rome, or Clement of Rome, you will see the Catholic Church at the beginning and it has not changed.

God Bless.
 
Thank you for your suggestions. I will seriously look into all of them. To answer your question I prefer popular works. I suppose my biggest issue has to do with the power of the priest to actually cause Christ to manifest. I feel that Christ is omnipresent and to suggest that a clergyman has the power to call him from heaven to me suggests that the clergy have a special communion with Him that is shared with the laity only through their beneficence. I won’t rule out poor catechesis or spiritual assault for my feelings.

I have learned from this thread that I need to read the catechism several times, talk with my priest and practice eucharistic adoration. All of this I will do. 👍
Your view may focus only on your relationship between you and Christ, to the ignoring of the relationship of you with the Body of Christ. In baptism we become a part of His Body, the Church. He built His Church, ONE Church, that is His Bride. We are called into complete joining with Him AND His Bride.

And this is how the Church and priests are acting. They are following His commands to “do this in remembrance”, and He gave “all authority” to the Church. He EXPECTS and DEMANDS that the Church and priests do what He commanded and be the channels of His grace in the sacraments.

It is not through the power of the priest or the Church that the bread and wine are transformed. It is through the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent to us and the Church. The Holy Spirit protects the Church. I think you also might be forgetting that God called those men to become priests, so they would follow His commands to “do this”.
 
As I mentioned I am struggling with my faith in the authority of the catholic church.
  • Take transubstantiation for an example. Try as I might (even after countless hours of prayer) I cannot fully embrace the idea of transubstantiation. The idea that clergymen can literally make Christ manifest in the eucharist is just too much.
  • the catholic church doesn’t necessarily have a monopoly on holiness. There are numerous accounts of non-Catholics performing miracles, and living their lives as shining examples of faith,
  • The necessity of infant baptism (baptism of desire applies to adults who are ignorant of Christ so why not infants?),
  • apostolic succession (not necessarily questioning the existence of it but it seems it is more of a prerequisite to join the church hierarchy than necessarily imbuing the clergyman with “teaching authority”
  • papal authority (why is the bishop of Rome given preeminence? The orthodox churches reject this and the notion that Peter possessed extraordinary authority),
  • papal infallibility (I feel it is completely man made, not traditional or scriptural).
To compound my issues I have attended a couple of protestant services where I felt God’s presence very intimately in a way I had not experienced him before. As superficial and trivial as it may seem to some I felt God’s presence most keenly in the warmth I felt from the other congregants. [snip for space]

Am I doomed? Should I continue to go to mass and “tough it out” ? Should I attend protestant services if the effect is I may possibly become a better ambassador for Christ? Are the feelings I receive at protestant services somehow false or can somehow be attributed to vanity, etc?
Hope you don’t mind, I made your points into bullet points.

It seems to me, this isn’t Church authority you’re having trouble with it’s that you no longer have the apostolic faith. The Catholic Church is the Church of the NT. This is the Church Jesus established and gave all His promises to. #[34 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11997086&postcount=34) All the internal links in that link are operational.

My suggestion, take time to learn the Catholic Faith. Others have given you great resources to persue. Above all ask Jesus for faith. He won’t lead you away from His Church. Satan WILL however. Just remember, Jesus does NOT divide what He established John 17:20-23 . That’s the work of the other guy. He divides. Don’t be caught serving that guy.

You mention
 
Am I doomed? Should I continue to go to mass and “tough it out” ? Should I attend protestant services if the effect is I may possibly become a better ambassador for Christ? Are the feelings I receive at protestant services somehow false or can somehow be attributed to vanity, etc?
If you feel that God is calling you elsewhere, the Church does not teach you are doomed if you follow what you believe is God’s path for you. Freedom of religion and free exercise of conscience in all things religious is a doctrine of Catholic faith…as you probably know from the Catechism:

The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in religious and moral matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of man.–CCC 1747.

It should be noted however that your questions are not based on actual Catholic teachings but what sound like anti-Catholic propaganda. None of the points you bring up accurately reflect Catholic doctrine. Also, all Catholics should be well versed on the basics of exercising religious freedom as clearly stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that it should not be a question. Having been lead away from the Church by Jehovah’s Witnesses at 17 and asking almost identical questions about the Church when I left makes me think you are getting these questions not from your study and practice of Catholicism but from outside anti-Catholic ones. I know I got these questions from hanging around the JWs.

To illustrate, you state…

“I cannot fully embrace the idea of transubstantiation. Consubstantiation seems more acceptable to my finite mind…The idea that clergymen can literally make Christ manifest in the Eucharist is just too much.”

Who said the idea of transubstantiation was supposed to be acceptable to the mind? In reality it isn’t. That is why it is an article of faith.

And clergymen don’t make Christ literally manifest in the species of bread and wine. Only Christ can perform this miracle. Christ does it through the hands of a priest just the way Christ brings the good news of salvation through your mouth to others.

If you are trying to get things to fit your logical mind then you may be working outside of faith. Faith is not about logic or proof. Faith steps in where no logic or proof exist. Faith is the substitute for evidence. It testifies as a witness for a truth where our logic and empirical evidence fails. “Faith is the reality of what we hope for, the proof of what we don’t see.”–Hebrews 11:1.

As a Protestant version renders Hebrew 11:1 about faith:

Faith is the reality of what we hope for, the proof of what we don’t see*.–Common English Bible.*

"The Catholic Church doesn’t have a monopoly on holiness."

The Church never claims to. Neither does it claim to be the exclusive font of all that is true. Since God’s truth can be found in mere creation, obviously holiness can too. It isn’t the Church that is wrong here, it is your incorrect concept that you mistakenly attribute to the Church.

"The necessity of infant baptism…baptism of desire applies to adults who are ignorant of Christ."

This is also incorrect. Baptism of desire requires a person to “desire” Christ, which means they cannot be ignorant of Christ. And baptism of infants is not necessary on behalf of the child to undergo as much that is necessary for the Church to do all in her power to bring the saving sacrament to all, including children. It is the Church that is under command to make disciples and baptize, not infants that are commanded to make sure they themselves undergo baptism.

"Apostolic succession."

If it isn’t from the apostles, why bother with it?

If you believe in Christ, was that not handed down from the apostles? Is not the New Testament canon decided on the basis of how well the books within match with the apostolic witness?

Why did the group of apostles exist if they were not assigned with Christ as an authority for the Church? Who do you want to have lead the Church, someone assigned by an apostle or an apostle’s successor, or someone who doesn’t have any connection to the apostles? If you accept the apostolic witness about Christ, why have you drawn the line at the successors?

“Papal authority/infallibility”

Someone has to lead, right? Jesus didn’t name all his apostles “Rock” like he did Simon, did he? He didn’t give all of them the Keys, did he?

And there’s no such thing as papal infallibility. The teaching is that a pope can make an infallible dogmatic statement on the Church’s faith. Pope’s aren’t infallible. They can’t make up new doctrine. They can only state dogmatically that issues of faith ALREADY held in the Church are unequivocally true and without question to be so.

If you feel God is calling you elsewhere, then Catholics will not stand in your way. We will not shun you for leaving us nor consider you a traitor. The Church officially recognizes that God can and does save people outside the Church. You will always be welcome among us as friend and family, even if you never officially return to the Church. You are not doomed.

But I want to tell you the truth here. Your questions are based on you having an inaccurate idea about what the Church really teaches. Because of this happening to me when I was a teen, I ended up in a cult for over a decade–and it was hard getting out! They taught me these same questions to ponder about the Church–none of which apply to the actual teachings of the Church.

So I would hope you would go to your Director of Religious Education in your parish and ask to learn the Catholic faith inside and out before you leave. Leave if you must, and God be with you, but don’t leave without a correct understanding of the faith, one where you know what we teach directly from the Church.
 
Not long ago a protestant friend of mine showed me an article claiming that more Catholics were leaving the Church and joining protestant denominations than converts joining the Church.

I was stunned.

I carried this “embarrassment” in my memory banks for awhile until I found an article (I will find it and post it) explaining the phenomena.

A Catholic lay theologian did an excellent study. He interviewed as many “fallen Catholics” as well as new converts to the Church as he could and found that:

Catholics left the Church for all reasons as mentioned by the OP as well as things like “better music”, getting more out of protestant services, and the Church’s position on homosexuality and same sex unions.

But

Every former protestant who converted to Catholicism gave only one reason…salvation.

Maybe its quality not quantity. 🤷
How is this helpful to the OP?
 
What you have described is pretty much why people such as myself are Anglican, rather than Catholic.

All of the advice that I can really offer is that you should pray about this a great deal, and then trust God to lead you.
 
I am a Roman Catholic convert formerly a Methodist. As a Methodist, I found worship to be designed for the comfort and feelings of the congregation. As a Roman Catholic, I find Mass to be designed to worship and glorify our Lord. I get more out of Mass because I feel I am respectfully giving to God rather than being there to enjoy my experience. It’s not about me, it’s about Him and I find comfort in that.

As for the authority of the Church, I don’t necessarily agree with all of the doctrine and teachings however, I do respect the Catholic Church as the one true Church that was founded by Christ Himself therefore, I will respect the teachings and doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.

I think you will find that you will not agree totally with the teachings of any church.
I will you well on your journey and hope that you will find peace with the Catholic Church.
God bless you.:gopray:
 
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