Questioning wealth of Catholic Church and attitudes

[catholictiger]

I disagree with the idea he is misusing his wealth. The items he purchased had to be made by others through their work, which has dignity. What happens to them if he did the same as the other? We would be rewarding inactivity end up with a lot more poor people.

there is economic output by the person who does that but do you really think spending money is better then sending it to the poor

we are called to sacrifice and part of that sacrifice is ginning to the poor, wether in money or time or whatever.

I would think donating 500 dollars to st vincent de paul would have a more positive impact on society then buying a 500 dollar plasma TV.

 

[catholictiger]

The best option is to let people decide what to do with their own money, govt confiscates enough wealth by means of coveting anothers wealth.

This country needs jobs not food stamps, your envy of another puts people in unemployment lines.

what I think is best is to live simply, only buy what you need, only what is necessary, and use your excess time money to give and help the poor.

I agree we need to focus on creating Jobs, but we can’t look to create jobs and completely forget about the individual. If you know much about hans von balthasar there is a then ions between the individual and community that needs to be meet. We can’t focus so much on the community that we forget about the individual and visa versa. I think assisting the poor monetarily and rolling up our sleeves is important. But there is another importance in making sure the community stays in tact and healthy

 

[CatholicPraises]

there is economic output by the person who does that but do you really think spending money is better then sending it to the poor

we are called to sacrifice and part of that sacrifice is ginning to the poor, wether in money or time or whatever.

I would think donating 500 dollars to st vincent de paul would have a more positive impact on society then buying a 500 dollar plasma TV.

The more wealth we have in society the more we can give to the poor. The poor in America is defined as cars, TV, air conditioning , unlimited food stamps,

If this nation becomes more in poverty as Obama is doing, the poor suffer more not less.

 

[CatholicPraises]

what I think is best is to live simply, only buy what you need, only what is necessary, and use your excess time money to give and help the poor.

I agree we need to focus on creating Jobs, but we can’t look to create jobs and completely forget about the individual. If you know much about hans von balthasar there is a then ions between the individual and community that needs to be meet. We can’t focus so much on the community that we forget about the individual and visa versa. I think assisting the poor monetarily and rolling up our sleeves is important. But there is another importance in making sure the community stays in tact and healthy

What scripture are you reading? Are you even Catholic.

Jobs helps individuals. Food stamps is misery.

 

[sedonaman]

there is economic output by the person who does that but do you really think spending money is better then sending it to the poor

This is a false dichotomy. They are not the only choices, and you fail to see them. You have a computer and internet access, two unnecessary luxuries. If you really believed what you are saying, you would sell your computer and discontinue your internet service. You would donate the money to the poor. Likewise with the rest of your income above bare subsistence.

…I would think donating 500 dollars to st vincent de paul would have a more positive impact on society then buying a 500 dollar plasma TV.

Just so happens I am a Vincentian. Would you buy a bus ticket for a woman to travel to a city 500 miles away just so she could be near her boyfriend who is in jail? And don’t come back with that, “When I was in prison, you came to see me.” There are jails here in the local area.

 

[tbcrawford]

Thankyou for all your responses especially my friend Chris!

I appreciate and repsect all your different views. I am however saddened at rudeness by certain posters and not only is it unnecessary it gives a poor impression of catholics.Many non catholics visit CAF I would like to think they get a good impression of loving caring Christian Catholics.

There is no need to say “are you even catholic?What scriptures are you reading” etc.
If people cannot be polite I would rather they did not post at all.

Some of the posts here have highlighted my grave concern and others have eidified it.

If Jesus were to walk the earth now I wonder what He would say about some of these attitudes? I can only imagine.

We each have our own moral code of life.We preceive things differently from one another. For any of us to assume we are right and our brother is wrong then we need to seek humility

I am left feeling as I have been for some considerable time by some of the posters here.Sad

God bless

 

[catholictiger]

I don’t want to take away from this good topic made by a faithful Catholic, I want to address his concerns on Church spending on all levels I don’t want politics to take over this. So I’m going to create a new thread please address all social justice issues not on this issue in there.

God Bless.

 

[catholictiger]

all other issues regarding my analogy and latest discussion check the thread bellow

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=626345

 

[catholictiger]

Thankyou for all your responses especially my friend Chris!

I appreciate and repsect all your different views. I am however saddened at rudeness by certain posters and not only is it unnecessary it gives a poor impression of catholics.Many non catholics visit CAF I would like to think they get a good impression of loving caring Christian Catholics.

There is no need to say “are you even catholic?What scriptures are you reading” etc.
If people cannot be polite I would rather they did not post at all.

Some of the posts here have highlighted my grave concern and others have eidified it.

If Jesus were to walk the earth now I wonder what He would say about some of these attitudes? I can only imagine.

We each have our own moral code of life.We preceive things differently from one another. For any of us to assume we are right and our brother is wrong then we need to seek humility

I am left feeling as I have been for some considerable time by some of the posters here.Sad

God bless

to try and get this back on topic what would you consider bad use of money in the church, or what are some examples (excluding specifics) of misuse of money in the church?

 

[tbcrawford]

to try and get this back on topic what would you consider bad use of money in the church, or what are some examples (excluding specifics) of misuse of money in the church?

God bless you catholictiger and thankyou for starting another thread that can go into political realms!! I also agreed with much of your posts.

It is not so much misuse of money per se that concerns me, as I feel sure each individual parish use their limited funds appropriately and even each Diocese. It is the global organisation of Catholic Church funds that is ammassed as considerable wealth that concerns me and that fact that people consider this of importance to amass wealth.Is this what Jesus would want?What is the ongoing amass of wealth for?Should we not be using any spare monies after running costs have been paid to ensure we do ALL we can to help our fellow brothers and sisters who are in need?It also gives a poor and at times hypocritical imprssion to our brothers and sisters who are not catholic.

Jesus warned many times of the rich
Mark 10 25
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Proverbs 11:28" Whoever trusts in his riches will fall, but the righteous will thrive like a green leaf"
Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other you cannot serve God and wealth.

So many wonderful organsiations within the catholic church do so much good in the world.I once belonged to The Legion of Mary and each week we would visit the sick and housebound read scriptures and pray together.We would do practical things to help also such as bring some shopping etc. My father was an active member of St Vincent De Paul Society and helped raise money and visited the poorer families in the parish and helped them.

For myself I try to live my faith.My husband and I are by no means wealthy.In fact we are quite the opposite.We are rich in being blessed by the Lord to have the means and ability to help others where and how we can.We are inspired to do all we can for others in need.

Many wonderful catholics have dedicated their lives to helping others particularly the needy one great example is Blessed Teresa of Calcutta.There are many saints and religious who have lived a life of poverty such as St Francis of Assisi…what a great role model.

I am concerned the catholic church is not promoting this as much as it should.I was pleased to read Pope Benedict call for a redistribution of wealth in the world.

The church appears to the outside world to be hypocritical where it has great wealth and a portion of the planets population is starving to death!

Is this the church Jesus would be happy with? I just wonder I really do at times

 

[tbcrawford]

what I think is best is to live simply, only buy what you need, only what is necessary, and use your excess time money to give and help the poor.

I agree we need to focus on creating Jobs, but we can’t look to create jobs and completely forget about the individual. If you know much about hans von balthasar there is a then ions between the individual and community that needs to be meet. We can’t focus so much on the community that we forget about the individual and visa versa. I think assisting the poor monetarily and rolling up our sleeves is important. But there is another importance in making sure the community stays in tact and healthy

 

[markomalley]

From Huffpost Religion Today huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/16/pope-benedict-wealth-distribution_n_1154798.html?ref=fb&src

[Pope Benedict Peace Message Calls For Wealth Redistribution

VATICAN CITY (RNS) Noting a “rising sense of frustration” at the worldwide economic recession, Pope Benedict XVI said that a more just and peaceful world requires “adequate mechanisms for the redistribution of wealth.”

Rule #1: Do not trust the main stream media to report the words of the Holy Father accurately. Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever trust them. Yes, I mean NEVER.

To quote Archbishop Chaput:

We make a very serious mistake if we rely on media like the New York Times, Newsweek, CNN, or MSNBC for reliable news about religion. These news media simply don’t provide trustworthy information about religious faith—and sometimes they can’t provide it, either because of limited resources or because of their own editorial prejudices. These are secular operations focused on making a profit. They have very little sympathy for the Catholic faith, and quite a lot of aggressive skepticism toward any religious community that claims to preach and teach God’s truth.

Yes, RNS is NOT a Catholic media source. They are NOT faithful to the Magisterium, nor have any reason to even consider the the idea of faithfulness to Catholic teaching. Take a look at the bios for their editorial team and you will get a clue as to their particular biases.

Why do I mention this? Well, let us take a look at the Holy Father’s actual words. Here is his 2012 World Day of Peace message. It is entitled, EDUCATING YOUNG PEOPLE IN JUSTICE AND PEACE. It is logical to assume that this is the overall theme of his message.

He uses the word “redistribution” exactly one time in this message:
Educating in peace

1. “Peace is not merely the absence of war, and it is not limited to maintaining a balance of powers between adversaries. Peace cannot be attained on earth without safeguarding the goods of persons, free communication among men, respect for the dignity of persons and peoples, and the assiduous practice of fraternity.”8 We Christians believe that Christ is our true peace: in him, by his Cross, God has reconciled the world to himself and has broken down the walls of division that separated us from one another (cf. Eph 2:14-18); in him, there is but one family, reconciled in love.

Peace, however, is not merely a gift to be received: it is also a task to be undertaken. In order to be true peacemakers, we must educate ourselves in compassion, solidarity, working together, fraternity, in being active within the community and concerned to raise awareness about national and international issues and the importance of seeking adequate mechanisms for the redistribution of wealth, the promotion of growth, cooperation for development and conflict resolution. “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God”, as Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 5:9).

Peace for all is the fruit of justice for all, and no one can shirk this essential task of promoting justice, according to one’s particular areas of competence and responsibility. To the young, who have such a strong attachment to ideals, I extend a particular invitation to be patient and persevering in seeking justice and peace, in cultivating the taste for what is just and true, even when it involves sacrifice and swimming against the tide.You should read the rest of the Holy Father’s message. It is inspirational. Hardly a lament. Hardly a whine.

But not if you hear about it from the Mainstream Media.

But, if you, like Archbishop Chaput suggests, get your news about the Church from Catholic sources, you read:

Vatican Radio: Youth can offer new hope to the world
Catholic News Agency: Young people give Pope hope for 2012
National Catholic Register: Benedict’s World Day of Peace Message: Young People Give Pope Hope for 2012
Vatican Information Service: EDUCATING YOUNG PEOPLE IN JUSTICE AND PEACE

I gave you a link to the actual text of the message. Read it, and compare the tone of the actual message to the tone of the coverage from HuffPo/RNS with the coverage from Catholic Media.
[/quote]

 

[markomalley]

Onto the discussion of the OP…

First off, how much actual wealth does the Catholic Church have?

First of all, we have to consider what we mean by “the Catholic Church”… the finances of each diocese in the Church are separate. There may well be some dioceses that are wealthy and some that are not so wealthy (after the billions that have been extracted as a result of clergy sex abuse lawsuits, I would imagine that the not so wealthy are getting to the point of outnumbering the wealthy)

As far as the Holy See, though:

In money, as in liquid assets, not all that much. You can see this report on the 2009 audit conducted by the Council of Cardinals for the Study of Organizational and Economic Matters of the Holy See This includes net earnings from the Institute for Works of Religion (a/k/a the Vatican Bank)…provided for the purposes of the Church’s corporal works of mercy.

In property, there is a huge amount. But what are you going to do with it? Should St Peter’s square be sold off so that an office building can be built? Should they divide up the Sistene Chapel into condos?

Well…not so fast, they cannot be sold (official “World Heritage sites” – difficult to unload, even at a sale price)

But let’s take a look at another example. Let us say the Archdiocese of New York wanted to sell off St Patrick’s Cathedral so they could give the money to the poor.

They might make $100 million from the sale. Then some developer could turn it into office buildings, condos, shops, or maybe tear it down and erect a skyscraper in its place. St Patrick’s would never be the same. And would it solve poverty in New York City? Hardly.

And what about the memory of all of those people who sacrificed so they could donate to help build that Cathedral? Doesn’t that dishonor their efforts?

Consider, as a real example, Los Angeles. They used to have a lovely Cathedral, St Vibiana’s. Well, it was sold off after the current monstrosity was built. It’s now called “Vibianas” and is used as an “event” locale.



I’m sure all of those people who sacrificed to build that fine Cathedral are happy to see how it is now being used.

Now I agree that I don’t care for the way that many try to raise money. But the typical alternative offered is to sell it all off. And, in the case of the Church, I question that even more.

 

[Speedypizza]

I think the one thing that needs to be thought about that is not here, is not just the “wealth” of the Church, but how much below what others in equal positions get.

Let us start with priests. A priest has as a rule a masters, about 7-8 years of school plus on the job training to get him up to speed. A few more years of schooling and this priest could have been a medical doctor making about $250,000 a year. Instead a priest makes about $25,000 a year (not counting benefits and of course this amount changes from place to place) Now even if he was a Protestant minister, he could expect to be making at least $35,000 a year and there are MANY who make well over $100,000 a year. At my old Baptist church we went to when I was about 12, the minister was making $60,000 a year, and that was 20 years ago!

Let us look at the Pope now for a moment. Surly he lives like a king, and has far more then most others. He lives in a nice 10 room “Papal quarters” in Rome. Nice, yes, overly fancy, hardly. In fact when I was delivering pizza, I could show you MANY homes that were far nicer and more luxurious then what the Pope has. These were just homes of moderately successful people. I am not even talking about some of the mansions I have delivered to. Let us look at what the president of the USA has next to him. The president has multiple kitchens and his own on site bakery! The Pope has one moderately large kitchen. The president has Air Force One, a 747 with a kitchen in it, computer rooms, an office and a bedroom! When the Pope travels he rents an airplane. Many rich actors, models, singers and of course CEO’s all own or have use of a large private jet! So as we can see, the Pope has far less then anybody else in his position. The only area where he does spend a lot of money is on his clothing, however seeing as how he is the spiritual leader of 1.2 BILLION people, and a leader of a country, he does need to look the part.

As far as the art, the things that most people are talking about when they think of the “riches” of the Church. Many of these things were given to the Church or had money donated for them, or people would work together to buy the parts to make them. Let us think about some of the icons of Our Lady that are decked in gold and valuable stones. Those stones were given by the rich for being used on those icons. Does the Church even have a moral right to sell it or was this given to Mary as an act of love? In fact what nobody seems to think about is that much of the “riches” of the Church in fact COST the Church a small fortune every year in just upkeep. Do you have any idea the amount of money the Church has to spend in order to just keep the Sistine Chapel looking nice?
Does the Church make any money off of this? I am sure they wish they did. Also think about the fact that even if the Church put everything up for sale tomorrow, who would buy it? Just in the Vatican alone we could bankrupt most of the global elite and still have tons of stuff left for sale. They are called PRICELESS works of art for a reason, they are beyond price.

In closing, we have far less then many think we do. We are in fact a very poor origination that has over 2000 years ended up with a LOT of stuff that we keep for the value of all humans, not just a few who could afford them.

Pax

 

[catholictiger]

I think the one thing that needs to be thought about that is not here, is not just the “wealth” of the Church, but how much below what others in equal positions get.

Let us start with priests. A priest has as a rule a masters, about 7-8 years of school plus on the job training to get him up to speed. A few more years of schooling and this priest could have been a medical doctor making about $250,000 a year. Instead a priest makes about $25,000 a year (not counting benefits and of course this amount changes from place to place) Now even if he was a Protestant minister, he could expect to be making at least $35,000 a year and there are MANY who make well over $100,000 a year. At my old Baptist church we went to when I was about 12, the minister was making $60,000 a year, and that was 20 years ago!

Let us look at the Pope now for a moment. Surly he lives like a king, and has far more then most others. He lives in a nice 10 room “Papal quarters” in Rome. Nice, yes, overly fancy, hardly. In fact when I was delivering pizza, I could show you MANY homes that were far nicer and more luxurious then what the Pope has. These were just homes of moderately successful people. I am not even talking about some of the mansions I have delivered to. Let us look at what the president of the USA has next to him. The president has multiple kitchens and his own on site bakery! The Pope has one moderately large kitchen. The president has Air Force One, a 747 with a kitchen in it, computer rooms, an office and a bedroom! When the Pope travels he rents an airplane. Many rich actors, models, singers and of course CEO’s all own or have use of a large private jet! So as we can see, the Pope has far less then anybody else in his position. The only area where he does spend a lot of money is on his clothing, however seeing as how he is the spiritual leader of 1.2 BILLION people, and a leader of a country, he does need to look the part.

As far as the art, the things that most people are talking about when they think of the “riches” of the Church. Many of these things were given to the Church or had money donated for them, or people would work together to buy the parts to make them. Let us think about some of the icons of Our Lady that are decked in gold and valuable stones. Those stones were given by the rich for being used on those icons. Does the Church even have a moral right to sell it or was this given to Mary as an act of love? In fact what nobody seems to think about is that much of the “riches” of the Church in fact COST the Church a small fortune every year in just upkeep. Do you have any idea the amount of money the Church has to spend in order to just keep the Sistine Chapel looking nice?
Does the Church make any money off of this? I am sure they wish they did. Also think about the fact that even if the Church put everything up for sale tomorrow, who would buy it? Just in the Vatican alone we could bankrupt most of the global elite and still have tons of stuff left for sale. They are called PRICELESS works of art for a reason, they are beyond price.

In closing, we have far less then many think we do. We are in fact a very poor origination that has over 2000 years ended up with a LOT of stuff that we keep for the value of all humans, not just a few who could afford them.

Pax

nice post

again I think we need to put an importance on the idea of simplicity.

you can still buy amazing works of art, make improvements to your church, and so on and so forth, and still live simply.

 

[catholictiger]

there is a reason priests take a promise of simplicity

 

[charliedrake]

nice post

again I think we need to put an importance on the idea of simplicity.

you can still buy amazing works of art, make improvements to your church, and so on and so forth, and still live simply.

You must be confused with the Amish religion.

Wealth in riches and faith comes from good old fashioned hard work. No more proof then the beautiful Cathedrals.

 

[catholictiger]

You must be confused with the Amish religion.

Wealth in riches and faith comes from good old fashioned hard work. No more proof then the beautiful Cathedrals.

I’m sure the people who built those cathedrals lived simple lives.

Plus you can never excessively give Glory to God, that is why it is ok to build the cathedrals and such, because it brings glory to God, I should say all Glory to God.

 

[charliedrake]

I’m sure the people who built those cathedrals lived simple lives.

Plus you can never excessively give Glory to God, that is why it is ok to build the cathedrals and such, because it brings glory to God, I should say all Glory to God.

LOL , I really doubt the people who built the Cathedrals lived simple lives especially the engineers, architects etc,

You have an obsession with the wealth of your neighbor in a coveting fashion.

 

[CatholicPraises]

I’m sure the people who built those cathedrals lived simple lives.

Plus you can never excessively give Glory to God, that is why it is ok to build the cathedrals and such, because it brings glory to God, I should say all Glory to God.

Wealth built the Cathedrals, you don’t build up the poor by tearing down the rich.

Jobs with economic prosperity benefits all as the poor become the rich.

Amen.