Questions about Eastern Churches

[German_Melkite]

My experiences, admittedly only personal and very limited, and my understanding of American assimilation suggest the real “demise” of the Eastern Churches will be caused by the ethnic emphasis of the parishes. Examination the parish histories of communities that are over, say, sixty years old. In major metropolitan areas where there has been a continuing influx of peoples from the Old World, the parishes continue to survive, because there is always incoming “new blood,” But in the majority of the cities across the US, when the new immigrant flow ends - so does the church.

The second generation, and definitely the third generation removed from the immigrant experiences, does not wish to be identified as “foreign.” The language, traditions, and culture are rejected in favor of the Americanized culture. Yes, there are some hangers on, and yes, at some point a few individuals want to re-claim their cultural roots - but the vast majority of immigrant families will eventually desire to be thoroughly American.

If the Eastern Church parish is an ethnic parish, it will have no future.

Our churches need to offer the Eastern spirituality without the baggage of being Arabic, Ukrainian, Russian, Slavic, or whatever. We have a great treasure that needs to be preserved and shared with all Americans (and the whole world). But instead of focusing on the theology and worship, my experience has been, our communities cling to Old World languages, European crafts, traditional style parties, and ethnic cultural groups. Priests from the “old country” may be holy and dedicated men who have a deep understanding of the history of the ethnic group - but ultimately they will continue the decline of this most precious religious expression.

The future belongs to the American Melkites and American Byzantines, not to the Ukrainian and Arab Christians.

 

[malphono]

…If the Eastern Church parish is an ethnic parish, it will have no future. …

We’re evidently on opposite sides on this issue. I still say the “Americanization” of the Eastern and Oriental Churches is an experiment gone wrong.

The very existence of the Eastern and Oriental Churches is rooted in the East and Orient, and most certainly NOT in the hodgepodge “melting-pot” of the US or elsewhere in the West. Our theology developed in the East and Orient. Our liturgical expression, disciplines, etc, developed in the East and Orient and all have an ethnic an linguistic connection to the so-called “old country.” If those connections are severed, the Churches will die out.

The problem is, perhaps, less visible among the Byzantines than it is among the various Orientals. The Byzantines (in particular the Eastern Europeans) are numerous enough in the so-called “old country” that they will no doubt survive relatively unscathed. If they were able to survive persecution and outright suppression under Soviet Union and its minions, I imagine they can pretty well survive anything. The Orientals (and to an extent the Melkites) are in a different position. They face a different kind of persecution, a sort that the persecutors hope and intend leads to the total annihilation, or at least the total exodus, of the Christians.

The Jews got it first in those same countries. For example, Syria and Iraq once had thriving communities that were thousands of years old. They’re all gone now, dispersed throughout the world. I find it interesting, though, that those folks take great pains to maintain their communal identity even in diaspora. They assimilate to a degree, but at the same time they guard their ethno-religious traditions like the treasure they are.

And now it’s Christians who are in the cross-hairs (and that even includes at least some Antiochian Orthodox). Even Lebanon which, since its political establishment after WWI, was a haven of religious freedom, is threatened. And the exodus continues.

In diaspora, the Oriental Orthodox are far better at maintaining their identity than are the Oriental Catholics, and I attribute that fact to the “we’re all ‘Catholic’ so what’'s the difference where I go” attitude that is so common.

As I see it, what we’re left with is either to (a) reinforce the “ethic connection” or (b) abandon it. If it’s option (a) we might have a chance to survive in diaspora. If it’s option (b) I believe our collective goose is cooked.

The future belongs to the American Melkites and American Byzantines, not to the Ukrainian and Arab Christians.

Based on ethnicity, there is a school of thought that considers the item bolded to be an oxymoron.

 

[German_Melkite]

Respectfully, I would suggest that the theology and even the style of worship certainly developed in a given part of the world - but the theology and style of worship have a universal value and quality which is not limited by a parochial mindset.

The Melkites have a “Byzantine Empire” style of worship with beliefs formulated in a vanished Greek city on the Bosporus, but the people that first accepted these truths were Arabic. It can not be the Arabic that defines us, for that is a transitory ethnic affiliation. And even that is not very accurate. The Melkites really would only a small part of Greater Syria, but the “ethnics” often think of themselves as solely Lebanese. When Melkites started coming to America, they were (at least according to the geopolitical world of the time) immigrants from Turkey. Today’s new immigrants are more likely to be Palestinian than Lebanese or Syrian. And many of these families have lived so long in the Gulf states, that they identify more with “Arab” than with “Palestinian” or “Lebanese.”

I certainly don’t mean to belittle or deny any one their cultural patrimony. Our ethnic heritages are vitally important, but they should not be used to create boundary walls around the spirituality of the Eastern Catholics.

Aside from places where there is “current immigration” from the ancestral countries, ethnic communities fade away and disappear. And this process of acculturation will cause the disappearance of the Eastern Churches - if those Churches are only ethnic cultural clubs. This pattern has already demonstrated itself with the Polish, Italian, and German Roman Catholic parishes. Those that remained tied to an ethnic community, eventually were closed because of lack of support. And this process has and will happen for Byzantine Catholics (regardless of their ethnicity).

The Hafli may have some role in certain Melkite parishes, but in other Melkite parishes there should be Fiestas and in still others “country-club golf outings.” When the community is concentrating on the “external ethnic trappings” rather than the “spiritual universal traditions” the community is doomed.

Again - I do not wish to be confrontational - but I have collected a lot of parish histories and photographs of closed churches - and I am fearful that my Eastern faith will not survive until the generation of my grandchildren.

 

[Cluny]

the calendar was mentioned earlier, do the Eastern Catholics use the Gregorian or Julian calendars when it comes to holidays like Christmas.

Yes.

Some use one, some use the other.

** I remember my Orthodox friend talk about celebrating Christmas in January.**

The Nativity of our Saviour has NEVER been in January. It’s always been on 25 December

What’s in dispute is when 25 December falls.

And the calendar question been called an issue bewildering to Orthodox and non-Orthodox alike.

 

[malphono]

…The Hafli may have some role in certain Melkite parishes, but in other Melkite parishes there should be Fiestas and in still others “country-club golf outings.” When the community is concentrating on the “external ethnic trappings” rather than the “spiritual universal traditions” the community is doomed.

Again - I do not wish to be confrontational - but I have collected a lot of parish histories and photographs of closed churches - and I am fearful that my Eastern faith will not survive until the generation of my grandchildren.

While they do have a place, (and granted, more in some locales in diaspora than in others), in fact I wasn’t speaking of the external ethnic trappings. Whether there’s a hafli (or the Slavic equivalent) or nothing at all is rather tangential. Whether the church bazaar sells sfiha or pierogi or crumb cake (I like first two, not a big fan of the latter) is also rather tangential. But albeit tangential, those things speak volumes for the identity of the group. And albeit that they are tangential, it’s interesting that those are the things that most often survive. For example, I’ve met Maronites and Melkites from the American South who are about as ethnic as a telephone pole, but the one thing they all know are grandma’s recipes.

No, that’s not it. Rather, it’s the important stuff that suffers. I was looking precisely at the liturgical & theological traditions, and that is where I believe the traditional connection must never be totally severed. Those things are bound by and to their origins much more so than sfiha and pierogi. Yes, there is a certain “ethnicity” involved in those ecclesiastical traditions: without that connection, the Particular Churches would not even exist.

The spirituality you speak of was born and raised in the “old country” and is alien to the West. The liturgy was born and raised in the “old country” and is alien to the West. The trend in the US (and probably elsewhere in the diaspora) is to dilute them in one way or another in order to make them “fit in” with the “new country” and that I see as a major problem.

It’s something like coffee, which started off in southern Arabia as a rich, flavorful brew. It spread to southern, eastern, and western Europe, and remained a rich, flavorful brew. Then it spread to the UK where, let’s say, it suffered in translation. And then to North America where it suffered even further. Let’s face it: American coffee is a weak brew (its Canadian cousin even more so) that bears little resemblance to the “real thing” and instead that tastes more like cardboard boiled in dishwater.

Perhaps the coffee analogy seems silly, but I think it works to show what will happen to the Eastern and Oriental Churches the more they “Americanize” themselves.

Now, there has been a lot of interest in espresso and such things in recent years. Why? Because it actually has flavor! Not like the usual insipid American-Canadian brew.

Same as there has been a renewed interest in the traditional (i.e. pre-conciliar) liturgy of the Roman Rite. Why? Because it reflects tradition, and deeper sense of the spiritual than does the Roman Rite OF.

So, at the risk of repeating myself, as I see it, if Eastern and Oriental Churches reinforce the traditional "ethnic connection in the liturgical, spiritual, theological realms, we might have a chance to survive in diaspora. If we do otherwise, we’ll drown in a sea of insipid American coffee.

 

[mlouise007]

And if I chose to do this, what should I expect from these Churches, like in terms of the procession of the liturgy and stuff like that. Is it common in the US, in New Jersey that they would use Greek in the divine liturgy or are most in the vernacular. Are they typically reverantly and proper, or should I say experimental. I guess I don’t want to go and like standout that much, so what would be the primer for attending a Byzantine rite Church

Christ is among us!

In addition to what others have already said, I would suggest you call the deacon and let him know your situation. He will be happy to talk with you about your concerns. The priest may also be available to talk with you in advance, and certainly after Liturgy. (Frequently there is a meal and social time after the Liturgy.)

It is my experience that most often both EC and Orthodox are very glad to welcome visitors, happy to answer questions and share the beauty of their traditions. If the closest Latin Rite church is a distance you probably won’t be the only Latin Rite Catholic going to one of these parishes.

(There are currently a couple other threads about this topic going on here you may want to read.)

FYI if you get EWTN this Fri, 03/06, they will rebroadcast “GREAT LENT” from their old series Light of the East 2:00 PM Eastern, 11 AM Pacific This is part of a wonderful series that used to air on EWTN.

“Father Michael Sopoliga and Fr. Joseph Bertha discuss the beautiful pre-festive and holy season of Lent, the Great Fast. Called the “Great Lent,” because it is the longest fasting, and abstaining period of the entire Liturgical year. It takes extensive preparation and long in duration: 47 days, culminating in the most glorious feast of feasts, the Lord’s Triumphant Resurrection from the Dead.”
ewtn.com/tv/index2.htm

Also EWTN radio, if you get that, carries a program, Light of the East, every Sunday 5:30am Eastern: byzantinecatholic.com/feed.xml You can listen to the archives at that URL.

You’re in for a treat. Wear comfortable shoes

 

[crickett54]

If you are near the Byzantine church in East Brunswick, stop and see us - we would love to have you. Liturgy is every Sunday at 10:45A, Presanctified Liturgy is on Friday at 7P.

 

[wjp984]

I still think the main problem is the Eastern Church does not cater to the teen and youg adult crowd. How are you going to keep members without doing this? I also think the priests should personally contact these young people and try to convince them to keep going or at leat go some of the time and just be more inviting to this age group.

 

[Cluny]

I still think the main problem is the Eastern Church does not cater to the teen and youg adult crowd. How are you going to keep members without doing this? I also think the priests should personally contact these young people and try to convince them to keep going or at leat go some of the time and just be more inviting to this age group.

The Church is open to everyone.

And the Church is not about catering to any age or other special interest group.

It’s about God, not about us.

As one Evangelical woman said after attending Orthodox Vespers, “I didn’t understand the service, but I realized that it was so not about me!”

 

[crickett54]

I still think the main problem is the Eastern Church does not cater to the teen and youg adult crowd. How are you going to keep members without doing this? I also think the priests should personally contact these young people and try to convince them to keep going or at leat go some of the time and just be more inviting to this age group.

The Church is open to everyone.

And the Church is not about catering to any age or other special interest group.

It’s about God, not about us.

As one Evangelical woman said after attending Orthodox Vespers, “I didn’t understand the service, but I realized that it was so not about me!”

I do understand this, but as I look around our church, I am one of the young ones and I am over 50. If we want our church to survive, we do have to evangelize to the community and be appealing to our youth. If we do not have a youth group and activities, our teens will go with their friends to their CYO and activities. We have had so few kids in our parish that we haven’t offered catechism classes in the last two years. We need to evangelize to young couples so that when they have children our church will already be a home to them. In another 20 years, God willing, I will be old, but the elders of our church will be dead. (I mean God willing that I make it that long

 

[malphono]

I do understand this, but as I look around our church, I am one of the young ones and I am over 50. If we want our church to survive, we do have to evangelize to the community and be appealing to our youth. If we do not have a youth group and activities, our teens will go with their friends to their CYO and activities. We have had so few kids in our parish that we haven’t offered catechism classes in the last two years. We need to evangelize to young couples so that when they have children our church will already be a home to them. In another 20 years, God willing, I will be old, but the elders of our church will be dead. (I mean God willing that I make it that long

I doubt it was intentional, but I’d rather the word “catering” hadn’t been used earlier. The implication of that is more to the end of “Life Teen” and other such things that I consider to be absolute drivel (and Latin Rite OF drivel at that), rather than simply church-sponsored activities, catechism, etc.

Anyway, I don’t disagree in principle. But the Church can only do so much. In the absence of a sense of identity, She becomes hamstrung. For Her part, the Church can offer activities, youth groups, etc, but it seems to me that part of the problem in Eastern and Oriental parishes is that parents often don’t instill a sense of identity in their children. If that’s missing, the kids won’t be interested no matter what the parish does: they’d rather be with their friends.