Questions about Eastern Churches

[Qare]

I am moving to a new town next month. There is no Latin Rite Church in the town, the nearest one is about 20 mins away, not such a long distance, but still involves getting on the highway and travelling a bit. However I have a Melkite Catholic and a Carpatho-Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic churches both less than 10 minutes away (there is also a Polish National Catholic Church down the street, but they are not in communion with Rome).

Well, I know it isn’t exactly ideal but can I simply just attend either the Melkite or Ruthenian Churches as a regular without becoming a part of that particular rite. I do have interest in the Byzantine rites and have a background in greek and arabic, but I am content with being a Latin, though out of place.

And if I chose to do this, what should I expect from these Churches, like in terms of the procession of the liturgy and stuff like that. Is it common in the US, in New Jersey that they would use Greek in the divine liturgy or are most in the vernacular. Are they typically reverantly and proper, or should I say experimental. I guess I don’t want to go and like standout that much, so what would be the primer for attending a Byzantine rite Church

 

[ziapueblo]

You can regularly attend any Eastern Catholic Church without becoming a part of a particular rite. As for your other concerns I cannot answer, sorry :imsorry:

Good luck and God bless,
ZP

 

[Cluny]

Well, I know it isn’t exactly ideal but can I simply just attend either the Melkite or Ruthenian Churches as a regular without becoming a part of that particular rite.

You don’t become part of a particular rite.

You are, or become, a member of a sui juris Church. In your case, you are a member of the Latin Church, which is not the only Church in the Catholic Church, which is a communion of some 23 sui juris Churches.

Most Byzantine Tradition Churches use English in this country, with a line or two in Greek and Arabic (for the Melkites), or Slavonic (for the Ruthenians).

And yes, you may attend, received the sacraments, and even join the parish without changing your sui juris affiliation.

 

[Patchunky]

Most Byzantine Tradition Churches use English in this country, with a line or two in Greek and Arabic (for the Melkites), or Slavonic (for the Ruthenians).{/quote]

Although, in New Jersey, there are 1 or 2 parishes that use Slovak instead of OCS or English. They serve a growing number of immigrants from Vychodna living and working in New Jersey…

 

[Cluny]

Although, in New Jersey, there are 1 or 2 parishes that use Slovak instead of OCS or English. They serve a growing number of immigrants from Vychodna living and working in New Jersey

Makes sense.

 

[wjp984]

Your concern is the same as what many Byzantine Catholics face. I go to the Latin Rite Church probably 3 out of every 4 Sundays for convenience since I don’t like getting up early and I don’t like driving 25 miles. When I was in undergrad, the nearest Byzantine Catholic Church was a couple hundred miles away so that meant I only attended a DL when going home to visit family over the breaks and went to my Newman Center’s mass each week during the school year.

 

[Patchunky]

Your concern is the same as what many Byzantine Catholics face. I go to the Latin Rite Church probably 3 out of every 4 Sundays for convenience since I don’t like getting up early and I don’t like driving 25 miles. When I was in undergrad, the nearest Byzantine Catholic Church was a couple hundred miles away so that meant I only attended a DL when going home to visit family over the breaks and went to my Newman Center’s mass each week during the school year.

This is sad…

We have families that drive an hour EACH WAY just to make sure their children attend Divine Liturgy in their own church…

We had 3" inches of snow and were getting sleet this morning and these families showed up so their kids could carry ikons in the procession this morning and make pysanky this afternoon…

 

[JuanCarlos]

This is sad…

We have families that drive an hour EACH WAY just to make sure their children attend Divine Liturgy in their own church…

We had 3" inches of snow and were getting sleet this morning and these families showed up so their kids could carry ikons in the procession this morning and make pysanky this afternoon…

That’s beautiful; but at the same time, there is nothing wrong in attending a Latin Rite Mass if that is what’s closer. The Mass is the Mass no matter the Rite, and each one has Jesus whole and entire in the Eucharist.

 

[Qare]

Now what are somethings I can expect if I attend the Byzantine?

 

[Hesychios]

I think it should be pointed out that *technically *one is expected to follow the calendar of the Sui Iuris church one actually belongs to.

I do believe that in fact, most people in this situation follow the calendar of the church they attend (for fairly obvious reasons). They will always be aware of the upcoming Holy Days in the parish they attend, but may not even have a current calendar from a parish of the Sui Iuris church they are really ascribed to.

It is terribly difficult to follow two calendars at once and makes no sense.

Personally I consider it a small matter, but it may be worthwhile discussing this with one’s spiritual director, and obtain his blessing to go forward following only the calendar of the church one wishes to attend.

As far as the language issue…the general rule seems to be the vernacular. When the BCC Metropolia at Munhall/Pittsburgh went vernacular most of the parishes went to English from Old Slavonic, essentially because the community had been in the USA from three to six (or even seven) generations by that time.

Anyplace that has had a more recent influx of immigrants may be using the "home country’ language as Patchunky mentions above, which is fine.

The Ukrainians, on the other hand, switched from Old Slavonic to Ukrainian in most places around the world, including the USA. Interestingly, many if not most Ukrainian parishes in the USA also have an English liturgy (possible when there is more than one liturgy on a weekend). The sad thing is that, in my area, the English liturgy is almost always recited, not chanted. It is like a “Low Mass”. To me it is awful. Your mileage may vary.

The Melkites and Maronites, if you encounter them, may be using Arabic or English.

 

[wynd]

Now what are somethings I can expect if I attend the Byzantine?

orthodoxchurch.com/12_things/

Note: This is a website for an Orthodox church. Orthodoxy and Byzantine Catholicism share much of the same worship and practices so it is still a good guide.

 

[Hesychios]

…but at the same time, there is nothing wrong in attending a Latin Rite Mass if that is what’s closer. The Mass is the Mass no matter the Rite, and each one has Jesus whole and entire in the Eucharist.

Everyone under the Pope is aware of what you say and no one can dispute you.

On the other hand, the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom/St Basil is elegant, and it is a very spiritually nourishing experience. Most visitors will come away from it benefiting in some real way. Latin Christians can think of it like a pilgrimage.



But the problem is (if I may be blunt) the Byzantine Catholic church in North America is struggling. Within two decades it could be nothing but a memory. This is primarily because, as you have stated here “there is nothing wrong in attending a Latin Rite Mass if that is what’s closer”, and that’s what the people are doing. Often they don’t have a choice, but on the other hand their only concern may be convenience, and that’s a shame.

The population is being absorbed by the Latin Church and there is little to be done about it. Resources are dwindling and parishes are closing or merging. It is hard to find the funds to support mission work and the seminary is missing out on some men who are still technically Byzantines but grow up Latin and choose a Latin rite vocation.

Most other children growing up in the Latin parishes are finding Latin spouses and the chances are good that they will only come back one more time, for Grandma’s funeral, and that will be the end of it.

http://www.holyprotection.org/images/virgin_mary01.jpg

 

[Qare]

I guess I have been reading on it some more, and I have a question about confessions, as I seem to understand it, it takes place during the Mass. Is that accurate? I know that the Eastern Churches has a different practice than the confession booth (not that too many Latin Rite uses them anymore unfortunately)

 

[Hesychios]

I guess I have been reading on it some more, and I have a question about confessions, as I seem to understand it, it takes place during the Mass. Is that accurate?

I know of a Ukrainian parish in Illinois that does that because some people travel so far and they do not have Vespers, but it is not the norm. It is more of a concession to the circumstances and they are not supposed to do that.

I know that the Eastern Churches has a different practice than the confession booth (not that too many Latin Rite uses them anymore unfortunately)

You might be surprised to find that the parishes in your area have adopted a few Latin practices you are familiar with.

Some even have confessional booths. The only way to find out is to visit the priest and ask.

 

[Cluny]

as I seem to understand it, it takes place during the Mass. Is that accurate?

No.

They are heard before Liturgy, or maybe after Vespers.

Sometimes, especially if there is another priest, they may be heard during Matins or the Hours (celebrated before Divine Liturgy).

 

[Qare]

the calendar was mentioned earlier, do the Eastern Catholics use the Gregorian or Julian calendars when it comes to holidays like Christmas. I remember my Orthodox friend talk about celebrating Christmas in January.

 

[malphono]

Everyone under the Pope is aware of what you say and no one can dispute you.

On the other hand, the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom/St Basil is elegant, and it is a very spiritually nourishing experience. Most visitors will come away from it benefiting in some real way. Latin Christians can think of it like a pilgrimage.

But the problem is (if I may be blunt) the Byzantine Catholic church in North America is struggling. Within two decades it could be nothing but a memory. This is primarily because, as you have stated here “there is nothing wrong in attending a Latin Rite Mass if that is what’s closer”, and that’s what the people are doing. Often they don’t have a choice, but on the other hand their only concern may be convenience, and that’s a shame.

The population is being absorbed by the Latin Church and there is little to be done about it. Resources are dwindling and parishes are closing or merging. It is hard to find the funds to support mission work and the seminary is missing out on some men who are still technically Byzantines but grow up Latin and choose a Latin rite vocation.

Most other children growing up in the Latin parishes are finding Latin spouses and the chances are good that they will only come back one more time, for Grandma’s funeral, and that will be the end of it.

That commentary is sad, but unfortunately it’s all too true. And by the way, the same applies to most (at least) of the Orientals in North America.

In their zeal to affirm their “Catholicity,” most Eastern and Oriental CCs seem to lay such stress on “things Catholic” that it dilutes what is ours by right. This is less apparent in liturgy (although it does exist in that realm to greater or lesser degrees, depending on the Particular Church and disposition of the local authority) than it is in discipline and theological matters. There, unfortunately, it is all too clear. (The never-ending discussion of “purgatory” is a good example: a Latin council defined it, and that purging fire awaits. So, too, is the equally never-ending discussion of the filoque: Rome says you don’t have to say the word, but there’s no question about the Latin theology behind it, as defined by a strictly Western council. And there are, as we well know, many others.) What we end up with are watered-down Particular Churches where people say “it’s all “Catholic” so what’'s the difference where I practice?” Who can blame them? It’s what they were taught by that very same Particular Church.

The exodus of our own leads to the problem of numbers. Can’t keep things going without people, so they make appeals (albeit generally covert appeals) to Latins to “come join us” so as to keep the numbers up. Of course, the response is often from those Latins who are disgruntled for one or another reason with their own Church, or those looking for “alternative” forms of spirituality (and I don’t mean the forms of the Christian East).

That influx, in turn, leads to what I’ll call faux churches: they observe the Eastern or Oriental liturgy (almost always with the notable absence of the traditional liturgical language, often with the excuse that the Westerners don’t appreciate it), but are 100% “Catholic” in belief. (Some rival the SSPX.) The words “it’s all “Catholic” so what’s the difference” then come to take on a reverse meaning.

If the Eastern and Oriental Churches are to survive (in the US, but elsewhere as well) our very identity and authentic traditions have to be reinforced rather than watered-down as is so often done.

I have no problem welcoming Westerners who are seeking the East or Orient for its own sake and who are willing to accept who we are and what we are. OTOH, I have major issues with this business of over-accommodation to the Westerners, and under-accommodation to our own. IMHO, this is all misguided and is an experiment gone wrong.

 

[Patchunky]

the calendar was mentioned earlier, do the Eastern Catholics use the Gregorian or Julian calendars when it comes to holidays like Christmas. I remember my Orthodox friend talk about celebrating Christmas in January.

they follow both calendars, depending on where they live…

 

[wjp984]

This thread has now gone off topic but I will contribute to the current discussion. I experienced the tail end of the Latinization of the Ruthenian Church. I was not allowed to receive communion until the 2nd grade. I was told to kneel for the consecration. There were confessionals and stations of the cross. I was taught Western theology for the most part. I can’t blame this all on the church since I went to Roman Catholic school. Anyways, when the Church all of a sudden decided to change its mind and say now you should revert back to the Eastern ways, I realized I was more comfortable with the Latin theology and therefore decided to primarily go to the Latin Rite.

That being said, in the past year I have made an effort to better understand the Eastern theology (it is a lot more confusing to me than the West) I also now understand that both essentially believe the same thing but have a different way of getting to the end point and if JPII was alright with it and wanted us to learn more about and revert back to Eastern ways then it certainly not a bad thing to do. However, though I am an Eastern Catholic, Latin theology will always be my primary background.

It is probably similar to languages. I only speak English but know some Spanish. But when I think of Spanish words I have to first think of the words in English to understand what I am about to say. That is the way I view Eastern theology. I do want to understand both though and the hard part is not confusing them.

 

[wjp984]

To comment on the convenience issue. It is not always our fault. The Byzantine Church just does not cater to the teen and young adult group very well based on my experiences. When Catholic students go to college they probably will join their Newman Centers, meet good friends and go to their Newman Center masses. There might not even be a Divine Liturgy in the area. Even if there is, it is not the social group of people needed for that age. Therefore this only furthers the assimilation of us into the Latin Rite.

The Eastern Rite parishes are very family friendly. I always thought it was a wonderful time going to the DL with my family. I was an alter server and there just is a lot to offer for the younger age group and their families. I still will go with my family to a DL when I am in town since I feel comfortable there.

However, while away I do not feel comfortable at a DL and feel out of place. The people are very nice but I just am much more comfortable with my own age group and with more people who are also at church alone or with friends.

And yes, the I don’t want to get up and drive 25 miles is a poor, though convenient excuse which is why I try to still go once every month or two and occasionally will bring someone from the Latin Rite who is curious what a DL is like. Even so, similarly, they don’t want to get up either as Sunday is a day of rest to catch up on all the lost sleep from the hard work we do in law school.

The 12:30 mass at the Latin Rite Church is therefore more ideal as are the evening masses.