Questions about justification

[FNDRB58]

I think it’s that God’s grace gives us our free will, allowing us to choose. It would be by our free will that we chose good, but because our free will was given us by God’s grace, then it is still by God’s grace that we are justified.

However, you’re right in saying that it wouldn’t be by God’s grace that we reject Him. But since we start off, in a sense, rejecting him, it’s not that His grace caused us to choose evil, it just didn’t cause us to choose good.

Think of it in terms of the state of our soul. We start off as spiritually dead. If we choose to cooperate with God’s grace, we become spiritually alive. If we don’t cooperate, we remain spiritually dead. God didn’t make us spiritually dead, though; we were that way from the first.

So for an adult who is spiritually dead, decides to cooperate with God’s grace, we don’t credit him only for choosing God for it was by God’s grace that he had the free will to choose God in the first place. Although we ultimately give God the credit because he made us and gave us free will (and this too is by God’s grace), there is still the mystery that we had something do to with it, otherwise we would be God’s robots.

Then both Catholics and Protestants believe that God is to be ultimately credited with our choosing Him but where we differ is that we Catholics believe that God allowed us to play our own part in it, which truly is a mystery and not logical as the Trinity, God Incarnate, or the Virgin Birth is not logical…we just accept it as truth?

Can we thus conclude the following: Protestants do not accept that while God is ulimately responsible (which we both believe), God do not at the same time let man play a part in it. I would then say to them that God is treating us as his subjects or robots and not letting us choose using the free will he gave us.

Forgive me if I sound redundant. Tell me if this makes sense.

 

[Carlan]

Can we thus conclude the following: Protestants do not accept that while God is ulimately responsible (which we both believe), God do not at the same time let man play a part in it. I would then say to them that God is treating us as his subjects or robots and not letting us choose using the free will he gave us…

I do not believe all Protestants do, the Calvinist Reformers believe along those lines, as much as I know about them anyway. Peace, Carlan

 

[psyche825]

Can we thus conclude the following: Protestants do not accept that while God is ulimately responsible (which we both believe), God do not at the same time let man play a part in it. I would then say to them that God is treating us as his subjects or robots and not letting us choose using the free will he gave us.

Not all Protestants accept that view. Calvinists, as Carlan mentioned, would definitely adhere to that view, but others (such as, I think, Methodists) would agree more with the Catholic view.

Then both Catholics and Protestants believe that God is to be ultimately credited with our choosing Him but where we differ is that we Catholics believe that God allowed us to play our own part in it, which truly is a mystery and not logical as the Trinity, God Incarnate, or the Virgin Birth is not logical…we just accept it as truth?

That’s mostly right, but I don’t know if I’d agree that those things aren’t logical. The word “mystery” as the Church uses it doesn’t mean something illogical that we can’t understand, but rather something about which we can’t understand everything. See this Quick Question from This Rock for more on this (it’s the second from the bottom).

 

[FNDRB58]

Not all Protestants accept that view. Calvinists, as Carlan mentioned, would definitely adhere to that view, but others (such as, I think, Methodists) would agree more with the Catholic view.

That’s mostly right, but I don’t know if I’d agree that those things aren’t logical. The word “mystery” as the Church uses it doesn’t mean something illogical that we can’t understand, but rather something about which we can’t understand everything. See this Quick Question from This Rock for more on this (it’s the second from the bottom).

of course, I mean illogical in the sense that it is not logical how God created the universe or that Mary birthed a child without man, and the Trinity itself is not logical to us, we have to accept all these things has being possible by our omnipotent God.

 

[psyche825]

of course, I mean illogical in the sense that it is not logical how God created the universe or that Mary birthed a child without man, and the Trinity itself is not logical to us, we have to accept all these things has being possible by our omnipotent God.

In that case, then, I believe you are correct

 

[FNDRB58]

Justification refers to being in the state of grace. You are either in the state of grace, or you are not in the state of grace. A person who is in the state of grace can grow in holiness, but that is distinct from justification. So your ‘Protestant opponent’ is correct on that point.

There are two types of actual grace:

1. prevenient grace, which is an act of God alone, without our cooperation
2. subsequent grace, in which we cooperate with grace by our free will.
   God’s grace is always first, before we can do any act of cooperation with grace by our free will, since He must move and enable free will to subsequently cooperate with grace.

This teaching is found in the Summa Theologica. See also CCC 2670.

We cannot freely choose to cooperate with grace without the grace to make such a good free decision. Grace is always first in any good act.

Actually, Chapter 10 from the Council of Trent indeed explicitly states, “…they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified…”

I have my answer. Thanks for all the great responses. I understand this much better now.