Questions about Judas

[MarianD]

Just a couple of quick questions that are kind of bothering me.

#1: Did Judas repent? He felt bad for what he did and killed himself out of grief according to the two accounts from the Gospels and from Acts. Is this repentance?

#2: When Jesus appeared to His Apostles after His resurrection, the Gospels say “He appeared to the 11”. St. Thomas was the one who was missing, since the others had to go back and get him. So who was the 12th Apostle, if not Judas?

 

[Newbie2]

Just a couple of quick questions that are kind of bothering me.

#1: Did Judas repent? He felt bad for what he did and killed himself out of grief according to the two accounts from the Gospels and from Acts. Is this repentance?

Feeing guilt is not the same as repenting.
#2: When Jesus appeared to His Apostles after His resurrection, the Gospels say “He appeared to the 11”. St. Thomas was the one who was missing, since the others had to go back and get him. So who was the 12th Apostle, if not Judas?

Which Gospel? They synoptics are not exactly the same.

 

[MarianD]

Which Gospel? They synoptics are not exactly the same.

Mark 16:14 and John 20:24

Mark says there were 11, and John says that St. Thomas was absent.

 

[Barbkw]

How quickly was Matthias elected? Is it possible he was in the room and not yet elected?

 

[Newbie2]

Mark 16:14 and John 20:24

Mark says there were 11, and John says that St. Thomas was absent.

Two different accounts; Mark’s version could have Thomas present. We simply don’t know.

 

[Julian0404]

Read ACTS, Chapter 2, Matthias was elected very quickly, and the HOLY SPIRIT came upon him at Pentecost, thus demonstrating that GOD was “…binding in heaven…” what Peter had “…bound on earth…” with the election of Matthias.

Judas did not repent.

 

[broconsul]

Judas did not repent.

How do you know?

 

[1ke]

#1: Did Judas repent? He felt bad for what he did and killed himself out of grief according to the two accounts from the Gospels and from Acts. Is this repentance?

There is no indication in Scripture that Judas repented. Therefore the most that can be said is that we do not know.

##2: When Jesus appeared to His Apostles after His resurrection, the Gospels say “He appeared to the 11”. St. Thomas was the one who was missing, since the others had to go back and get him. So who was the 12th Apostle, if not Judas?

The Apostles chose Matthias to replace Judas so it is possible he was present, we don’t know.

It is also possible that “The Twelve” in this case is not a reference to the number of people present but to the office of the Apostles. So, even if they had not yet elected Matthias, they were still referred to as The Twelve.

Note also that it doesn’t say twelve people were present. It says “the disciples” were present but that “Thomas, one of the Twelve” was not. It icould be identifying *which *Thomas wasn’t present. There could have been a whole room full of people present when Jesus appeared, not *just *the Apostles. “Disciples” is broader in meaning than Apostles.

For example, the Apostles are later called The Twelve even after Matthias replaces Judas and Paul becomes an Apostle. So, The Twelve is a title of office and not a numerical count because with the addition of Paul there were actually 13.

It is not clear that the appearance in Mark 16 and John 20 are the same episode.

 

[blackrobe]

We can’t know whether Judas repented but the evidence does not favor a happy conclusion. Given that he hanged himself we can hope that he repented in the moments before his death but we cannot know. Nor can we know with certainty the state of his intellect and will at any point in the whole sad story. It looks bad for him but God’s mercy was available so long as he lived.

AMDG
jsa

 

[ConstantineTG]

How quickly was Matthias elected? Is it possible he was in the room and not yet elected?

Since the election of Matthias was covered by Luke in Acts, Mark could have glossed over that detail and assumed that Matthias was already one of the 12 there. Its one of the many possibilites on interpreting what is meant here. Remember in Acts Peter was quoted by saying that Matthias was with them from the beginning, so its very likely he was with them after the Ressurection

 

[Julian0404]

How do you know?

In reference to Judas JESUS declared that “…it would have been better had you never been born…” paraphrase.
To the good thief JESUS declared “…this day you shall be with ME in my Kingdom…” paraphrase.

One speaks of eternal condemnation, one of eternal reward.

If Judas were to seek forgiveness, which the LORD would have granted, then it would not be “…better that he not be born…” as with his request, he would have received the promise of salvation - like the good thief.

 

[broconsul]

In reference to Judas JESUS declared that “…it would have been better had you never been born…” paraphrase.
To the good thief JESUS declared “…this day you shall be with ME in my Kingdom…” paraphrase.

One speaks of eternal condemnation, one of eternal reward.

If Judas were to seek forgiveness, which the LORD would have granted, then it would not be “…better that he not be born…” as with his request, he would have received the promise of salvation - like the good thief.

You aren’t implying that Judas’s sin could not ever be forgiven, are you?

Edit: Also, consider the regret he expresses in Mt 27:4.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You aren’t implying that Judas’s sin could not ever be forgiven, are you?

Surely if Judas had repented he would have been forgiven and indeed restored to his place among the apostles. And surely had this been known to be the case it would have been included in the gospels. After all, St. Peter had denied Christ three times, and repented. (this is recorded).

But the question is not ‘was his sin unforgiveable?’ The question was, “did he repent at all?”

Others have answered: We do not know. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture which indicates that he did, and more than a hint in Scripture and in tradition that he did not, but there is no absolute statement, and you will note that the Church does not view “even Judas” as being ‘assuredly’ in hell.

So the only answer: We don’t know. If he managed to repent before death, then God would likely extend mercy. If he didn’t repent, then he freely chose hell. And NOT because his sin was ‘unforgivable’.

 

[broconsul]

My question was a rhetorical one. :yup: Of course I knew Judas could repent and be forgiven, if he so chose.

It just struck me as though Julian was suggesting Judas could not be forgiven because Jesus told him it would have been better had he never been born.

 

[Julian0404]

You aren’t implying that Judas’s sin could not ever be forgiven, are you?

Edit: Also, consider the regret he expresses in Mt 27:4.

“…which the LORD would have granted…” I am implying that Judas only had to ask to be forgiven. I am asserting that with JESUS declaration, he did not accept the forgiveness.

And why did he not accept forgiveness? Read the gospel accounts and you will find “…and satan entered into him…” paraphrase. He had chosen to accept and join in the evil that was being perpitrated by the Pharisee’s against JESUS and became the trophy of satan - one of JESUS own, selected by HIS own hand, but now being directed by the evil one.

Judas is our reminder, today in the 21st century, that there are indeed wolves in cleric robes, as in JESUS time, but that they will not prevail against the church.

Additionally, Judas is an image to the clerics, that the sacrament of confession and penance will prevent them from becoming “Judas’s”, regardless of their sin’s, “if” they have the strength of “will” to call out and cry for forgiveness.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

My question was a rhetorical one. :yup: Of course I knew Judas could repent and be forgiven, if he so chose.

It just struck me as though Julian was suggesting Judas could not be forgiven because Jesus told him it would have been better had he never been born.

Oh I see. I didn’t get that from Julian’s response myself though.

 

[inkaneer]

Just a couple of quick questions that are kind of bothering me.

#1: Did Judas repent? He felt bad for what he did and killed himself out of grief according to the two accounts from the Gospels and from Acts. Is this repentance?

Judas did try to give the money back to the priests when he saw that his conspiracy did not produce the effect he desired. In essence he is trying to undo what he had done. Of course that is impossible as there are bigger players involved and Judas is a mere pawn in their employ. Failing in that attempt he throws the money into the temple and goes out and dies. Now whether he committed suicide as generally believed or whether his death was accidental is open for discussion because the scriptures give two different accounts of his death. However, Jesus’ words in Mark 14:21 seem to indicate that Judas’ fate was not good. Still, the Church has never made any pronouncement on Judas’ ultimate fate. So you can form your own opinion.

#2: When Jesus appeared to His Apostles after His resurrection, the Gospels say “He appeared to the 11”. St. Thomas was the one who was missing, since the others had to go back and get him. So who was the 12th Apostle, if not Judas?

You are referring to Mark 16:14 and John 20:24. They do not relate to the same appearance. If you read Mark chapter 16 Mark has Jesus appearing to the Apostles in verse 14 and then in the very next verse, verse 15, has Jesus ascending into heaven. What happened to the 40 days Jesus walked the earth after the Resurrection and before the Ascencion? Obviously Mark has a highly condensed version of these forty days. John’s Gospel records two appearrance of Jesus to the Apostles. One without Thomas and another one week later with Thomas present. Mark 16:14 therefore lines up, not with John 20:24 but rather John 20:26. So eleven Apostles were present and receive the authortity to forgive sins. This all occurs before the Ascencion. Matthias was not elected to replace Judas until after the Ascencion.