Questions about justification

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Several quick questions as I am debating the owner of justforcatholics.org on justification by faith alone.
  1. Can one become more justified or further justified? Or as my Protestant opponent says, you can’t become more justified just as you can’t become more married.
My assertion was that we can become more justified by continually doing God’s will and growing in holiness by our faith and works. Or would one be growing in sanctification and not justification?
  1. Does God’s grace help one to cooperate with his grace? Or is it soley by the person’s free will given by God that he decides to cooperate with God’s grace then God’s grace brings him to justification?
It seems to me that God’s grace helping us to cooperate with God’s grace doesn’t make sense as it takes away free will and we become God’s robots or pawns. I believe this is the Protestants position, that God’s grace moves us from the very first instant and we have no control over the decision.

Thanks
 
If you have not read the section titled “Grace and Justification” in the Catechism of the Catholic Church - CCC #1987-2029. I would recommend you do so before you continue debating. Here’s a link to that section if you don’t have the CCC. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Y.HTM

Protestants tend to make a very clear distinction/separation between justification, sanctification (seems like there’s a third one, but it eludes me now) – like no overlapping. Catholic use of those terms is broader, or more inclusive – overlapping. Sanctification is a part of being justified. For example:
CCC #1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the “inner man,”, justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
(paragraph then quotes Romans 6:19 and 22)
 
FNDRB58 said:
  1. Does God’s grace help one to cooperate with his grace? Or is it soley by the person’s free will given by God that he decides to cooperate with God’s grace then God’s grace brings him to justification?
It seems to me that God’s grace helping us to cooperate with God’s grace doesn’t make sense as it takes away free will and we become God’s robots or pawns. I believe this is the Protestants position, that God’s grace moves us from the very first instant and we have no control over the decision.

Thanks
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Yes, God’s grace does help us to cooperate with His grace. The word “help” is key. He doesn’t take over, He helps.

There are two kinds of grace.
  1. Habitual grace.
    This is the grace we receive in Baptism.
    The grace of justification is most often called “sanctifying grace” in Catholic teaching.
  2. Actual graces.
    These are the temporary assisting graces/helps God bestows at certain times.
    For example, He can and does bestow many actual graces that help us in cooperating with the sanctifying grace (supernatural life) present in our soul. Graces that help us grow in sanctification.
(See CCC #1999 and #2000 in the link I gave in Post #2)
 
FNDRB58 said:
Several quick questions as I am debating the owner of justforcatholics.org on justification by faith alone.
  1. Can one become more justified or further justified? Or as my Protestant opponent says, you can’t become more justified just as you can’t become more married.
My assertion was that we can become more justified by continually doing God’s will and growing in holiness by our faith and works. Or would one be growing in sanctification and not justification?
  1. Does God’s grace help one to cooperate with his grace? Or is it soley by the person’s free will given by God that he decides to cooperate with God’s grace then God’s grace brings him to justification?
It seems to me that God’s grace helping us to cooperate with God’s grace doesn’t make sense as it takes away free will and we become God’s robots or pawns. I believe this is the Protestants position, that God’s grace moves us from the very first instant and we have no control over the decision.

Thanks
Click to expand...
It is God’s actual grace which draws us to him to accept Christ’s redemption and forgiveness of sin in faith.
Then the process begins, Baptism in the Trinity removes sin, Justification is bestowed, sanctifying grace is given by the Spirit and the process toward holiness begins within us.
So Justification is given once. However it can be lost through the Christian falling back into mortal(deadly)sin. Mortal sin separates us from God. Repentance and forgiveness restores us to Gods good graces. Thank you for your mercy dear Lord! :)Peace, Carlan
 
Rom 4:2 says Abram was justified by his faith in Gen 15:6. One could argue Abram was justified by faith all the way back in Gen 12:1-4 per Heb 11:8-10. James 2:23 clearly says Abraham was further justified in Gen 22:1-18.
 
FNDRB58 said:
  1. Can one become more justified or further justified? … Or would one be growing in sanctification and not justification?
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You have it right. The Council of Trent explained it well: history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html, scroll down to Chapter X: On the increase of Justification received.
  1. Does God’s grace help one to cooperate with his grace? Or is it soley by the person’s free will given by God that he decides to cooperate with God’s grace then God’s grace brings him to justification?
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This is also answered by Trent in the link above, Chapter V.
It seems to me that God’s grace helping us to cooperate with God’s grace doesn’t make sense as it takes away free will and we become God’s robots or pawns. I believe this is the Protestants position, that God’s grace moves us from the very first instant and we have no control over the decision.
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No. Grace frees your will to choose what is right.
 
FNDRB58 said:
  1. Can one become more justified or further justified? Or as my Protestant opponent says, you can’t become more justified just as you can’t become more married.
Click to expand...
That is because many Protestants do not include sanctification as part of justification. They believe in “imputed righteousness” meaning that when God justifies, He does not heal the soul of imperfection, but He rather “declares legally” that the soul is innocent because of Christ. Essentially God “sees only Christ” when He sees the sinner. The sinner is not actually made holier. Regarding justification and sanctification, Catholic theology holds the two as a singular concept:*This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting. (Council of Trent, 6.7)*There is abundant Scripture speaking of our need for purification/sanctification, God chastising His children to make them holier, fit for heaven, etc… So in a proper sense, one can be said to be “more justified” if his soul is more pure toward the condition it will be in heaven.
 
  1. Yes. We can be justified further. “He that is just, let him be justified still.” It is also written
“Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.” (Romans 6:16-18)

As we see in this passage, St. Paul is talking in terms of people who were already under grace (that is, initially justified, because they have chosen to be slaves of God instead). Since they have initially been justified, they can now merit even greater justification (obedience leads to righteousness), which they could not have done had they not been justified already. Let’s go on.

"When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But then what return did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. But now that you have become slaves of God (that is, you are justified), the return you get is sanctification and its end eternal life (this is what you get in return for obedience). For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (As the Church teaches, God does not ‘owe us wages’, which is why Paul makes the distinction between wages, but rather rewards us as a free gift. God is under no obligation.)

Overall, the blessed Apostle St. Paul uses a most beautiful analogy. We become slaves to God (represents initial faith) which initially justifies. As we live and work in obedience to God, as his slaves, God rewards us more because He is a loving and just giver. Just like slaves, God owes us nothing, but chooses freely out of his kindness to reward us as a good and loving master.

2)God’s grace helps, but we cooperate with that grace.
 
I think it is helpful to remember that when we receive grace from God, what we receive is God Himself. Whatever one thinks about the order of salvation, we must be very careful to remember that having received grace, that is salvation, we have received God in the person of the Holy Spirit. And it is the continuing attendant mercy of the Holy Spirit which vitalizes the Christian Life and makes possible any good works we do which will be pleasing to God.

And one need only believe the Bible to know that.

What I am saying is that (and I am a protestant) I think your friend misunderstands salvation. We do not become all we can be when we are saved (Romans) and there is a burning away of the chaff in our lives and at judgment (Corinthians) and for this reason St Paul always speaks of salvation as a past, continual and future event. But the sinner who thinks his salvation is a one time event with no continual works falls afoul of not only the Bible, as though that were not enough, but even (gasp) Martin Luther who said salvation is by faith alone but not by a faith which is alone, and Thesis 1, the life of the Christian is to be marked by penitence.

Tell your friend this and pray for him/her.

God Bless
 
bogeydogg gave a very good explanation of justification. Your position seems remarkably close to the Catholic/Orthodox position. I have not ever heard this coming from a protestant.
 
I am very catholic in many of my understandings but I am not Catholic because there are certain doctrines I have a very hard time with in the Church. Though I am considering RCIA to see if these differences would be negated, I am unwilling to simply pass them by and Rome to her credit will not recognize me as Catholic with these differences of doctrine.

However the Holy Father himself has said one need only believe on Jesus as Lord, be baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and take the Lord’s table to be a Christian and I have and do all of those things so I trust God will work out the rest.

God Bless,
 
I think if you prayed the Holy Rosary you’d be Catholic much quicker than you’d imagine. Take care and God bless you.
 
bogeydogg said:
However the Holy Father himself has said one need only believe on Jesus as Lord, be baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and take the Lord’s table to be a Christian and I have and do all of those things so I trust God will work out the rest.

God Bless,
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Yes we (and Pope Benedict XVI) recognize that those who believe in Christ (and of course the Trinity) and who are validly baptized are Christians…but they are not in full communion with us (and thus cannot (unless perhaps Eastern Orthodox etc) receive the Eucharist) and thus are lacking in many many aspects of what Jesus gave us etc…so he and we would encourage seeking that full communion with the Catholic Church…

(come on in …the Holy Water is fine…:)…)
 
FNDRB58 said:
  1. Can one become more justified or further justified?
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Justification refers to being in the state of grace. You are either in the state of grace, or you are not in the state of grace. A person who is in the state of grace can grow in holiness, but that is distinct from justification. So your ‘Protestant opponent’ is correct on that point.
FNDRB58 said:
  1. Does God’s grace help one to cooperate with his grace? Or is it soley by the person’s free will given by God that he decides to cooperate with God’s grace then God’s grace brings him to justification?
Click to expand...
There are two types of actual grace:
  1. prevenient grace, which is an act of God alone, without our cooperation
  2. subsequent grace, in which we cooperate with grace by our free will.
    God’s grace is always first, before we can do any act of cooperation with grace by our free will, since He must move and enable free will to subsequently cooperate with grace.
This teaching is found in the Summa Theologica. See also CCC 2670.

We cannot freely choose to cooperate with grace without the grace to make such a good free decision. Grace is always first in any good act.
 
Ron_Conte said:
Justification refers to being in the state of grace. You are either in the state of grace, or you are not in the state of grace. A person who is in the state of grace can grow in holiness, but that is distinct from justification. So your ‘Protestant opponent’ is correct on that point.

There are two types of actual grace:
  1. prevenient grace, which is an act of God alone, without our cooperation
  2. subsequent grace, in which we cooperate with grace by our free will.
    God’s grace is always first, before we can do any act of cooperation with grace by our free will, since He must move and enable free will to subsequently cooperate with grace.
This teaching is found in the Summa Theologica. See also CCC 2670.

We cannot freely choose to cooperate with grace without the grace to make such a good free decision. Grace is always first in any good act.
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Conversely, can it be said that if we choose not to cooperate with grace then that is not by grace therefore we chose by our own free will or are we to say that we cooperated with the devil or it was the devil that moved us in that direction at that moment?
 
FNDRB58 said:
Conversely, can it be said that if we choose not to cooperate with grace then that is not by grace therefore we chose by our own free will or are we to say that we cooperated with the devil or it was the devil that moved us in that direction at that moment?
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I don’t know why we have to make things sound so complicated,

I guess Ron was saying that prevenient grace is the gift God gives to give to the sinner who becomes aware of his sin and is sorrowful and ready to accept forgiveness and redemption by acting on his free will. The sinner must be in the right place to receive before God will act. He must say yes to the Father.🤷
I have always called that actual grace.
Sanctifying Grace is indwelling, given with Baptism and Justification. It is what helps make us holy. Peace, Carlan
 
Carlan said:
I don’t know why we have to make things sound so complicated,

I guess Ron was saying that prevenient grace is the gift God gives to give to the sinner who becomes aware of his sin and is sorrowful and ready to accept forgiveness and redemption by acting on his free will. The sinner must be in the right place to receive before God will act. He must say yes to the Father.🤷
I have always called that actual grace.
Sanctifying Grace is indwelling, given with Baptism and Justification. It is what helps make us holy. Peace, Carlan
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This is a theological issue therefore is very complicated and requires faith to truly accept it. I welcome responses by those who are willing to dissect this with me.

I am trying to understand who makes the first move. That is, is it our free will, given to us by God of course, that decides whether to accept the grace that God offers to us from the beginning, or…is it by God’s grace and no our own, or is it both, when we decide to accept and cooperate with God’s grace. In other words, what happens before we accept God’s or reject God’s grace? And certainly, if at that first moment, we reject God’s grace then it is not by God’s grace that we chose evil for God would not do that. So is it Satan that moved us in that direction or was it solely by our free will that we chose evil. If by free will we chose evil, then conversely, why wouldn’t it by free will that we chose good…only after that choice would God’s grace then bring us to justification.
 
FNDRB58 said:
This is a theological issue therefore is very complicated and requires faith to truly accept it. I welcome responses by those who are willing to dissect this with me.

I am trying to understand who makes the first move. That is, is it our free will, given to us by God of course, that decides whether to accept the grace that God offers to us from the beginning, or…is it by God’s grace and no our own, or is it both, when we decide to accept and cooperate with God’s grace. In other words, what happens before we accept God’s or reject God’s grace? And certainly, if at that first moment, we reject God’s grace then it is not by God’s grace that we chose evil for God would not do that. So is it Satan that moved us in that direction or was it solely by our free will that we chose evil. If by free will we chose evil, then conversely, why wouldn’t it by free will that we chose good…only after that choice would God’s grace then bring us to justification.
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We make the first move, God’s actual grace is there for everyone to grab a hold of, God convicts us of our sin and we either turn to Him in repentance for his help, his forgiveness or we push Him away, shut him out,and our free will continues to accept the temptation of the evil one.I would say a person who is wallowing in their sin does not turn to God in repentance until they become desperate in their misery. The devil is most powerful.
Perhaps if you hang around, FNDRB58, someone will come along who can answer your concerns in a much clearer way than I.:)Carlan
 
FNDRB58 said:
This is a theological issue therefore is very complicated and requires faith to truly accept it. I welcome responses by those who are willing to dissect this with me.

I am trying to understand who makes the first move. That is, is it our free will, given to us by God of course, that decides whether to accept the grace that God offers to us from the beginning, or…is it by God’s grace and no our own, or is it both, when we decide to accept and cooperate with God’s grace. In other words, what happens before we accept God’s or reject God’s grace? And certainly, if at that first moment, we reject God’s grace then it is not by God’s grace that we chose evil for God would not do that. So is it Satan that moved us in that direction or was it solely by our free will that we chose evil. If by free will we chose evil, then conversely, why wouldn’t it by free will that we chose good…only after that choice would God’s grace then bring us to justification.
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I think it’s that God’s grace gives us our free will, allowing us to choose. It would be by our free will that we chose good, but because our free will was given us by God’s grace, then it is still by God’s grace that we are justified.

However, you’re right in saying that it wouldn’t be by God’s grace that we reject Him. But since we start off, in a sense, rejecting him, it’s not that His grace caused us to choose evil, it just didn’t cause us to choose good.

Think of it in terms of the state of our soul. We start off as spiritually dead. If we choose to cooperate with God’s grace, we become spiritually alive. If we don’t cooperate, we remain spiritually dead. God didn’t make us spiritually dead, though; we were that way from the first.
 
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