Questioning Mary

[Eden]

I am sure that God saw the day of the mother of God worship increasing so here is a interesting scripture. Mark VI.,3 “is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James and Joseph, and Jude and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” Seems like Mary Was married and having children left and right.

Not so.

Jesus’ “Brothers” (adelphoi)) = Cousins or Kinsmen

Luke 1:36 - Elizabeth is Mary’s kinswoman. Some Bibles translate kinswoman as “cousin,” but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for “cousin.”

Luke 22:32 - Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his “brethren.” In this case, we clearly see Jesus using “brethren” to refer to the other apostles, not his biological brothers.

Acts 1:12-15 - the gathering of Jesus’ “brothers” amounts to about 120. That is a lot of “brothers.” Brother means kinsmen in Hebrew.

Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where “brethren” does not mean blood relations.

Rom. 9:3 - Paul uses “brethren” and “kinsmen” interchangeably. “Brothers” of Jesus does not prove Mary had other children.

Gen. 11:26-28 - Lot is Abraham’s nephew (“anepsios”) / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 - Lot is still called Abraham’s brother (adelphos") . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is “anepsios,” Scripture also uses “adelphos” to describe a cousin.

Gen. 29:15 - Laban calls Jacob is “brother” even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.

Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7 -“brethren” means kinsmen. Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for “cousin.”

2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32 - here we see that “brethren” can even be one who is unrelated (no bloodline), such as a friend.

2 Kings 10:13-14 - King Ahaziah’s 42 “brethren” were really his kinsmen.

1 Chron. 23:21-22 - Eleazar’s daughters married their “brethren” who were really their cousins.

Neh. 4:14; 5:1,5,8,10,14 - these are more examples of “brothers” meaning “cousins” or “kinsmen.”

Tobit 5:11 - Tobit asks Azarias to identify himself and his people, but still calls him “brother.”

Amos 1: 9 - brotherhood can also mean an ally (where there is no bloodline).

 

[LilyM]

Buy the way I am a apostle and a prophet of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am taught by God alone.

Ummm … Let’s see, Peter … James … John … Paul … even Silas and Barnabas and Timothy I could stretch to calling apostles. They were at least of the same generation as Our Lord, so have some claim to the title.

You and me, nope, no claim at all, :nope: and it’s an insult the generations of great saints who have gone before us and taught us to use the term ‘apostle’ or ‘prophet’ for ourselves.

If you read the Bible at all you should be thanking God - and the Catholic Church too - for the saints who wrote it over the course of 50 years or so, and those who at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage in the fourth century patiently weeded dozens and scores of uninspired writings, including the gnostic gospels, out and put the Bible into the form and structure that we know (or misquote) and love today.

As well as those unheralded scholars who have translated it into English and other languages since so that you, me and the whole world can read it. THEY all have taught you - and me. It wasn’t just God’s mouth or the Holy Spirit’s into your ear you know. Or mine.

 

[Eden]

Many in this day are trying to attribute special meaing to a very simple gosple. The Gosple is good news that God has send a redeemer in the form of the person of Jesus the Christ. Mary knew that Gods son was with in her. Yeat she never called herself Mother of God. She knew the error of saying so.

She knew the error of saying so? Her cousin Elizabeth referred to her as “the Mother of my Lord God” and she did not correct her:

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth’s use of “Mother of my Lord” (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used “Adonai” which means Lord God) is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God” which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus’ human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Since you make many claims that teachings of the Church are not in the Bible and then you are shown that, in fact, they are, I don’t believe IMHO that you are too familiar with the Bible.

Also, this is a key phrase “full of grace”. How can one be “full of grace” and stained with sin at the same time? She was “full of grace” before Christ was in her womb (Immaculate Conception).

Luke 1:28 - the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[Mannyfit75]

I am sure that God saw the day of the mother of God worship increasing so here is a interesting scripture.

The Catholic Church does not worship Mary, nor does it teaches it. The CC does venerate and honor the saints and Mary, and ask them to “pray for us.”

Mary is not the mother of God period in this since.

Mary is the Mother of God. Jesus is divine in nature and also man. He is the 2nd person of the Trinity.

Mary is a blessed woman among woman. But she is not there mother. Eve is the mother of all living. Reference Genesis 3:20 Mary is not Eve.

Mary is not Eve. Eve disobedience to God lead the fall of Man. Mary by accepting God into her heart by becoming the Mother of Our Lord, she brought forth the redeemer our Messiah into the world. The ECF understand Mary much more than we do, and they acknowledge that she is the Mother of God.

They also believed that she remain a virgin. She did not have any children. There is no Aramaic word or Hebrew word for cousin. So the Gospel writters use brother or sister for cousins. In Luke’s Gospel when Jesus was 12, Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to the Temple in Jersusalem. There were no mention of his brothers or sister at all.

In the Gospel of John 19:26-27 it says, When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, Woman, behold your son!" Then he said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

According to Jewish custom, when a family member dies, the one left to take care of an elderly or widower is a family member. Jesus would be making scandal by allow someone to care for his mother who is not of his family. Jesus gave Mary to his beloved discipline, whom we believe is St. John.

The ECF believed that Mary is the Mother of God.

But the Lord Christ, the fruit of the Virgin, did not pronounce the breasts of women blessed, nor selected them to give nourishment; but when the kind and loving Father had rained down the Word, Himself became spiritual nourishment to the good. O mystic marvel! The universal Father is one, and one the universal Word; and the Holy Spirit is one and the same everywhere, and one is the only virgin mother. I love to call her the Church. This mother, when alone, had not milk, because alone she was not a woman. But she is once virgin and mother–pure as a virgin, loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., with the Word for childhood. Therefore she had not milk; for the milk was this child fair and comely, the body of Christ, which nourishes by the Word the young brood, which the Lord Himself brought forth in throes of the flesh, which the Lord Himself swathed in His precious blood." Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, I:6 (A.D.202).

 

[Eden]

Seems like Mary Was married and having children left and right.

Firstly, those “brothers” were not her biological children. They were either her much-older husband Joseph’s children from a previous marriage or simply cousins (as Aramaic makes no distinction between brother and cousin).

Secondly, you stated previously that you honor Mary. Is that the way a decent man honors the Mother of our Lord? By saying she was “having children left and right”? No decent man would use such poorly thought-out words to describe his own mother, let alone the Mother of our Lord! And in another post you stated that “Mary had sex, had some children and was a sinner”. What decent, Christ-filled man would describe his own mother (for whom the description would be true, but rude), let alone the Mother of Jesus Christ (for whom the description is not only rude, but a lie)?

We in the human race are the produce to mans sin nature that includes Mary.

No. She was full of grace and remained full of grace all her life (kecharitomene).

I’ve seen many Protestants attack our Blessed Mother not only insisting that she must have had sexual relations and that she was also stained by sin but writing comments about her that are beyond un-Christlike to the point of viciousness. How can JS believe he honors Mary when he writes dirty things about her like “Mary had sex”? I’m really starting to believe that a main objection to the purity of the Blessed Virgin by Protestants is that because God chose her among all women they feel less special. How sad it is to see people who claim to be Christian denigrate the Mother of our Lord because of their envy and pride.

 

[mark_a]

as a Baptist she’s likely to have a conniption fit when she realizes that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was without sin.

and that’s putting it mildly

So…the question is what do you do? Do you address the subject upfront now and allow her to consider and be comfortable with the answers you supply…or do you wait until she converts to Catholicism and then has a crisis of conscience? Personally I’d be candid with her and address the issue now…but then, as you noted, I have another agenda.

Gotta agree here. After hearing many well known converts to Catholicism say that Mary was the the toughest hurdle for them, it’s best that she gets these shockers as they are presented.

One of the best ways to present Catholic teaching about Mary is remember that it more teaches us more about God than it does about Mary.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Firstly, those “brothers” were not her biological children. They were either her much-older husband Joseph’s children from a previous marriage or simply cousins (as Aramaic makes no distinction between brother and cousin).

Secondly, you stated previously that you honor Mary. Is that the way a decent man honors the Mother of our Lord? By saying she was “having children left and right”? No decent man would use such poorly thought-out words to describe his own mother, let alone the Mother of our Lord! And in another post you stated that “Mary had sex, had some children and was a sinner”. What decent, Christ-filled man would describe his own mother (for whom the description would be true, but rude), let alone the Mother of Jesus Christ (for whom the description is not only rude, but a lie)?

No. She was full of grace and remained full of grace all her life (kecharitomene).

I’ve seen many Protestants attack our Blessed Mother not only insisting that she must have had sexual relations and that she was also stained by sin but writing comments about her that are beyond un-Christlike to the point of viciousness. How can JS believe he honors Mary when he writes dirty things about her like “Mary had sex”? I’m really starting to believe that a main objection to the purity of the Blessed Virgin by Protestants is that because God chose her among all women they feel less special. How sad it is to see people who claim to be Christian denigrate the Mother of our Lord because of their envy and pride.

I think they dishonor Mary and have no respect for her by denigrate the Mother of Our Lord. What kind of honor is it when a Protestant dishonor the Mother of Jesus, who can be rightly called the Mother of God?

 

[Fidelis]

Ahh…ok. Thanks.

Soooo… do you still not think JS is juvenile and ignorant?

 

[seek]

So many of you have so much to offer. Many of these
arguments for Mary opened my eyes a great deal in my coming back
home to The Catholic Church. I would offer our Mr Smith a few other thoughts: Let’s for a moment focus not on what any of us may think,
Christian or Non-Christian, lost or found. saved or not. Let’s try to
imagine what Mary wanted or what Mary thought or desired. Did she
dedicate herself to the Temple as a servant–there seems to be a tradition
that points that way. Outside of that, for me at least, what has to
be recognized and accepted is that Mary said
** YES**

 

[Joseph_Smith]

So have you read the one about the prophet who was old and bald and 42 youth mocked him and two bears came out of the woods and killed the youth.
So is the life of the prophets and the apostles. So some one said i better be careful saying i am a prophet or a apostle that all the apostles and prophets came from the catholic church. The apostles came before the catholic church and the prophets have been on the earth from the beginning.
I sure am glad to clear that up. Could you tell me of the rod of the prophet? Could you tell me of the cross of the apostle? What length is the robes of the 24 elders? What color are they? Do the robes have a hood or a shash? How many bricks are in the tower of God? Are there windows in the tower? Who is with in the tower? Were is the tower located? When speaking to a storm which end to you speak too? And when going to heaven do you enter from the north south east or west? Is God right handed or left handed? On which hand of God is your name writen? And were is the tree of life located?
How many are the number of the great cloud? When mixing faith with the word what are the proportions of each? And in the measure of a man due you count his foolishness along with his wisdom? How is it that God created light on two different days in genesis and you know not which light he speak of? If you hear many words yeat you do hear not, are you blind or deaf?
Which is greater the gold or the temple that holds the Gold? Which is mighter the mountian or the water that cuts the mountian? Which is holy the artical of his use or the rejected silver? How many are the number of his army?
Wisdom are claimed by the educated and they seek her all there days only to find this is wisdom, to fear the Lord and to seek his favor? Knowedge is a blessing to the wise and a snare to the fool? For by knowedge the wise are humble knowing they are fools and by knowedge men are driven mad!
Which is naked the man with no cloths or the man with no faith? How many horns are stitched into the breat plate of satan? How many hoves are on his feet? What color are the spirits of God. Are his names with out meaning? If christ Kingdom is with out end how do you say that it will end after the rapture when all go to heaven? On which level of hell will you find a lier or a thief? When you can answer these things then i will be concerned with your warning.
Jesus said amoung those born of woman not one is greater then John the baptist, yeat he is least in the Kingdom of heaven. Jesus must not have been included in that because he is God in the flesh and bron of woman of did he exist before woman. Or was she just a vessel of clay formed on the potters wheel?

 

[LilyM]

So have you read the one about the prophet who was old and bald and 42 youth mocked him and two bears came out of the woods and killed the youth.

You expect God to send bears to come and kill all of us because you falsely perceive us as mocking you now? I’m not mocking, I’m simply pointing out that bandying about the word ‘prophet’ is a dangerous and prideful business.

So some one said i better be careful saying i am a prophet or a apostle that all the apostles and prophets came from the catholic church. The apostles came before the catholic church and the prophets have been on the earth from the beginning.

Take a second look at my post bud. I never in my life said all prophets were Catholic. But the Catholic Church, and many unnamed and unheralded scholars who weren’t Catholic as well, of course, DID give you the Bible you read. So you’d better be careful about calling the Church apostate or sinful or anything else.

I sure am glad to clear that up. Could you tell me of the rod of the prophet? Could you tell me of the cross of the apostle? What length is the robes of the 24 elders? What color are they? Do the robes have a hood or a shash? How many bricks are in the tower of God? Are there windows in the tower? Who is with in the tower? Were is the tower located? When speaking to a storm which end to you speak too? And when going to heaven do you enter from the north south east or west? Is God right handed or left handed? On which hand of God is your name writen? And were is the tree of life located?
How many are the number of the great cloud? When mixing faith with the word what are the proportions of each? And in the measure of a man due you count his foolishness along with his wisdom? How is it that God created light on two different days in genesis and you know not which light he speak of? If you hear many words yeat you do hear not, are you blind or deaf?
Which is greater the gold or the temple that holds the Gold? Which is mighter the mountian or the water that cuts the mountian? Which is holy the artical of his use or the rejected silver? How many are the number of his army?

Wisdom are claimed by the educated and they seek her all there days only to find this is wisdom, to fear the Lord and to seek his favor? Knowedge is a blessing to the wise and a snare to the fool? For by knowedge the wise are humble knowing they are fools and by knowedge men are driven mad!
Which is naked the man with no cloths or the man with no faith? How many horns are stitched into the breat plate of satan? How many hoves are on his feet? What color are the spirits of God. Are his names with out meaning? If christ Kingdom is with out end how do you say that it will end after the rapture when all go to heaven? On which level of hell will you find a lier or a thief? When you can answer these things then i will be concerned with your warning.

So you think you can answer all these things? Excellent. So, I’m sure, did the false prophet also called Joseph Smith who founded the Mormon Church. There are many who have claimed to know such answers who would nonetheless violently disagree with you about some of them. So of course they’re ALL false and YOUR message alone is true.

Your statement certainly demonstrates no true prophethood and proves nothing.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Jesus said amoung those born of woman not one is greater then John the baptist, yeat he is least in the Kingdom of heaven. Jesus must not have been included in that because he is God in the flesh and bron of woman of did he exist before woman. Or was she just a vessel of clay formed on the potters wheel?

Do you say that John the Baptist is greater than Jesus as well? Or that Mary, whom gave birth to Jesus is lesser than John?

Jesus called John great because he is a great Prophet, the who will make way for the Lord. You should also note that the baby John the Baptist leap in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary came by to visit Elisabeth.

Indeed John the Baptist is great just as Jesus said he is because he made way the path of the Lord. However, I think Mary is far greater because she gave birth to Jesus Christ, the savior of the World.

John didn’t gave birth to Jesus, Mary did. Who then is truly great?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Soooo… do you still not think JS is juvenile and ignorant?

Charity folks charity. JS maybe Anti-Catholic but we are here to defend the truth.

 

[LilyM]

Charity folks charity. JS maybe Anti-Catholic but we are here to defend the truth.

JS is more than anti-Catholic. He is claiming to be a prophet and apostle - ie to be receiving private messages from the almighty. And he’s communicated some of them (naturally the ones condemnatory of the Catholic Church) and threatened God’s wrath on me.

He’s already broken forum rules which prohibit such attempts to claim divine inspiration and relay private revelation. We need defend nothing against someone who is unprepared to abide by the rules he agreed to upon signing up here.

JS, I don’t claim to be a prophet, but I do predict that you’ll be disciplined or banned soon if you keep breaking rules like this.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

So have you read the one about the prophet who was old and bald and 42 youth mocked him and two bears came out of the woods and killed the youth.
So is the life of the prophets and the apostles. So some one said i better be careful saying i am a prophet or a apostle that all the apostles and prophets came from the catholic church. The apostles came before the catholic church and the prophets have been on the earth from the beginning.
I sure am glad to clear that up. Could you tell me of the rod of the prophet? Could you tell me of the cross of the apostle? What length is the robes of the 24 elders? What color are they? Do the robes have a hood or a shash? How many bricks are in the tower of God? Are there windows in the tower? Who is with in the tower? Were is the tower located? When speaking to a storm which end to you speak too? And when going to heaven do you enter from the north south east or west? Is God right handed or left handed? On which hand of God is your name writen? And were is the tree of life located?
How many are the number of the great cloud? When mixing faith with the word what are the proportions of each? And in the measure of a man due you count his foolishness along with his wisdom? How is it that God created light on two different days in genesis and you know not which light he speak of? If you hear many words yeat you do hear not, are you blind or deaf?
Which is greater the gold or the temple that holds the Gold? Which is mighter the mountian or the water that cuts the mountian? Which is holy the artical of his use or the rejected silver? How many are the number of his army?
Wisdom are claimed by the educated and they seek her all there days only to find this is wisdom, to fear the Lord and to seek his favor? Knowedge is a blessing to the wise and a snare to the fool? For by knowedge the wise are humble knowing they are fools and by knowedge men are driven mad!
Which is naked the man with no cloths or the man with no faith? How many horns are stitched into the breat plate of satan? How many hoves are on his feet? What color are the spirits of God. Are his names with out meaning? If christ Kingdom is with out end how do you say that it will end after the rapture when all go to heaven? On which level of hell will you find a lier or a thief? When you can answer these things then i will be concerned with your warning.

Jesus said amoung those born of woman not one is greater then John the baptist, yeat he is least in the Kingdom of heaven. Jesus must not have been included in that because he is God in the flesh and bron of woman of did he exist before woman. Or was she just a vessel of clay formed on the potters wheel?

Wow, this post is disturbing. I have not yet seen a rant so wholly unrelated to a thread in all my time here (and I’ve seen some pretty wild rants). I suggest you post your questions in the non-catholic forum. I’m sure the folks there will provide some answers for you.

Please stay on topic.

 

[Joseph_Smith]

I must admit I did once strick a judge down who was wicked and doing great harm to the children of God. But I have not threated to strick you down. You are not worthy to be a reproach to me.
You might want to study the meaning of the story of the old prophet and the two bears and the 42 youth. There is more to that story then you have seen.
Like the time that Jesus took two fish and 5 bread loaves and blessed them and feed the multitude and then took up 12 baskets. This is a living parable preformed by Christ but i am sure the church is teaching on it. The 5 loaves of bread are the 5 books of the torah, the 2 fish are the spirits of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, The 12 baskets are the 12 apostles and that with-in the baskets is the church. Which will be taken up.
Christ like the prophet also gave us physicial prophsey. Like Jeremiah, Issas and all the other prophets.
I noticed you have not answered any of the question i ask you could it be that you do not the living God. The God of Aberham, Issac and Jocob has not changed.

 

[rr1213]

You neglected to respond to the specific Bible passage to which I was referring which is “Hail Mary, full of grace” and the fact that I stated that by its fruits I am quite sure that by uttering these words from God while praying the Rosary, one is not sinning.

I agree that sincerely and devoutly saying the Hail Mary while praying the Rosary is not likely to be conducive to sin.

 

[rr1213]

How can JS believe he honors Mary when he writes dirty things about her like “Mary had sex”? I’m really starting to believe that a main objection to the purity of the Blessed Virgin by Protestants is that because God chose her among all women they feel less special. How sad it is to see people who claim to be Christian denigrate the Mother of our Lord because of their envy and pride.

Let me say right from the start, less I be misunderstood, that I do not agree with most of JS’ statements, especially where he claims to be an Apostle (they are all dead and in heaven, JS) and a prophet. Or the ramblings that resemble God’s rejoinder to Job. Or the threats, etc.

However, as to Mary, based on Scripture, most Protestants do believe that Jesus had siblings who were also the children of Mary and Joseph. Again, based on Scripture, Protestants also believe that Mary, like the rest of us, was a sinner. One of the greatest of the saints, yes, but still a sinner. The way that JS has described these beliefs borders on the vulgar, especially when said among devout Catholics. Still, I’d say that most Protestants (including myself) agree in substance. I understand the Catholic position on these matters, but do not personally find it to be persuasive.

Also, you are wrong that Protestants’ hangup about Mary is based in envy and pride. The Protestant approach to Mary --which is basically to ignore Mary except for Christmas time --is a reaction to the approach taken by Catholics. Catholics, in general, are very devoted to Mary. In the eyes of Protestants, this devotion becomes extreme and takes away from a proper devotion to Christ. Catholics have a different viewpoint, believing that devotion to Mary perfects their devotion to Christ. My hunch is that the appropriate approach lies somewhere between the Protestant and Catholic positions, but probably a bit closer to the Catholic than the Protestant.

 

[whosebob]

So…the question is what do you do? Do you address the subject upfront now and allow her to consider and be comfortable with the answers you supply…or do you wait until she converts to Catholicism and then has a crisis of conscience?

JMJ + OBT​

Dear rr1213, have you ever considered cultivating (or attempting to do so, at least) a personal relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary or with another canonized saint?

By the grace of God and the working of the Holy Spirit in the Communion of Saints (and saints) – the Mystical Body of Christ – I (and many other Catholics) enjoy a personal relationship with the Mother of God that serves to strengthen my personal relationship with Jesus. I didn’t always have this relationship with Mary, and likewise I wasn’t as close to Jesus in my interior life as Mary has helped me to be. I thank God for making it possible for me to have this relationship with this woman He chose to be His mother.

I don’t have such a relationship with the other canonized Saints, though I have cultivated strong relationships with a few of them – of course this is by way of prayer and, again, the working of the Holy Spirit in the Body of Christ, of which I and they are living members.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[rr1213]

JMJ + OBT​

Dear rr1213, have you ever considered cultivating (or attempting to do so, at least) a personal relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary or with another canonized saint?

By the grace of God and the working of the Holy Spirit in the Communion of Saints (and saints) – the Mystical Body of Christ – I (and many other Catholics) enjoy a personal relationship with the Mother of God that serves to strengthen my personal relationship with Jesus. I didn’t always have this relationship with Mary, and likewise I wasn’t as close to Jesus in my interior life as Mary has helped me to be. I thank God for making it possible for me to have this relationship with this woman He chose to be His mother.

I don’t have such a relationship with the other canonized Saints, though I have cultivated strong relationships with a few of them – of course this is by way of prayer and, again, the working of the Holy Spirit in the Body of Christ, of which I and they are living members.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

To be honest? No. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, but I haven’t considered “cultivating a personal relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary or with another canonized saint.” I would see value in learning about the great saints, Mary included, because they are good Christian role models. However, rightfully or wrongfully, I don’t think I would feel comfortable with cultivating a relationship with Mary or other deceased saints. I also wouldn’t feel right praying to Mary, even with the understanding that this is simply intercessory prayer.