Questioning Mary

[AngelRose81]

Hello all!

There is a girl in my RCIA class that is having a big problem with the Catholic church’s view of Mary. We have had the Sisters come and talk about Mary and the Church’s view has come up numerous times but she still has a big problem with it. In her words, she thinks that people pray “to” Mary and that Catholics worship her. I know that this isn’t true. We venerate Mary, not worship her and we ask for her intercession just like we do the saints. How can I convey this to her in a better way for her to understand it??? Thanks for all your help!

 

[Pax]

I would suggest a couple of things. The first would be to go online to the “Baltimore Catechism” and look up all of things that it says about worship especially the terms dulia, hyper dulia, and latria. These are the terms the church has always used when it comes to worship and veneration and they distinguish between what is vereration and what is the worship that is reserved for God. Point out that the Baltimore catechism is an old catechism and therefore shows what the church has always taught and still teaches today.

See if you can get this person to read Scott Hahn’s book Hail Holy Queen. This will be very helpful because it delves into scripture and puts things into a beautiful perspective.

Also point out that we never offer the most beautiful sacrifice of the mass to anyone but the Father. Jesus is the most perfect sacrifice and all can agree on this. Malachi 1:11 says, “For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.” This is one of our Eucharistic prayers and clearly illustrates who it is we worship.

If the mass was offered up to Mary then someone might have a legitimate claim that Catholics somehow worship Mary as God or as a god. Clearly nothing could be farther from the truth.

I hope these suggestions will help.

 

[rr1213]

Have you broached yet the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and Mary being without sin? If she has a problem with Catholics praying “to” Mary and suspects that Catholics may be worshipping Mary, she is quite likely to have a problem with the IC. And, as you know, Catholic assent to the dogma is not optional. Is it better to deal with the concept now or later?

 

[dafalax]

Mary can be a long journey because her importance is unique to the Catholic faith. I might start out with the statement that in order to appreciate God in His fullness, we look at the way He works in our lives and the lives of others. To ignore the great things He accomplished through the saints is to deny a part of Him.
We also see that Mary is His very greatest work. He preserved her from sin and she used her free will to maintain a sinless status so she could be worthy enough to bear God Himself in her womb. Even one sin would have made an unworthy vessel, so because of her choices, God was able to come to us. She is the gate Christ used to come to us and He wants us to imitate Him and go to Him through her.
I would recommend Hail Holy Queen by Scott Hahn; it explains some pretty good stuff, like the status of the Queen mother in Jewish history and how Mary’s intercessions are much like King David’s mother’s requests to him that he honored.
Also tell her (gently!) that when you say you don’t need the prayers of others, it is Satan’s appeal to your pride. In the old testament we are told that God hears the prayers of the righteous man more than the unrighteous. We must humble ourselves and ask for those holier than ourselves, both living and nonliving, to pray for us. We can, of course, pray for ourselves, but i’d rather have someone better than me doing it. Who was more holy than Mary? (Except Jesus, but it would be silly to ask Jesus to pray for you since He’s God; you pray to Him, duh).
Anyhoo, tell her to take her time with Mary and pray to the Holy Spirit about it. God can lead people better than any of us. Oh, and pray for her, too.

 

[AngelRose81]

Have you broached yet the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and Mary being without sin? If she has a problem with Catholics praying “to” Mary and suspects that Catholics may be worshipping Mary, she is quite likely to have a problem with the IC. And, as you know, Catholic assent to the dogma is not optional. Is it better to deal with the concept now or later?

This could be part of the problem, I think. This topic wasn’t covered as well as it should have been during RCIA, in my opinion. We are spending 2 weeks each on the sacraments and I’m guessing we might go into the IC and similar topics more before the Easter Vigil but we have lost a lot of people out of RCIA for various reasons and I wonder if it was because of things concerning Mary and prayer, and things like that. I don’t think she is going to leave b/c she is in it with her boyfriend and they are getting married so I think she will just have some problems with certian doctrines.

Also,
thanks for your responses. They are very helpful and I think maybe she will understand a little better. Just keep her and the rest of our RCIA in your prayers! Thanks again!

-Kristy

 

[Fidelis]

See if you can get this person to read Scott Hahn’s book Hail Holy Queen. This will be very helpful because it delves into scripture and puts things into a beautiful perspective.

I know nothing about this girl, but, depending on her literacy level, Dr. Hahn’s excellent book may be a bit over her head. I’d start with something simpler like these two:

shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-B0492.html?L+scstore+dydh3216ffdbb1db+1168902143

shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-CB012.html?L+scstore+dydh3216ffdbb1db+1168902143

If her problem is more basic, like prayers to the saints in general, give her a copy of this:

Praying To Saints
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[rr1213]

This could be part of the problem, I think. This topic wasn’t covered as well as it should have been during RCIA, in my opinion. We are spending 2 weeks each on the sacraments and I’m guessing we might go into the IC and similar topics more before the Easter Vigil but we have lost a lot of people out of RCIA for various reasons and I wonder if it was because of things concerning Mary and prayer, and things like that. I don’t think she is going to leave b/c she is in it with her boyfriend and they are getting married so I think she will just have some problems with certian doctrines.

If she is coming from a Protestant background, the Marian doctrines are likely to be big stumbling blocks for her, as with most Protestants.

 

[AngelRose81]

If she is coming from a Protestant background, the Marian doctrines are likely to be big stumbling blocks for her, as with most Protestants.

She is. She is coming from a Southern Baptist background so she still even talks about being “saved” and things.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Have you broached yet the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and Mary being without sin? If she has a problem with Catholics praying “to” Mary and suspects that Catholics may be worshipping Mary, she is quite likely to have a problem with the IC. And, as you know, Catholic assent to the dogma is not optional. Is it better to deal with the concept now or later?

rr1213-

I understand that you are a Protestant, correct?

May I ask if you are really interested in this young girl’s difficulty with a dogma of the Catholic Church that has been infallibly defined?

Or are you primarily seeking to simply sow a little seed of doubt in the mind of the OP?

I apologize in advance if your motives are pure, but you see, there are so many non-Catholics who seem to delight in leading Catholics from the true faith that I’m always a little leery when someone does not provide the correct answer to the question but offers additional stumbling blocks instead. :tsktsk:

 

[valient_Lucy]

I think that someone should talk to her and listen to her troubles and objections specifically, and then you can figure out how to approach them.
For the worshipping Mary charge, point out that for Catholics, the form of worship is the Mass. If a Catholic offered a Mass to Mary, or attempted to transform the bread and wine into the body and blood of Mary, that would certainly be idolatry.

Make sure she understands the Communion of Saints, and understands that Mary and the Saints are gifts from God.

Above all, pray for her, and be patient. Praying the Hail Mary or seeking the intercession of the Saints are the kind of things you get struck by lightening for, from a Protestant perspective.

 

[rwoehmke]

First off I would offer that there is no way, except maybe overhearing the words of prayer that someone other than the prayer can tell if one is worshipping or venerating(honoring) a spiritual being. We honor and venerate parents, siblings, maybe even the President all the time and don’t call that worship. We might ask Tom, Dick, and Harry to pray for us, but somehow asking someone already in heaven to pray for us is not OK. If people once understand the Mystical Body of Christ as it is discribed by Paul, it becomes much easier to understand why we might pray (make requests for help) from the Saints. Would one go for dinner at a friends house and not speak to his mother if she was present? Mary does seem to present a block for many potential converts, but in my opinion, it is actually a lot of misunderstanding of various forms of prayer and just maybe there are some Catholics who go “overboard” with Mary.

 

[rwoehmke]

In addition I would wonder since she is in class with her boy friend, is she really interested in the Catholic Faith or is she “doing it for him.”? As an RCIA instructor myself, I would be careful in a situation like this lest you gain a Catholic for a few years and then she walks away from it because she never really wanted to be Catholic in the first place. Luv is so so wonderful you see.

 

[marci]

Hello all!

There is a girl in my RCIA class that is having a big problem with the Catholic church’s view of Mary. We have had the Sisters come and talk about Mary and the Church’s view has come up numerous times but she still has a big problem with it. In her words, she thinks that people pray “to” Mary and that Catholics worship her. I know that this isn’t true. We venerate Mary, not worship her and we ask for her intercession just like we do the saints. How can I convey this to her in a better way for her to understand it??? Thanks for all your help!

The only thing I would add to the other posts is that although it’s great to arm yourself with church teaching and scripture to defend Marian devotion, that may not be something she is ready for yet. I have been catholic all my life and there are some teachings that I can not reason my way through, or will ever fully understand, but through faith I accept these things as truths.

You didn’t say in your OP, but there may be other things she struggles with like the Real Pressence, Confession or purgatory. (many protestants do). So I think the best approach may not be a strictly academic one.

I have a deep love for Mary. I feel connected to her on a personal level because she represents for me motherhood in it’s perfection. Whenever I am struggling with my own weekness as a mother, I have her to run to and she comforts me. That is not to say that I don’t have love and devotion for Jesus, but it was He that gave Mary to me and to all of us.
"When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son.’ Then He said to the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother.’ ".
John 19:26-27

As He was dying on the cross, Jesus gave his Mary to us and He entrusted us to her, He knew she would be a perfect advocate for all of us.

What I would ask her is How do you think Jesus wants us to love His mother? How He must have loved her. Through her obedience to God was born a Savior. She cared for him, raised him, and loved him more than any of us could imagine. She knew Him as one who suffered through childbirth, nursed Him, cared for Him, worried about Him. Then watched as He grew into manhood and started His Father’s ministry.

How she must have worried about His safety when He preached the Gospels knowing that it would lead to His Crucifixion. And then, never waivering in her obidience and never leaving his side, she stood by him unto the end. She knew who He was, she knew that He could have ended the suffering with a blink of an eye. And yet she never asked him to. She remained faithful to Him in His life and His death.

How can we not admire, love, venerate, and honor this most holy of women, this woman most favored by God? I know that Christ rejoices when we honor His mother.

 

[rr1213]

rr1213-

I understand that you are a Protestant, correct?

May I ask if you are really interested in this young girl’s difficulty with a dogma of the Catholic Church that has been infallibly defined?

Or are you primarily seeking to simply sow a little seed of doubt in the mind of the OP?

I apologize in advance if your motives are pure, but you see, there are so many non-Catholics who seem to delight in leading Catholics from the true faith that I’m always a little leery when someone does not provide the correct answer to the question but offers additional stumbling blocks instead. :tsktsk:

I haven’t exactly hidden my religious affiliation; it’s in my signature for gosh sakes. You don’t even need to go to my profile to see it.

Moreover, I’ve not raised a stumbling block in the OP’s path or anyone elses in this thread. Read my posts again.

As a Protestant, however, I certainly understand how the IC would be a obstacle to conversion to the Catholic Church, especially since the matter has been dogmatically defined thereby binding the conscience of all faithful Catholics. As to whether or not the OP wishes to broach the issue of the IC with her friend in RCIA is up to her. Nonetheless, if the girl in RCIA is having problems coming to grips with the concept of praying to the BVM --which is merely an extension of the Communion of Saints-- as a Baptist she’s likely to have a conniption fit when she realizes that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was without sin. You’ve posted here long enough and have read enough posts from Protestants to know that I am telling the truth.

So…the question is what do you do? Do you address the subject upfront now and allow her to consider and be comfortable with the answers you supply…or do you wait until she converts to Catholicism and then has a crisis of conscience? Personally I’d be candid with her and address the issue now…but then, as you noted, I have another agenda.

 

[Church_Militant]

Hello all!

There is a girl in my RCIA class that is having a big problem with the Catholic church’s view of Mary. We have had the Sisters come and talk about Mary and the Church’s view has come up numerous times but she still has a big problem with it. In her words, she thinks that people pray “to” Mary and that Catholics worship her. I know that this isn’t true. We venerate Mary, not worship her and we ask for her intercession just like we do the saints. How can I convey this to her in a better way for her to understand it??? Thanks for all your help!

There are a couple of very good sources that I can refer you to for this one.

Mary & The Bible and The Communion of Saints Both are FREE MP3s that you can download, burn to CDs, and give her to help. The notes for both are on the booklets link and I suggest that you print them and take 'em to her for better study.

There is also a superior FREE course available from The Catholic Home Study Service that I highly recommend. http://www.amm.org/chss/images/chss9.gif
Pax tecum,

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Here is a site which has been enormously helpful to me in explaining Mary and other Catholic beliefs to someone coming from an Evangelical background (though I understand your friend may not be evangelical, this is still helpful because of all the scripture)

Also, try www.scripturecatholic.com. Very good stuff there.

You might also want to reflect with your friend on the fact that Christ was the perfect Son and therefore offered the perfect honor and love to His mother. Catholics try to love her in the same way Christ did. Protestants, for the most part, don’t seem to try to love her at all. They seem to be of the mind that it takes away from honoring Jesus, when in fact, the opposite is true. By honoring His mother, we more fully honor Him.

As your friend if she believes that Mary is alive in Christ in Heaven or not. If she is alive in Heaven, as Catholics believe, then surely she can hear our prayers. After all, God gave St. John the gift of hearing what the great multitude was saying, so IMO, the precedent is set. Why wouldn’t Mary be able to hear our petitions? And if she can hear our petitions, why would she not lovingly intercede for us as she did for the wedding party at Cana? Lastly, “the prayers of the righteous man availeth much” James 5:16. Who is more righteous than the saints who are united with Christ? Why wouldn’t their prayers be more effective than our own?

Remember above all else that a prayer to Mary or any saint is a petition for intercession. This form of prayer is not worship–even the dictionary gives word “prayer” multiple definitions and “a petition” is the definition that we are talking about here. We know that all power and glory is God’s alone. We know that saints do not “answer prayer requests”, but that they pray to the Lord for us and then He chooses how to answer. Hope that helps.

 

[Jeanette_L]

As a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism myself, I can assure you that unless her heart’s longing is to follow the truth, not just her boyfriend, she may not ever receive the grace to understand these doctrines that she has been taught were heretical in her Protestant life.

Receiving the understanding comes only in a humble and desperate search before God to know the Truth as has been revealed to His Church, no matter the cost to yourself, i.e., whether it be the cost of your family, friends, or the comfort of doctrines that you have always held to be true but aren’t. If you come to the table with a combative spirit, determined to prove the Church wrong, you will leave with a combative spirit and no change of mind.

Now, having said this, I went through a period where I also had a hard time with Marian doctrines, they were my last hurdle. But I desperately wanted to know for sure, one way or the other. And I tearfully and prayerfully begged God for guidance, because if they were false, I wanted no part in them, but if they were true, I didn’t want to turn from them either, but embrace all that God has given.

Until a Protestant comes with this desperation for all of God in all His truth, I’m afraid reason and all the arguments in the world are wasted. And even this desperation is a result of an act of God’s grace! This initial grace may be given because someone has prayed for them, and I think that’s where I would put most of my effort when it comes to an unbeliever. And when they look as though they are truly searching, then the right books, the right conversations may be useful.

I know that when I reach the other side, I’m going to ask who it was who prayed for me, I want to kiss them and thank them!

 

[Joseph_Smith]

To answer your question you need look into what the holy scriptures teach on such. It is written that we have one mediator between God and man that being the Lord Jesus Christ. Also it is writen that all have sinned and fallen short that all also includes Mary. Mary is not once refered to in the bible as mary the Mother of God this is a latter added by the catholic church. God from the beginning said you shall not worship any other God. So in praying to mary which is a from of worship you sin against God. Mary did not die on a cross. Nor is she any different then any other created person with the execption of being allowed to carry Christ Jesus as a child and to be his earthly mother for a short time. Yeat even Christ in a manner denounced her at the cross and on one other occasion. Do we honor mary? yes. Do we pray to mary? NO
She can’t answer she is in a state of sleep. Do we put her on a pedistiol indeed no. She is a created sinner just like us all. A person that has found grace just like all believers in christ.

 

[Eden]

If you would do a search before posting, you will see that all of your common Protestant arguments have been answered many times here. But I’ll respond anyway:

It is written that we have one mediator between God and man that being the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also it is writen that all have sinned and fallen short that all also includes Mary.

Not quite. Look at Romans 3:23 again. Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary’s case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says “many (not all) were made sinners.” Paul uses “polloi,” not “pantes.” Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

www.scripturecatholic.com

Mary is not once refered to in the bible as mary the Mother of God this is a latter added by the catholic church.

Many Fundamentalists are horrified when they hear the Virgin Mary called the Mother of God, but they are unaware of what this doctrine means and what their own Protestant forebears said about it.

Mary isn’t the Mother of God in the sense that she is older than God or the source of the Son’s divinity, for she is neither. But in other senses she merits the title.

If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this syllogism, whose form logicians have recognized as valid since before Christ.

To avoid its conclusion, some Fundamentalists assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only Christ’s human nature. This reinvents a fifth-century heresy known as Nestorianism. Mothers do not carry merely human natures in their wombs: They carry persons, which is why abortion is a form of homicide. (Only persons have a right to life; natures do not.) Women do not give birth to human natures, but to persons.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified Person of Jesus Christ splits Christ’s human nature from his divine nature. It imagines two separate persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is a Christological heresy of the highest caliber, as the Protestant Reformers recognized. Martin Luther and John Calvin both taught Mary’s divine maternity.

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9706frs.asp

God from the beginning said you shall not worship any other God.

Catholics don’t worship Mary. Please do a topic search as this has been covered in hundreds of threads.

So in praying to mary which is a from of worship you sin against God.

Asking Mary to pray for us is not worshipping.

Mary did not die on a cross.

Who said she did?

Nor is she any different then any other created person with the execption of being allowed to carry Christ Jesus as a child and to be his earthly mother for a short time.

Ho, hum. Such a small, minor, insignificant sort of exception, isn’t it?

 

[Eden]

Yeat even Christ in a manner denounced her at the cross and on one other occasion.

Wrong! Please reread the passages with the following study guide:

Misunderstandings about Jesus “rebuking” Mary

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - when Jesus asks, “Who are my mother, and sisters and brothers?,” some Protestants argue that Jesus is rebuking Mary in order to denigrate her. To the contrary, when Jesus’ comments are read in light of Luke 8:5-15 and the parable of the sower which Jesus taught right before His question, Jesus is actually implying that Mary has already received the word as the sower of good ground and is bearing fruit. Jesus is teaching that others must, like Mary, also receive the word and obey it.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - Jesus’ question about “who are my mother, and sisters and brothers” was also made in reference to Psalm 69:8-9. Jesus the Prophet was answering the psalmist’s prophecy that those closest to Him would betray Him at His passion. Jesus is emphasizing the spiritual family’s importance over the biological family, and the importance of being faithful to Him. While many were unfaithful to Jesus, Mary remained faithful to Him, even to the point of standing at the foot of the Cross.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - finally, to argue that Jesus rebuked Mary is to argue that Jesus violated the Torah, here, the 4th commandment. This argument is blasphemous because it essentially says that God committed sin by dishonoring His Mother.

Luke 11:28 - when Jesus says, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it,” some Protestants also call this a rebuke of Mary. Again, to the contrary, Jesus is exalting Mary by emphasizing her obedience to God’s word as being more critical than her biological role of mother. This affirms Luke 1:48.

Luke 11:28 - also, the Greek word for “rather” is “menounge.” Menounge really means “Yes, but in addition,” or “Further.” Thus, Jesus is saying, yes my mother is blessed indeed, but further blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Jesus is encouraging others to follow Mary’s example in order to build up His kingdom.

Luke 11:27-28 - finally, Jesus is the one being complimented, not Mary. Therefore, Jesus is refocusing the attention from Him to others who obey the word of God. If He is refocusing the attention away from Him to others, His comment cannot be a rebuke of Mary His mother.

John 2:4 - this is another example that Protestants use to diminish Mary’s significance. Jesus’ question to Mary, “what have you to do with me?” does no such thing. To the contrary, Jesus’ question illustrates the importance of Mary’s role in the kingdom. Jesus’ question is in reality an invitation to His mother to intercede on behalf of all believers and begin His ministry, and His Mother understands this. Mary thus immediately intercedes, Jesus obeys her, and performs the miracle which commenced His ministry of redemption.

Luke 8:28 - the demons tell Jesus the same thing, “what have you to do with us.” The demons are not rebuking Jesus, for God would not allow it. Instead, the demons are acknowledging the power of Jesus by their question to Him.

John 2:4; 19:26 - when Jesus uses the title “woman” (gnyai), it is a title of dignity and respect. It is the equivalent of Lady or Madam. Jesus honored His Mother as God requires us to do.

www.scripturecatholic.com