Questioning St. John Bosco

[USMC_Convert]

So I’m reading a book called “Forty Dreams of St. John Bosco” and it has the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur of The Church however I came across something that didn’t make sense to me.

So St. Bosco is going through a dream and then he is explaining it and in the dream boys were presenting gifts to Our Lady some of which were accepted, some rejected and some had to be cleaned up, and near the end this is what he says: “Many bouquets contained rotten or scentless flowers, symbols of good works done in the state of mortal sin-and therefore unmeritorious”

So then the question becomes, if I am in a state of mortal sin, and my good deeds count for nothing then why should I do any good deeds while I am in a state of mortal sin? Why not just wait till next week after confession and being in a state of grace to do good deeds?

To me this doesn’t sounds right, like God only accepts acts we do while in a state of grace but if I commit a mortal sin, even if I’m sorry for it, nothing I do matters until I get back into a state of grace? Yet, this is coming from a Saint and a mystic, so what do ya’ll think?

 

[dmar198]

St. Bosco [says that] in [his] dream boys were presenting gifts to Our Lady some of which were accepted, some rejected and some had to be cleaned up, and near the end this is what he says: “Many bouquets contained rotten or scentless flowers, symbols of good works done in the state of mortal sin-and therefore unmeritorious”

So then the question becomes, if I am in a state of mortal sin, and my good deeds count for nothing then why should I do any good deeds while I am in a state of mortal sin?

He did not say those good deeds counted for nothing, he said they were unmeritorious. He is talking about merit de condigno here, condign merit by which God endows our good works with His power so that they have a real claim on His rewards. We cannot merit rewards in this way when we are in mortal sin, and in this sense all good works done in a state of mortal sin are unmeritorious. But they are not useless. They can still dispose us to receive sanctifying grace, so that we can be saved again, and moreover, good works done in a state of mortal sin can merit God’s rewards de congruo, which is Latin for “congruously.” EWTN explains the difference between condign merit and congruous merit here. A relevant portion is this:Merit de congruo (or congruous merit)…can be gained even if we’re not in a state of grace. This claim to a reward is not based on what we really deserve, but on the graciousness and liberality of the Giver. As it applies to prayer, God may hear it or He may not. He’s under no real obligation to hear it, since a person in mortal sin is technically His enemy, having sided with the devil in whatever choice(s) landed him in sin. But often God does hear the prayers of sinners. In those cases, the impulse or motivation to pray was probably itself a grace from God (i.e., an “actual” grace, which may be given us even when we have lost sanctifying grace.) And where it is in response to a grace from God, prayer has some claim to be heard. It merits de congruo. Other good works done in a state of sin may also be in response to graces from God, and so merit in the same sense. source Therefore, if you are in mortal sin, keep doing good works. They can help dispose you to receive grace and so be saved. (I have also heard that the graces we Would have earned can be retroactively granted to us once we repent and go to confession, so there’s also that. But I don’t have a source for that at the moment.)

I hope that helps. Please let me know.

 

[GEddie]

(have also heard that the graces we Would have earned can be retroactively granted to us once we repent and go to confession, so there’s also that. But I don’t have a source for that at the moment.)

I’d like to see your source, as I have read just the opposite.

ICXC NIKA

 

[USMC_Convert]

He did not say those good deeds counted for nothing, he said they were unmeritorious. He is talking about merit de condigno here, condign merit by which God endows our good works with His power so that they have a real claim on His rewards. We cannot merit rewards in this way when we are in mortal sin, and in this sense all good works done in a state of mortal sin are unmeritorious. But they are not useless. They can still dispose us to receive sanctifying grace, so that we can be saved again, and moreover, good works done in a state of mortal sin can merit God’s rewards de congruo, which is Latin for “congruously.” EWTN explains the difference between condign merit and congruous merit here. A relevant portion is this:Merit de congruo (or congruous merit)…can be gained even if we’re not in a state of grace. This claim to a reward is not based on what we really deserve, but on the graciousness and liberality of the Giver. As it applies to prayer, God may hear it or He may not. He’s under no real obligation to hear it, since a person in mortal sin is technically His enemy, having sided with the devil in whatever choice(s) landed him in sin. But often God does hear the prayers of sinners. In those cases, the impulse or motivation to pray was probably itself a grace from God (i.e., an “actual” grace, which may be given us even when we have lost sanctifying grace.) And where it is in response to a grace from God, prayer has some claim to be heard. It merits de congruo. Other good works done in a state of sin may also be in response to graces from God, and so merit in the same sense. source Therefore, if you are in mortal sin, keep doing good works. They can help dispose you to receive grace and so be saved. (I have also heard that the graces we Would have earned can be retroactively granted to us once we repent and go to confession, so there’s also that. But I don’t have a source for that at the moment.)

I hope that helps. Please let me know.

Sweet! Love the post, I tend to side with God’s Divine Mercy more than thinking of Divine Justice so this makes a lot of sense to me, that He would give us as much as possible even though we don’t deserve it. Thanks!!!

 

[St_Francis]

I’d like to see your source, as I have read just the opposite.

ICXC NIKA

What I have heard is that there are two theories, neither of which has been shown to be true, so different people think different things.

 

[TK421]

So I’m reading a book called “Forty Dreams of St. John Bosco” and it has the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur of The Church however I came across something that didn’t make sense to me.

So St. Bosco is going through a dream and then he is explaining it and in the dream boys were presenting gifts to Our Lady some of which were accepted, some rejected and some had to be cleaned up, and near the end this is what he says: “Many bouquets contained rotten or scentless flowers, symbols of good works done in the state of mortal sin-and therefore unmeritorious”

So then the question becomes, if I am in a state of mortal sin, and my good deeds count for nothing then why should I do any good deeds while I am in a state of mortal sin? Why not just wait till next week after confession and being in a state of grace to do good deeds?

An act of perfect contrition (with the intent to Confess ASAP to be absolved by the Church) immediately reconciles a person with God. There is no waiting period in receiving God’s mercy. It is in fact anticipated before the contrition is even made, or the thought of contrition enters a person’s mind, since the Holy Spirit moves a person towards that decision. Forgiveness & absolution are similar but not the same, since absolution deals with being formally reconciled with the Church on Earth and opens a person to communion.

At the risk of being too simple: let’s just accept what I think most people would agree on. If you’re carrying around grave sin and are unapologetic about it, then that double-mindedness and hypocrisy is going to nullify your good works, because ultimately the only reason our good works are of any value is the charity we have in doing them. It’s like cheating on your spouse while at work and then giving her a bouquet of flowers in the evening.

God doesn’t depend on us to do anything in the absolute sense, whether it is corporal or spiritual. He could eliminate disease, poverty, ignorance, or the universe at will. Only charity makes good works valuable.

If what I said hasn’t been helpful, feel free to disregard it and look for answers to your question elsewhere.

 

[porthos11]

I’d like to see your source, as I have read just the opposite.

ICXC NIKA

The opposite (from your perspective) is the correct one, i.e. merit “backordered” when in mortal sin. There is no such thing, with a few exceptions.

It IS Catholic teaching that any merits due to good works done in the state of grace, but consequently lost through mortal sin, revive upon reconciliation, i.e. they are returned to us.

But, there is no merit “on hold” for good works done in a state of mortal sin. Catholic teaching is that good works performed in the state of mortal sin merit nothing, or more precisely, merit nothing “de condigno”, i.e. out of justice and does not gain anything salutary.

The only exceptions are sacramental graces due to valid but unworthy reception of non-repeatable or relatively non-repeatable sacraments of the living. Examples include Confirmation, Holy Orders and Matrimony. When validly received in a state of mortal sin, it constitutes sacrilege, and the sacramental grace is not granted but it is accepted that for such sacraments, it would be granted after absolution. More easily accessible sacraments, such as the Eucharist would not, as it can be very easily received again.

And that said, God can and does reward good works done even in mortal sin, but this is merit “de congruo”, i.e. not due to justice but solely out of God’s own generosity and goodness. It cannot be sanctifying grace as that cannot be earned, but usually is in the form of actual grace that prompts the sinner to repentance and absolution.

 

[Techno2000]

So I’m reading a book called “Forty Dreams of St. John Bosco” and it has the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur of The Church however I came across something that didn’t make sense to me.

So St. Bosco is going through a dream and then he is explaining it and in the dream boys were presenting gifts to Our Lady some of which were accepted, some rejected and some had to be cleaned up, and near the end this is what he says: “Many bouquets contained rotten or scentless flowers, symbols of good works done in the state of mortal sin-and therefore unmeritorious”

So then the question becomes, if I am in a state of mortal sin, and my good deeds count for nothing then why should I do any good deeds while I am in a state of mortal sin? Why not just wait till next week after confession and being in a state of grace to do good deeds?

To me this doesn’t sounds right, like God only accepts acts we do while in a state of grace but if I commit a mortal sin, even if I’m sorry for it, nothing I do matters until I get back into a state of grace? Yet, this is coming from a Saint and a mystic, so what do ya’ll think?

Sr. Josefa Menendez (1890-1923) -Jesus’ Message to the World of His Mercy for All

“I would like these [those living with sin] to understand that it is not the fact of being in sin that ought to keep them from Me. They must never think that there is no remedy for them, nor that they have forfeited for ever the love that once was theirs… No, poor souls, the God who has shed all His Blood for you has no such feelings for you!”

“It is My intention also, to show souls that I never refuse grace, even to those who are guilty of grave sin; nor do I separate them from the good souls whom I love with predilection. I keep them all in My Heart, that all may receive the help needed for their state of soul.” -Jesus to Sr. Josefa Menendez

mysticsofthechurch.com/2009/12/sister-josefa-menendez-way-of-divine.html