Questions About Fatima

[Hislittlelady]

I’ve been a Catholic since I’m born and when I was much younger I was very devoted to Our Lady and still love her as the Queen of Heaven and our Mother. I do, however, have a problem with the message from Fatima, and wondering if there is anyone that can help me out here with a little enlightenment.

My first problem is that when the children saw their visions of Mary, in one of them, Lucia asked Our lady if her little friend who had died went to heaven. Our lady responded that she was in purgatory. That’s my first problem. I do not believe such a thing that God or His Holy Mother would tell anyone specifically where a soul is. It doesn’t sit well with me. If seen in maybe a dream or a personal vision, but this was directly told to her. I question that.

My next problem is the children claimed to see horrific visions of hell. I also cannot understand that one. Why would our Holy Mother show small children something that terrible? I never thought God would reveal any aspects of heaven or hell to us before we left this earth. Maybe someone could clarify via scripture if this is so. From ones so young it sounds like fabrication, which brings up question as to the validity of Fatima at all, which I have always believed, except since I’ve discovered these points. I’ve read many books on Fatima, and seen movies as well, and they do acknowledge that Mary did these things.

Now please don’t misinterpret my next point, but it also appears to me that by the entire vision experience, it just seemed to glorify Mary too much. I’ve never put this in words or spoken of this, but I honor and Love Mary, our Mother, and I believe she was ever Virgin, a pure vessel of the Lord, but I find it difficult to believe that she would bring that much attention to herself, or so it appears.

I love Jesus so much, so tremendously, that for myself it’s a little difficult to pray to anyone else, but it’s perfectly fine and valid to pray for Our Lady’s intercession. She does bring many graces upon us I do believe that. But I do not recall Mary being as glorified in other visions as she has been in Fatima.

I would appreciate anyone’s insight into all this, and I mean no offense to the dear Mother of Our Lord, but it’s just this one apparition I’ve always wondered about, and for some odd reason, it does not sit well with me. Someone, please help and show me what I’m not understanding.

Thank you and God bless you all
:curtsey:

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I’ve been a Catholic since I’m born and when I was much younger I was very devoted to Our Lady and still love her as the Queen of Heaven and our Mother. I do, however, have a problem with the message from Fatima, and wondering if there is anyone that can help me out here with a little enlightenment.

My first problem is that when the children saw their visions of Mary, in one of them, Lucia asked Our lady if her little friend who had died went to heaven. Our lady responded that she was in purgatory. That’s my first problem. I do not believe such a thing that God or His Holy Mother would tell anyone specifically where a soul is. It doesn’t sit well with me.** If seen in maybe a dream or a personal vision**, but this was directly told to her. I question that.

My next problem is the children claimed to see horrific visions of hell. I also cannot understand that one. Why would our Holy Mother show small children something that terrible? I never thought God would reveal any aspects of heaven or hell to us before we left this earth. Maybe someone could clarify via scripture if this is so. From ones so young it sounds like fabrication, which brings up question as to the validity of Fatima at all, which I have always believed, except since I’ve discovered these points. I’ve read many books on Fatima, and seen movies as well, and they do acknowledge that Mary did these things.

Now please don’t misinterpret my next point, but it also appears to me that by the entire vision experience, it just seemed to glorify Mary too much. I’ve never put this in words or spoken of this, but I honor and Love Mary, our Mother, and I believe she was ever Virgin, a pure vessel of the Lord, but I find it difficult to believe that she would bring that much attention to herself, or so it appears.

I love Jesus so much, so tremendously, that for myself it’s a little difficult to pray to anyone else, but it’s perfectly fine and valid to pray for Our Lady’s intercession. She does bring many graces upon us I do believe that. But I do not recall Mary being as glorified in other visions as she has been in Fatima.

I would appreciate anyone’s insight into all this, and I mean no offense to the dear Mother of Our Lord, but it’s just this one apparition I’ve always wondered about, and for some odd reason, it does not sit well with me. Someone, please help and show me what I’m not understanding.

Thank you and God bless you all
:curtsey:

It was a private Revelation to her. Then don’t accept it, again it is a private revelation, no one is required to accept a private revelation.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

IMO Our Lady came to ask the children to pray for Portugal, and to pray for the souls in Purgatory and for poor sinners, as well as in reparation for sins against the Sacred Heart of Jesus. She asked them to offer sacrifices. Therefore she told them what happened to their companion and showed them hell so they would see the terrible effects of sin. She told Francisco and Jacinta that they would not live long. They died in a flu epidemic not very long after the apparitions. They both offered their sufferings for the poor sinners.

I think Mary shared her concern for us with these children so God could use their sufferings which they accepted to save others and so that they could become saints. Lucia’s suffering was of a different sort. After the death of the others she was very lonely. She became a cloistered nun.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

In my own personal opinion, I find both the revelations that a given child was in purgatory, and that the children had visions of hell, to make the apparition more convincing to me, especially in these particular times.

Why? Because today’s society–and that goes for many if not most young (under 40) Catholics too–has pretty must lost a sense of sin.

We have an entitlement culture that pretty much feels that provided we aren’t doing things on the “Adolf Hitler” level, we **deserve **heaven because we are ‘good enough’.

We cringe at the idea that if a child (over the age of reason as this particular child was) has at a tender age been capable of sin enough to have that child in purgatory, then what might be the fate of many of us adults who certainly have far greater sins on our plate. And a reminder like this usually gives us an uneasy twinge of "gee, maye all those that I was so quick to forgive myself for, to not even bother to confess because they weren’t the ‘big stuff’, maybe I ought to be worried. To confess. To do penance for now."

As in so many other areas, we have been indoctrinated with an argument that goes like this:

“You need to be careful to ‘downplay’ things because you might make people too scrupulous or too fearful, or even cause them to despair–and it would be your fault if you drove them away from GOD.”

The problem with this is that in seeking to ‘protect’ the infinitismal percentage of people who really would be overwhelmed by the idea of their sinfulness (quick, raise your hand if you’ve been guilty of this on a regular basis in the last 40 years, don’t be shy). . .you are downplaying the very real teachings about heaven and hell which the vast 99.9% majority of people really** need**.

It’s one of Satan’s triumphs that he has managed to make so many people convinced that there is no way that they could ever be bad enough to deserve purgatory, let alone hell, while these same people are in fact living lives of greater moral depravity than at most points in history, and in which the depravity is actually presented as a good.

Certainly people have always sinned. They have engaged in sexual sin, they have lied, cheated, stolen and killed. Throughout most periods and especially the Christian era, though, they have always recognized that they DID sin. And so they felt guilt and repented (often publically). They were punished (often harshly). And when caught, they tried to explain why their own particular sin ‘didn’t match’ the criteria for sin in some way.

Now we have gone beyond that. Now, instead of trying to excuse our sinful ways by saying that we ‘had a reason’, or that we weren’t culpable because of circumstances beyond our control, we go even further–and refuse to accept that sin is sin.

Now we don’t have to make ourselves have a ‘good reason’ for doing a sin, or to ‘explain’ ourselves. Nothing is sin anymore, we aren’t ‘responsible’ anymore, we’re all ‘good enough’ now, and if we aren’t, it’s GOD’s fault and HIS responsibility because WE didn’t ask to be born and He is the one who’s unfair. . .not us.

So we need reminders like Fatima, IMO.

God help us.

 

[Hislittlelady]

In my own personal opinion, I find both the revelations that a given child was in purgatory, and that the children had visions of hell, to make the apparition more convincing to me, especially in these particular times.

Why? Because today’s society–and that goes for many if not most young (under 40) Catholics too–has pretty must lost a sense of sin.

Now we don’t have to make ourselves have a ‘good reason’ for doing a sin, or to ‘explain’ ourselves. Nothing is sin anymore, we aren’t ‘responsible’ anymore, we’re all ‘good enough’ now, and if we aren’t, it’s GOD’s fault and HIS responsibility because WE didn’t ask to be born and He is the one who’s unfair. . .not us.

So we need reminders like Fatima, IMO.

God help us.

You have so totally hit the nail on the head. I just never looked at it in this particular way. Thanks for showing me the light of things.

One thing I can say is that all of the predictions from Fatima are coming to pass now. We see it ever before us. Just as you’ve stated, sin is no longer sin according to modern society. People have now strayed so far off the path of following God and being obedient to Him, that it looks just about like we are doomed. What in the world can wake up humanity? We’ve had WW II, Korea, Viet Nam, among in between wars, and let’s not forget the most horrid tragedy of the Twin Towers, and now look at the state of affairs we’re in. If this doesn’t look like the warning from Fatima, what does?

I will have to study and meditate on Fatima further to let my heart understand it a little better I think. These points that I mentioned just didn’t seem quite clear to me, but hearing it from a different perspective, now I can maybe understand a little better. I pray without cease, morning till night, throughout my day, within my heart, and I try very hard with God’s help to live a Godly life.

How people could not look for God is beyond me. It’s more then that, it’s frightening. I wish all these people that have strayed so far away from the love of God, that through His Divine Mercy, they will somehow be saved. I believe right up till the last minute, Our Lord will be calling them. Let’s pray they hear His voice before it’s too late.

Claire from DE IMO Our Lady came to ask the children to pray for Portugal, and to pray for the souls in Purgatory and for poor sinners, as well as in reparation for sins against the Sacred Heart of Jesus. She asked them to offer sacrifices. Therefore she told them what happened to their companion and showed them hell so they would see the terrible effects of sin. She told Francisco and Jacinta that they would not live long. They died in a flu epidemic not very long after the apparitions. They both offered their sufferings for the poor sinners.

I think Mary shared her concern for us with these children so God could use their sufferings which they accepted to save others and so that they could become saints. Lucia’s suffering was of a different sort. After the death of the others she was very lonely. She became a cloistered nun

This is all true. Jesus did say that to reach heaven one must become like a child. This would explain why this particular apparation is one of the most famous of all. I would imagine those children that suffered so from the illnesses that took their lives must be in very high mansions in heaven. They obeyed God, even being imprisoned, and nothing stopped them. Very unusual for small children to be that adamant, so God must have really prepared these children by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Thank you both for your very clear answers to my questions on Fatima and I am definitely going to reread the book I have on Fatima and see if my heart can accept certain parts of the visions a little bit better.

:bible1:

It was a private Revelation to her. Then don’t accept it, again it is a private revelation, no one is required to accept a private revelation.

Br. Rich, God bless you. This sheds a new light on things for me too. I didn’t know it was a private revelation since the book I read on Fatima, which was written by her own nephew who was a priest, not sure if he’s still alive or not, he didn’t make that part clear. I got the impression it was said before all the children about the friend in purgatory. I will reread that part as well and am going to pick up the book again for further study.
Blessings to all

 

[gookykookypig]

Your first problem is simple. Mary had a straight and frank talk with the three children for Mary is talking with children. Children are frank, direct to the point, and do not understand deep words even if someone reveals their meaning. Then, it is understandable that when Lucia asked Mary where her little friend is, Mary has to answer this for God has privileged them highly to be Mary’s channels, so Mary answered without much ado that her little friend is in purgatory. Simple answer and simple truth for simple minds.

There is this instance to when Lucia asked if Francisco will go to heaven with Jacinta. Mary indirectly said yes, and said “He must still pray for more rosaries”

Second problem, why would Mary let the children show the vision of hell. I think because they are privileged visionaries, and their privilege is like that of Mary 2000 years ago. Mary was chosen to be the mother of the Messiah, and God wouldn’t choose her if she cannot bear her own sufferings, just like what Simeon the just had prophesied “and a sword will pierce your own soul, too”. If these three children cannot bear in the first place the vision of hell, God will not choose them.

The Bible said in 1 Corinthians 10:13 :

“…God is faithful, who will not suffer you to
be tempted above that ye are able…”
(KJV)

If God didn’t even tempt men above their limitations, why would God choose these children if he knows they cannot bear hell’s terror? Secondly, the children said “If not were for the promise of our Lady that we will be in heaven, we will faint at that moment.” Mary also assured them their safety. A child may smirk when he sees his blueberry jam filled with molds, but he knows Mommy will not let him eat that.

And I think it is because of the frankness of children that they can describe with perfect details of their vision to others. If they were adolescents, maybe only half of the populace will believe them. Now, heaven had chosen children to be visionaries, so it will be harder for people to question their credibility, for they know that children cannot lie, especially a lie that involves public fora like these apparitions.

More…

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Hislittlelady,

I have also struggled with Fatima. I am just confused by Fatima. I have not outright rejected it or accepted it.

I had two problems with the revelvations. What disturbed me was that she asked the children to suffer illnesses for the salvation of many souls. This always struck me in the wrong way because it almost seems to transfer responsibility that Jesus took on Himself on the cross on to the backs of children.

When someone willingly takes on the role of martyr to join their sufferings to the Lord’s, it is a noble undertaking. But- I just find it counter-intuitive to what I know about the nature of Jesus and Mary. In the gospels, people were healed by Jesus- not afflicted with terrible suffering and diseas. But, as a counterpoint to that, they were admonished to take up their crosses and follow Him. (Hence confusion).

The second problem I had was that she does not appear to offer worship to God in any of her revelations, but she asks for devotion to her Immaculate Heart.

I really understand Mary’s Immaculate Heart as never being in any way separate from the worship of God, but in the revelations, it appears to be held up for worship on its own.

And yet, I do pray the Fatima prayer when I pray the Rosary, and that prayer is really the only thing that convinces me of the revelations, because I could never find a reasonable way to attribute the prayer to Satan.

 

[Hislittlelady]

Angels Unaware

I had two problems with the revelvations. What disturbed me was that she asked the children to suffer illnesses for the salvation of many souls. This always struck me in the wrong way because it almost seems to transfer responsibility that Jesus took on Himself on the cross on to the backs of children.

This part didn’t give me the problem, because the church has always taught that to follow Jesus, we must pick up our cross. God knew these little innocent children were so obedient to God, and He also knew that they would be willing to offer their sufferings for others, because mainly children have such pure little hearts and in their innocence can’t possibly understand what the suffering would entail, but nevertheless, they accepted what Mary told them in regards to that they would suffer and because they were so innocent and pure that these sufferings would indeed help those in purgatory along with others that were destined for eternal damnation. They were little martyrs for the faith and willingly accepted it.

The second problem I had was that she does not appear to offer worship to God in any of her revelations, but she asks for devotion to her Immaculate Heart

I really understand Mary’s Immaculate Heart as never being in any way separate from the worship of God, but in the revelations, it appears to be held up for worship on its own.

Yes I agree. This is the whole point of my confusion as well. It almost seems like she’s asking to be held up for adoration, and no disrespect intended to our Blessed Mother, but as you say, devotion to her heart alone has caused me much confusion and questions regarding these visions. I’ve always had a big question mark in my mind, was it really Mary and please folks, don’t let’s start a battle over this. I can’t take the arguments that ensue when someone divulges the questions they’ve been ashamed to bring out to others. I would enjoy a peaceable discussion instead.

I also don’t remember any other visions quite like Fatima, where so much emphasis was put on Mary herself to be prayed to. These are the many points that have plagued me and I wish my heart would come to a better understanding of all this. We’ve had many saints that have had divine revelations such as Sister Faustina and Bernadette just to name a few, but Fatima has always been the one that has left this question mark in my heart

And yet, I do pray the Fatima prayer when I pray the Rosary, and that prayer is really the only thing that convinces me of the revelations, because I could never find a reasonable way to attribute the prayer to Satan.

I’m also sure that by now if we were all wrong about the Fatima revelations and miracles, I would think God would have already brought the truth to the surface because most Catholics who pray the rosary so faithfully and look to Fatima, it is coming right from their hearts, in full belief that Mary, Our Mother, came straight from heaven to give us these messages. I doubt God would allow a lie to continue for this many years. So I’m going to continue to ask for an understanding heart in regards to Fatima.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

In my opinion, the reason that this revelation ‘appears’ to focus more on Mary than we might feel ‘comfortable’ with has to do with the past 400 years of the Protestant breakaway.

We live in a country that was founded with religious ideals. . .Protestant religious ideals. Most of the public school texts for the last few literate generations presented the Protestant history view. Like it or not, the last 400 years our Western culture has been permeated with a view that overtly and covertly denigrates Mary–so much so that even the best-catecized Catholics can be shaken, having lived ‘in the world’ and been affected almost without being conscious of it.

What I’m saying is that the Catholics of today have lost sight of the Catholic beliefs about Mary that existed prior to the Protestant break. The beliefs were stronger and purer, untouched by the ‘protesting’ that attempts to twist truth into a vast conspiracy by the evil Catholics to ‘add doctrine to pure Scripture’, to ‘foist’ Mary into a position of demi-godhood, etc.

All that we as Catholics are trying to do (and I am speaking of those who espouse the true faith, not ‘fringe’ groups which do a huge disservice by claiming to be ‘following the truth’ but actually are not) is to give Mary her true status as the Holy Spirit has taught.

We are beset on 2 sides–first and foremost by the Protestants who try to deny that truth, and second by the tiny fringe elements who exagerate and distort the truth into a falsehood which they claim is truth. The Protestants point to the fringe groups to say, "See, you really think she’s a goddess’. The fringe groups point to themselves in a gnostic kind of way as being ‘pure’. The average Catholic looks at the current watered down catechesis which is ambiguous as h-ll (pardon the expression, apt as it is), with his/her own education in other aspects such as history and literature equally abysmal, and is confused as the dickens because he/she doesn’t want to identify with the FRINGE group (who are wrong) and have been thoroughly affected by the ‘contemporary’ tactics and indoctrination of the Protestants (who are likewise wrong).

What Catholics need to do is educate themselves about Mary (and the Church too) **without bias. **They need to stop being influenced by the niggling little Protestant worldview that they have been absorbing for generations. They need to stop being afraid that by rejecting the Protestant worldview they are embracing a FRINGE or cultist view.

The truth will set us free.
We might be a little uncomfortable at first but provided we stick to good solid Church teaching we’ll be all right (and to be quite frank, stay away from anything that approves Feeneyism, Fr. Gruner, or even most ‘scholar’s work’ from the 20th century.

It might be hard at first, but start (with an open mind and a praying heart) with St. Louis De Montfort and St. Alphonsus Liguori. Think “Shakespearean language is flowery but it still is meaningful if we know the CONTEXT”. Read a good approved history of the Catholic Church. (Ask Church Militant or Reginald Plum to give you some titles).

It does take a awhile, even if you are old enough as I am to remember (vaguely) Latin Mass and many beautiful old traditions that nearly disappeared in the last 2 generations which helped us greatly in our understanding of the Communion of Saints.

What better time than this weekend, with All Saints and All Souls, to start a fresh and prayerful exploration of our Faith as it relates to our saints and especially to one of the greatest saints–the Blessed Mother?

 

[Apologist78]

I’ve been a Catholic since I’m born and when I was much younger I was very devoted to Our Lady and still love her as the Queen of Heaven and our Mother. I do, however, have a problem with the message from Fatima, and wondering if there is anyone that can help me out here with a little enlightenment.

My first problem is that when the children saw their visions of Mary, in one of them, Lucia asked Our lady if her little friend who had died went to heaven. Our lady responded that she was in purgatory. That’s my first problem. I do not believe such a thing that God or His Holy Mother would tell anyone specifically where a soul is. It doesn’t sit well with me. If seen in maybe a dream or a personal vision, but this was directly told to her. I question that.

My next problem is the children claimed to see horrific visions of hell. I also cannot understand that one. Why would our Holy Mother show small children something that terrible? I never thought God would reveal any aspects of heaven or hell to us before we left this earth. Maybe someone could clarify via scripture if this is so. From ones so young it sounds like fabrication, which brings up question as to the validity of Fatima at all, which I have always believed, except since I’ve discovered these points. I’ve read many books on Fatima, and seen movies as well, and they do acknowledge that Mary did these things.

Now please don’t misinterpret my next point, but it also appears to me that by the entire vision experience, it just seemed to glorify Mary too much. I’ve never put this in words or spoken of this, but I honor and Love Mary, our Mother, and I believe she was ever Virgin, a pure vessel of the Lord, but I find it difficult to believe that she would bring that much attention to herself, or so it appears.

I love Jesus so much, so tremendously, that for myself it’s a little difficult to pray to anyone else, but it’s perfectly fine and valid to pray for Our Lady’s intercession. She does bring many graces upon us I do believe that. But I do not recall Mary being as glorified in other visions as she has been in Fatima.

I would appreciate anyone’s insight into all this, and I mean no offense to the dear Mother of Our Lord, but it’s just this one apparition I’ve always wondered about, and for some odd reason, it does not sit well with me. Someone, please help and show me what I’m not understanding.

Thank you and God bless you all
:curtsey:

One of my favorite hymns is your quote at the bottom: Without a Plea.

 

[Apologist78]

Hislittlelady,

I have also struggled with Fatima. I am just confused by Fatima. I have not outright rejected it or accepted it.

I had two problems with the revelvations. What disturbed me was that she asked the children to suffer illnesses for the salvation of many souls. This always struck me in the wrong way because it almost seems to transfer responsibility that Jesus took on Himself on the cross on to the backs of children.

But that is the whole point of our Baptism- total and complete union with our savior! This means we share in his being. His being is life, death, and resurrection- hence we share that- we suffer, die, and rise. Just like him, we can suffer on behalf of another so that they (and us) may have life. We are exercising in this action the very life of God within us, the very Sonship of God which Christ gives to us.

When someone willingly takes on the role of martyr to join their sufferings to the Lord’s, it is a noble undertaking. But- I just find it counter-intuitive to what I know about the nature of Jesus and Mary. In the gospels, people were healed by Jesus- not afflicted with terrible suffering and diseas. But, as a counterpoint to that, they were admonished to take up their crosses and follow Him. (Hence confusion).

Not only that, but what about all the people not healed by Jesus? What about the ones he DID heal but they got sick again? How about the ones he raised from the dead who died again? When Jesus did those miracles it was always to manifest his glory, to show that his Kingdom has broken into the world.

How about the very apostles who did wondrous things- yet suffered terribly for Jesus?

The second problem I had was that she does not appear to offer worship to God in any of her revelations, but she asks for devotion to her Immaculate Heart.

Pope Benedict then Cardinal Ratzinger offered commentary on this very thing. Mary’s Immaculate heart says he is a symbol of the Church’s heart- purity, the heart that is fully and completely devoted to God. Hence to have devotion to “Mary’s Immaculate Heart” is to have devotion to the pure heart that is Full of Grace, the heart that is soley oriented towards God, and has only God’s Will as its concern.

I really understand Mary’s Immaculate Heart as never being in any way separate from the worship of God, but in the revelations, it appears to be held up for worship on its own.

Again, that heart is a reflection of the heart of the Church, the heart that is in total and complete union with God.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t have a problem with Our Lady telling Lucia that her friend was in purgatory.

God tells us the destination of souls all the time. He tells us certain people are in Heaven by performing miracles at their intercession so that they can be canonised as Saints :yup: So why not that a certain soul is in Purgatory, on her way to Heaven to become a Saint?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

But that is the whole point of our Baptism- total and complete union with our savior! This means we share in his being. His being is life, death, and resurrection- hence we share that- we suffer, die, and rise.

I do not think the purpose is total and complete union with God, but instead, unity of purpose with His will. If it were total union with God, then we would have little to separate us from eastern mysticism.

Just like him, we can suffer on behalf of another so that they (and us) may have life. We are exercising in this action the very life of God within us, the very Sonship of God which Christ gives to us.

We cannot suffer so that others can have life since we are not without sin. I believe the whole purpose of Jesus’ sacrifice was to suffer without sin for us who suffer for our sin; thus becoming the spotless sacrificial lamb and abolishing the need for further animal sacrifices.

 

[Hislittlelady]

Tantum ergo;4368299]In my opinion, the reason that this revelation ‘appears’ to focus more on Mary than we might feel ‘comfortable’ with has to do with the past 400 years of the Protestant breakaway.

I agree with you completely. Not only did the reformers leave the true church of Jesus Christ, but their church has continued to split down through the centuries causing further confusion. Is it any wonder we have so many questions and doubts about so much. I think before the reformation, it was taken as a matter of faith.

Today, with all the churches breaking farther and farther apart, it’s only becoming more confusing. That’s why I think we must fervently study our own faith.

I can’t see where the lack of acknowledgment of Mary by most Protestants can even come close to being acceptable. How can anyone who believes in Jesus, knowing the full story of His conception and birth, even dream of questioning who Mary really was, or to even dare to dishonor her with their ridiculous suppositions. I find it pretty much a disgrace.

I mean, how often does a woman get chosen to give birth to the King of all Kings in the entire universe and then some dare to say she was just an ordinary person like you and me. Sorry, but I cannot view it in that way.

The beliefs were stronger and purer, untouched by the ‘protesting’ that attempts to twist truth into a vast conspiracy by the evil Catholics to ‘add doctrine to pure Scripture’, to ‘foist’ Mary into a position of demi-godhood, etc.

Yes I have seen many places where we are called evil as well as the ‘whore of Babylon’ and that the Pope will be the antichrist. They tell us we make up our own rules. They tell us we will burn for all eternity for our lies and for praying to statues. They tell me Mary was nobody, just used as a vessel. How sick this is.

If I didn’t find this so hilarious and hysterically funny, I’d sit and cry. It is just too sick to even see what other denominations think of us. My favorite comeback, which by the way leaves most of my Protestant friends speechless since they have no come-back for this, I tell them, don’t ever forget you’re a Catholic, but decided to leave the faith. LOL. That gives me a good laugh too. They take it in fun as well but I remind them how serious this is. They’re good sports because we’re old friends, but still they can’t find their way into the faith of the true church of Jesus. They even admit it’s the true church, yet none of them return. They don’t like the rules they tell me. I have to laugh over this too. It makes no sense to me. .

All that we as Catholics are trying to do is to give Mary her true status as the Holy Spirit has taught.

If a Protestant is asked to break down the Hail Mary, what possible thing can they find in this prayer that shows worship of Mary. Not one single word of it. We are calling her blessed. I say my friends are blessed too sometimes. So what is it that they cannot understand I wonder? We’re allowed to be blessed, but Mary isn’t?? Is this so? You have to wonder about it. Just because I have problems with the Fatima apparition doesn’t mean I have problems with anything else. I am first and foremost a daughter of the one true Holy Apostolic Catholic Church.

The truth will set us free.
We might be a little uncomfortable at first but provided we stick to good solid Church teaching we’ll be all right

Yep! That about says it all. Study and understand the Catechism of the church. When I don’t understand something, I investigate as I did now to see what others can offer me by explanation. My mind accepts it, but my heart still is not too sure. Hopefully, one day the holy spirit will instill this truth in my heart.

:bible1:

 

[Hislittlelady]

Pope Benedict then Cardinal Ratzinger offered commentary on this very thing. Mary’s Immaculate heart says he is a symbol of the Church’s heart- purity, the heart that is fully and completely devoted to God. Hence to have devotion to “Mary’s Immaculate Heart” is to have devotion to the pure heart that is Full of Grace, the heart that is soley oriented towards God, and has only God’s Will as its concern.

I’m so glad you brought this up too. I never did quite get the Immaculate Heart of Mary, although I don’t doubt for one minute that she was Immaculate as was her heart also, but when I’ve heard people say to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, now I get the full picture. We are actually praying to God Himself. This does cause much confusion, especially to Protestants who don’t even have a clue, at least we have a head start. I think this is a fine explanation and you’ve done me a wonderful service with this. Now I’m seeing it from a new perspective.

I’m glad that Pope Benedict has been such a wonderful Pope so far and he seems to have a keen understanding of people’s doubts and confusion. I do have a large book of the history of the Catholic church, and did start to read it and it was excellent. I put it down becuase it started becoming very deep and it wore my brain down, but you know what? I think I’ll start with it again and this time, read one or two pages at a time. It really was a wonderful book and written by a Catholic author and as far as I recall I think it had the full approval of the church. I will check on that.

Thanks for all this enlightenment.

Blessings all

 

[brigid12]

Now please don’t misinterpret my next point, but it also appears to me that by the entire vision experience, it just seemed to glorify Mary too much. I’ve never put this in words or spoken of this, but I honor and Love Mary, our Mother, and I believe she was ever Virgin, a pure vessel of the Lord, but I find it difficult to believe that she would bring that much attention to herself, or so it appears.

I love Jesus so much, so tremendously, that for myself it’s a little difficult to pray to anyone else, but it’s perfectly fine and valid to pray for Our Lady’s intercession. She does bring many graces upon us I do believe that. But I do not recall Mary being as glorified in other visions as she has been in Fatima.

I would appreciate anyone’s insight into all this, and I mean no offense to the dear Mother of Our Lord, but it’s just this one apparition I’ve always wondered about, and for some odd reason, it does not sit well with me. Someone, please help and show me what I’m not understanding.

Thank you and God bless you all
:curtsey:

It would seem, since this apparition has been approved by the Church, that what happened in this apparition was done by Christ. Mary never wanted to bring attention to herself, I agree, however whatever apparitions that are approved by the Church, He did (with His mother as the messenger, in some). Besides, Mary’s messages at Fatima all went along with giving glory to Her Son in some way shape or form.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Hislittlelady, I’m participating in the devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and I’ll tell you what it’s basically about, to me.

First, Mary’s heart is absolutely entwined with the Sacred Heart of Jesus. It directs us to Jesus. Mary is more deeply intimate with Jesus than any other human can ever be, the most spectacularly one with Him of all. So to the extent that we are more deeply intimate with her Heart, we will be more deeply intimate with the Sacred Heart. In her, and through her, Christ’s Sacred Heart is found. We won’t find it on our own so directly, beautifully or perfectly as we will through the Immaculate Heart of Mary. The heart pumps blood through the body, maintaining life, and even so, this Heart physically created the Incarnation. This is the Heart that said, “yes,” to the archangel, consenting in love to the salvation of humanity being born through it. Thus through it and in it, we find Jesus most perfectly revealed and are most powerfully drawn into His presence. Mary’s Heart is gloriously united with that of her Son, so through her Heart, we too may most swiftly find the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

Second, since the Immaculate Heart is absolutely pure and absolutely phenomenal in glory and beauty, the more united we are with it in devotion, emulating its qualities, praising its virtues, receiving its blessings, the more our hearts will be like that of the one we praise. We will become pure saints in the image of this purest saint.

Third, Mary is our Mother, and she is beautiful. We absolutely adore our Father, God. So the Mother of God who gloriously empowers and purifies our lives through her intercession, power and love deserves intense love. She is our Mother! As our Mother, and the most gracious and beautiful of all God’s creations, she deserves great devotion. This does not detract from our relationships with God, but as I said in point one, it magnifies it. As Mary said herself, “My soul doth magnify the Lord.” Devoting ourselves to her “soul” is included in our devotion to Mary’s Heart, for in a symbolic sense, the Heart represents her entire being. This Heart magnifies the Lord. Mary is a creature of such spectacular beauty and love, so utterly “full of grace,” that she deserves the greatest devotion we can offer any person that is not God.

This devotion brings swift intimacy with Jesus, causes people in their lives to emulate Mother Mary, the perfect example for the Church, and love is simply the best response to love.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

In my own personal opinion, I find both the revelations that a given child was in purgatory, and that the children had visions of hell, to make the apparition more convincing to me, especially in these particular times.

Why? Because today’s society–and that goes for many if not most young (under 40) Catholics too–has pretty must lost a sense of sin.

We have an entitlement culture that pretty much feels that provided we aren’t doing things on the “Adolf Hitler” level, we **deserve **heaven because we are ‘good enough’.

We cringe at the idea that if a child (over the age of reason as this particular child was) has at a tender age been capable of sin enough to have that child in purgatory, then what might be the fate of many of us adults who certainly have far greater sins on our plate. And a reminder like this usually gives us an uneasy twinge of "gee, maye all those that I was so quick to forgive myself for, to not even bother to confess because they weren’t the ‘big stuff’, maybe I ought to be worried. To confess. To do penance for now."

As in so many other areas, we have been indoctrinated with an argument that goes like this:

“You need to be careful to ‘downplay’ things because you might make people too scrupulous or too fearful, or even cause them to despair–and it would be your fault if you drove them away from GOD.”

The problem with this is that in seeking to ‘protect’ the infinitismal percentage of people who really would be overwhelmed by the idea of their sinfulness (quick, raise your hand if you’ve been guilty of this on a regular basis in the last 40 years, don’t be shy). . .you are downplaying the very real teachings about heaven and hell which the vast 99.9% majority of people really** need**.

It’s one of Satan’s triumphs that he has managed to make so many people convinced that there is no way that they could ever be bad enough to deserve purgatory, let alone hell, while these same people are in fact living lives of greater moral depravity than at most points in history, and in which the depravity is actually presented as a good.

Certainly people have always sinned. They have engaged in sexual sin, they have lied, cheated, stolen and killed. Throughout most periods and especially the Christian era, though, they have always recognized that they DID sin. And so they felt guilt and repented (often publically). They were punished (often harshly). And when caught, they tried to explain why their own particular sin ‘didn’t match’ the criteria for sin in some way.

Now we have gone beyond that. Now, instead of trying to excuse our sinful ways by saying that we ‘had a reason’, or that we weren’t culpable because of circumstances beyond our control, we go even further–and refuse to accept that sin is sin.

Now we don’t have to make ourselves have a ‘good reason’ for doing a sin, or to ‘explain’ ourselves. Nothing is sin anymore, we aren’t ‘responsible’ anymore, we’re all ‘good enough’ now, and if we aren’t, it’s GOD’s fault and HIS responsibility because WE didn’t ask to be born and He is the one who’s unfair. . .not us.

So we need reminders like Fatima, IMO.

God help us.

What a stunningly good post!

I cannot think of a thing to add - bravo.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Hislittlelady,
I had two problems with the revelvations. What disturbed me was that she asked the children to suffer illnesses for the salvation of many souls. This always struck me in the wrong way because it almost seems to transfer responsibility that Jesus took on Himself on the cross on to the backs of children.

But Paul said “I offer up my sufferings to make up for what is lacking in Christ’s” (that’s a paraphrase). With no offense whatsoever, the notion that Christ’s sacrifice was all that was necessary for the expiation of all sin is a Protestant notion. Christ opened the doors of Paradise for us, but He did not put everyone there. Expiation of sin is still necessary.

The second problem I had was that she does not appear to offer worship to God in any of her revelations, but she asks for devotion to her Immaculate Heart.

I really understand Mary’s Immaculate Heart as never being in any way separate from the worship of God, but in the revelations, it appears to be held up for worship on its own.

I would also say, as others have posted, that this is an intrusion of Protestant-inspired thought - and I can relate as years ago I was there too! It is ingrained in our culture.

Mary is not holding up her Heart for worship - she’s holding up devotion to It as the most perfect and direct path to her Son.

“To Jesus, through Mary.”

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

It was a private Revelation to her. Then don’t accept it, again it is a private revelation, no one is required to accept a private revelation.

Could any serious Catholic really brush off Fatima so cavalierly?

What about the Miracle of the Sun, witnessed by some 70,000 people, including many atheists?

What about the prophecies that have been fulfilled dramatically?

What about the devotion of our Popes?

“Not required for belief” really doesn’t really suffice here.