Questioning Mary

[Eden]

Do we honor mary? yes.

Yes. So do we. How do you in your particular Protestant denomination honor Mary?

Do we pray to mary? NO

Please research the Biblical references to intercessory prayer:

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).

She can’t answer she is in a state of sleep.

What proof do you have of this? Can you please find archeological evidence of her tomb? Where is she buried? We know where all of the Apostles were buried. So, why not Mary?

Do we put her on a pedistiol indeed no.

So, you would put your wife on a pedestal, but not the Mother of God? Interesting.

A person that has found grace just like all believers in christ.

She is the first person to be saved by Christ. It just so happens that happened at her conception, before Christ even entered her womb. By His sanctifying grace, she remained immaculate throughout her earthly life.

 

[Joseph_Smith]

Eden send me a very interesting email so i will address her worship of mary. Romans 3:23 states for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus being the son of this wonderful creature that he created named Mary. Would not allow her to die and not be in his kingdom. Mary was and is a born again believer and to be born again means you have to meet the requirement of being a repentant sinner. Did you get that unless Mary is a sinner she is not in the kingdom of Jesus. How is that for truth. So either mary is a sinner or she is not in the Kingdom of God and Christ. No were in any book or scripture of the bible is Mary held out as being sinneless. In the book of revelation Mary is not even mentioned. The bible declares God has neither mother or father and that should be enoof evidence to convince anyone that Mary had to be a sinner, can’t be the mother of God period and is not to be worshipped in any form. As the bible states we have one mediator between God and man that being the person of Jesus. One can only conclud that we have one mediator. Not one plus Mary. Mary is dead as far as we are concerned. She is a dead born again christians just like all other christians, her body waits for redemption and her spirit is already in heaven with God. But she nor any person can hear your prayers. Jesus is the only one that can hear you prayers in heaven. He alone earned that right. Mary is not a co-creator. Mary is not the mother of GOD. Jesus is God in the flesh. but God existed in three states. Mary did not concieve God in three states she was a serogate of the Flesh of God. So she is a vessel only and is on no way the mother of God. This mother of God teaching is even denounced by some of the popes.
The new age femist teaching of this day trys to declare Mary as more then she is. Mary had sex, she had children and she was a sinner and was born again. So she is just another sinner saved by grace. When you pray to mary you in fact sin. First you are disrespectful to Christ and the price of him becomeing your mediator. Second you are disobident to the word of GOD. You shall have no other God before me. If you are praying to it you have made it a God. Third you are promoting human worship in praying to mary. Jesus was ask to teach the people how to pray he said" our father who arnt in heaven hollow be they name". He did not say “Mary mother of God.” In praying the rosery you say hail Mary this is a sin as well. No were in any scripture does it say that God will honor a prayer to a dead christian. He does say he will not hold them blameless who do such.

 

[Eden]

Eden send me a very interesting email so i will address her worship of mary.

I never sent you an e-mail. I only post publicly with posters who are so deeply in error about the Catholic faith so that it will be out there for everyone to benefit.

Romans 3:23 states for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus being the son of this wonderful creature that he created named Mary. Would not allow her to die and not be in his kingdom. Mary was and is a born again believer and to be born again means you have to meet the requirement of being a repentant sinner. Did you get that unless Mary is a sinner she is not in the kingdom of Jesus.

Your first mistake is to misunderstand John 3:5, where Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Being born of water and the spirit refers to baptism. Read up on what the earliest Christians understood “born again” to mean and you will see that they refer to baptism:

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0404frs.asp

How is that for truth. So either mary is a sinner or she is not in the Kingdom of God and Christ.

Not quite. Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin. Her soul remained immaculate throughout her life.

No were in any book or scripture of the bible is Mary held out as being sinneless.

Can you give me the passages in the Bible in which it specifically states that Mary was a sinner. (HINT: It’s not in there.)

In the book of revelation Mary is not even mentioned.

Actually, she is. Mary is the woman in Revelation.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the “woman,” is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

 

[Eden]

can’t be the mother of God period and is not to be worshipped in any form.

If you deny Mary’s title as Mother of God, then you deny that Christ is God. Do you deny Christ is God?

As the bible states we have one mediator between God and man that being the person of Jesus. One can only conclud that we have one mediator. Not one plus Mary.

Look at these verses in the Bible. Then you will see that God both desires and responds to subordinate mediation:

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God.
Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

There are too many passages about intercessory prayer in the Bible to list in one post. Please have a look here at many more:

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[Eden]

Mary is dead as far as we are concerned. She is a dead born again christians just like all other christians, her body waits for redemption and her spirit is already in heaven with God.

Those who are alive in Christ and with him in Heaven are more alive than you or I! They are not dead at all.

But she nor any person can hear your prayers. Jesus is the only one that can hear you prayers in heaven. He alone earned that right. Mary is not a co-creator.

You are incorrect that the saints in heaven, including Mary cannot hear us. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp

 

[LilyM]

Where to start, JS! Where were the new-age radical feminists in the ***400s ***when the doctrine of ‘Mother of God’ was made formal dogma, and the feast of the Dormition (Assumption) of Mary was already widely-celebrated and written about?

Where were they in the 1850s when the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was formalised? Clearly there is much more to such things than some radical feminist agenda.

Now on to Mary herself. Mary is indeed in heaven. So are Enoch and Elijah. Are you daring to say that either of these two Old Testament Patriarchs sinned when GOD HIMSELF openly came to them and took them to himself, since he loved them so for their righteousness and sinlessness? How could he honour the Mother of his Son any less? His own commandment, which Jesus followed perfectly, is to honour thy father and mother. Are you saying he didn’t follow all the commandments perfectly? If he didn’t then he sinned.

On to Mary and Joseph - you cite your beliefs that she consummated her marriage with Joseph and had additional children as if this proves her sinfulness, when of course it does no such thing. And we don’t believe it does either.

What I can say is that Mary was chosen to be the vessel of God’s incarnation. Jesus was indeed God incarnate. This can’t help but leave its mark. Read the OT - every place on this earth where God is recorded as interacting humans was immediately consecrated as holy ground - the temple, the area around the burning bush, Bethel…

and as for the Ark of his own presence - it was so holy that no-one could touch it without dying! People DID die for touching it. Mary is no less than the Ark of the Covenant - she bore within her the word of God and his own presence, as the Ark bore the tablets of his law.

How would anyone dare to touch someone so consecrated and set apart for God as Mary was?

As for having other children - again it would be like desecrating holy ground or defiling the Ark of the Covenant. Not because humans are naturally evil and defiled, simply because we are so below both Jesus and Mary in the scheme of things.

 

[Eden]

She was more than a vessel. Jesus received his human body from her. If Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, then there is no way around it. Mary is “the Mother of God”. To state otherwise is to deny that Christ was fully human and fully God. Your claim that Jesus had separate natures is flat out wrong. Even the early “reformers” Calvin and Luther acknowledged that Mary is the Mother of God.

catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9409hotm.asp

The Mother of God teaching is even denounced by some Popes

Who? Which Popes? References please.

The new age femist teaching of this day trys to declare Mary as more then she was.

Look at the quotes of these new age feminist early Christians on Mary:

Irenaeus

“The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God” (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. **180]).

Alexander of Alexandria

“We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God” (Encyclical Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D.**324]).

Ephraim

“Though still a virgin she carried a Child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God” (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. **338-373]).

Athanasius

“The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God” (On the Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. **365]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The Archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness (Cat-echetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D.**350]).

Gregory of Nazianz

“If anyone does not agree that Holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead. If anyone asserts that Christ passed through the Virgin as through a channel and was not shaped in her both divinely and humanly, divinely because without man and humanly because in accord with the law of gestation, he is likewise godless” (Epistle to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. **382]).

Epiphanius

“For this is the Holy Savior who came down from heaven, who deigned to fashion for our salvation in a virginal workshop . . . who did not change his nature when he took on humanity along with his divinity . . . who took on human flesh and soul. Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit” (*The Man Well-Anchored *75 [A.D. **374]).

Theodore of Mopsuestia

“When, therefore, they ask, Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation. Mother of man because it was a man who was in the womb of Mary and who came forth from there, and the Mother of God because God was in the man who was born, not in him in a circumscribable way according to nature, but existing in him by intention of will” (*On the Incarnation *15 [A.D. **390]).

Jerome

“Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God” (*Commentaries on Isaiah *3:7:15 [A.D. **408-410]).

John Cassian

“Now, you heretic, you say, whoever you are who deny that God was born of the Virgin, that Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, cannot be called Theotokos, that is, the Mother of God, but Christotokos, that is, the Mother only of Christ [the man] and not of God. For no one, you say, gives birth to one older than herself. And of this utterly stupid argument, wherein you suppose that the birth of God [at the Incarnation] can be understood by a carnal intellect and believe that the mystery of his majesty can be resolved by human reasoning, we will, if God permits, offer a refutation later on. In the meantime, however, let us prove by divine testimonies both that Christ is God and that Mary is the Mother of God” (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D.**429]).

Cyril of Alexandria

“I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the Holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the Holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?” (*Epistle to the Monks of Egypt *1 [A.D. **423-431]).

Cyril of Alexandria

“In accord with this understanding of the unconfused union [of Christ’s divine and human natures] we confess that the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God” (Epistle to John, Bishop of Antioch 39 [A.D. **433]).

 

[Eden]

Mary had sex, she had children and she was a sinner

Truly, your words are from the devil.

and was born again.

Where in the Bible is Mary baptised or “born again” in your definition?

When you pray to mary you in fact sin. First you are disrespectful to Christ and the price of him becomeing your mediator. Second you are disobident to the word of GOD. You shall have no other God before me. If you are praying to it you have made it a God.

Again, subordinate mediation in the Bible is clearly pleasing to God:

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

Please actually read the webpage before responding with the same statements over and over as though they have never been addressed.

Jesus was ask to teach the people how to pray he said" our father who arnt in heaven hollow be they name".
He did not say “Mary mother of God.”

This is a bad example. Mary was not in heaven when he prayed “Our Father”. She was on earth even longer than Jesus was.

In praying the rosery you say hail Mary this is a sin as well.

That is straight from Scripture. “Hail Mary” is in your Bible and is the Word of God spoken as a message from God as uttered by the Angel Gabriel! Look it up. It’s even in your Protestant Bible:

Luke 1:28 - “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

You think uttering the very words of God is a sin? And look! The Scriptures call her “full of grace” before Christ was in her womb. What is “full of grace” if not completely free from sin?

 

[Eden]

No were in any scripture does it say that God will honor a prayer to a dead christian.

Nowhere except here Rev. 5:8 and here Rev. 8:3–4.

Not only do the saints in heaven pray with us, they pray for us.

By the way, I find it odd that you repeatedly refer to those who are purified and in the presence of Jesus Christ and God the Father are “dead Christians”. Who could be more alive?

 

[LilyM]

By the way, I find it odd that you repeatedly refer to those who are purified and in the presence of Jesus Christ and God the Father are “dead Christians”. Who could be more alive?

Me too - after all, did Christ say to the thief on the cross ‘this day you will be with me in Paradise’ or ‘oh you’ll be dead in body and unable to DO anything (which is as good as dead) in spirit, but after a few thousand years or so you’ll be fine.’

 

[Joseph_Smith]

Born of water and spirit does not mean in literal water as in baptised in a pond of water.

Jesus spoke to the woman at the well and said if you had ask me i would ahve given you living water. The spirit of Christ is the redeeming water being poured out onto the whole earth for salvation. This is refering to the well spring of Christ spirit. The word spirit here from the greek is refering to the Holy Spirit.
This we are born into the kingdom of God by being made new creatures in Christ Jesus spirit and the Holy Spirit which are the two annointed of God that stand before him for all times. You are confusing physical things with spiritual events.

If you will study the 4 gosples you will find the actual words spoke are water, spirit and fire. The fire is the anointing of God. We are sealed with the spirit of Christ by the Holy Spirit, then we recieve the holy spirit when we come to obidence. then we recieve the anointing for service. Thus we relive Christ life in the flesh.

Christ had his spirit from birth, he recieved the holy spirit and the anointing came from service.
We recieve his spirit at birth ( being born again)
We recieve the holy spirit when we are being called into service
and we are anointed with the power of God for service.
And this is the baptism we who are called christians are baptized into.
In effect we are reliving the life death burrial and resurrection of Christ.

The reason the early church also had water baptism was because anyone being baptized in water also had a death sentence on them by the enemies of the way. Thus real converts were tested by this method. Because any who would not be baptized were know to be undercover agents of the state or the jewish councel.

Also Rev 12:1 does not refer to mary. This is the nation of Israel as atested by the 12 stars. Israel is Father Gods bride for all time and The church is Christ bride. In verse 5 we see christ going back to heaven. In verse 6 we see Israel going to petra. So in no ways could this be mary. Because this is a overview of events. Woman clothed with the Glory of God. His beloved. You may want to read some of Gods love scriptures for Israel his bride. Another clue is that she has the moon under her feet. The nation of Israel went into slavery in egypt were they worshiped the moon GOD yeat she did not defile her self with the moon God whos name is Allah.

 

[Joseph_Smith]

Revelation 5:8 and revelation 8:3 are the prayers of the saints for all known time. Why will people in heaven be praying. They are not able to hear you as you have only one mediator Jesus and he is not relaying your prayers he is correcting your prayers and presenting them to the Father. People in heaven are in a state of bless. There effect on the world stopped the day they fell into sleep. In the bible King saul Had a witch Call up the prophet from his rest and the prophet said why have you woken me from my rest. The same is so for all the dead they rest and have stopped there labors.
Enoch and Elijah are the only tow people they went to heaven with out dieing and are the two witness in revelation how do we know that. Because it is writen it is appointed to man to die once. For God not to be a lier they have to return and die. And we know God i not a lier. But Mary is not returning until we all come back she is a christian.

 

[squeekster]

She is. She is coming from a Southern Baptist background so she still even talks about being “saved” and things.

You say that like it’s a bad thing or something.

 

[Stephen_C]

You say that like it’s a bad thing or something.

Squeekster,
Meaning no disrespect, it could be a bad thing. I was Southern Baptist. If you are “saved” in context of OSAS…then it is a bad thing. satin just loves OSAS. Myself, I will continue to work out my salvation.

 

[squeekster]

Squeekster,
Meaning no disrespect, it could be a bad thing. I was Southern Baptist. If you are “saved” in context of OSAS…then it is a bad thing. satin just loves OSAS. Myself, I will continue to work out my salvation.

Well sorry, but I don’t view salvation in ANY way, shape or form to be a bad thing. And I was baptised in a Southern Baptist church.

As for the OSAS argument, we will have to agree to disagree because I don’t believe that anyone, if they truly have Christ in their heart, can lose their salvation. Christ knows who are His. And I have no idea how anyone that has Christ in their heart can kick Him out. That is all I will say about that because I am VERY firm in my beliefs and if I get into arguing about it, I will say something that will be taken wrong by the powers that be here. I don’t choose to “get in trouble” again.

 

[Stephen_C]

Well sorry, but I don’t view salvation in ANY way, shape or form to be a bad thing. And I was baptised in a Southern Baptist church.

As for the OSAS argument, we will have to agree to disagree because I don’t believe that anyone, if they truly have Christ in their heart, can lose their salvation. Christ knows who are His. And I have no idea how anyone that has Christ in their heart can kick Him out. That is all I will say about that because I am VERY firm in my beliefs and if I get into arguing about it, I will say something that will be taken wrong by the powers that be here. I don’t choose to “get in trouble” again.

Fair enough…that is another thread anyways.

God Bless,
Stephen

 

[rr1213]

You think uttering the very words of God is a sin?

I’d be careful with this argument, knowing as we do that even the devil quoted scripture. Uttering the words of God is not necessarily a sin nor a blessing. It is what is in the heart at the time of the utterance that determines the answer to that question.

 

[rr1213]

She is. She is coming from a Southern Baptist background so she still even talks about being “saved” and things.

Which is why the IC may very well be a big issue for her. The vast majority of Protestants believe that Jesus alone was without sin. To say that Mary also was cleansed of sin at the time of her conception, would be considered to be a heretical teaching in many fundamentalist and evangelical churches. Again, maybe this girl is different from other Protestants, but it does not appear so from the information posted in this thread.

 

[Fidelis]

To answer your question you need look into what the holy scriptures teach on such. It is written that we have one mediator between God and man that being the Lord Jesus Christ. Also it is writen that all have sinned and fallen short that all also includes Mary. Mary is not once refered to in the bible as mary the Mother of God this is a latter added by the catholic church. God from the beginning said you shall not worship any other God. So in praying to mary which is a from of worship you sin against God. Mary did not die on a cross. Nor is she any different then any other created person with the execption of being allowed to carry Christ Jesus as a child and to be his earthly mother for a short time. Yeat even Christ in a manner denounced her at the cross and on one other occasion. Do we honor mary? yes. Do we pray to mary? NO
She can’t answer she is in a state of sleep. Do we put her on a pedistiol indeed no. She is a created sinner just like us all. A person that has found grace just like all believers in christ.

With all due respect…

Blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda, same old same old.

This is all so basic and juvenile and has been refuted so many times, since you have all of 6 posts here, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt of just having fallen off the apple cart on this topic. Please visit the main Catholic Answers page here:
catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
Then come back here at least somewhat able to make an informed comment.

 

[Dominic_Brother]

Hello all!

There is a girl in my RCIA class that is having a big problem with the Catholic church’s view of Mary. We have had the Sisters come and talk about Mary and the Church’s view has come up numerous times but she still has a big problem with it. In her words, she thinks that people pray “to” Mary and that Catholics worship her. I know that this isn’t true. We venerate Mary, not worship her and we ask for her intercession just like we do the saints. How can I convey this to her in a better way for her to understand it??? Thanks for all your help!

I’m not an expert at teaching but here’s my advice.

Most importantly, ALWAYS encourage your classmate to pray to God for truth.

You may want to quote Matthew 7:7 “Ask and you will receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened for you.” Sometimes, the truth comes to you after 20 years of prayer or even longer, but it will only come if you persist in prayer. see 1 Peter 1:7 “so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ”

I think your classmate has to understand first and foremost that Mary is a saint (before teaching her about the immaculate conception) (ie, you can’t feed meat to a baby, got to feed them milk first). See 1 Corinthians 3:2

1. Ask your classmate if she believes that there people on this earth who have lead virtuous lives and are now in heaven; in God’s presence.
2. Ask your classmate if she believes these people care about us.
3. Ask your classmate if she believes they can listen to us.

If she says yes to all 3 questions, you can say that these people are called saints and Mary is just like that, a saint. Saints are our neighbours. If saints are our neighbours, you must love them.

See Matthew 22:37-39 (And He said to him, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”)

It is impossible to love God and not love your neighbour. 1 John 4:20 (If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.)

Hope this helps.