Questions about Mass at Benedictine Monastery

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Giannawannabe

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I have been attending Mass at a Benedictine Monastery near my home for almost 2 years. The Monks are wonderful and the Mass is beautiful. However, I notice that the custom is to stand during the consecration. Since there are no lay people on the altar (only 7-8 Monks), they all stand, so I figured the congregation was just imitating what was going on at the altar. Then, someone told me that it was “The Benedictine Order tradition to stand during the Consecration”. This did not make sense to me. My family, as well as others in the congregation kneel, but most stand. Can anyone shed some light on this? Part of the chapel has kneelers, but it does not matter. Even when people sit with the kneelers, they do not kneel during the Consecration.

Thanks for any information.
 
I attended Mass at a Benedictine Abbey which does the same thing–standing during the consecration. I’ve also come from a retreat at a hermitage and in the monastic tradition, they also stand during the consecration.

Penitent
 
I know that the Cistercians stand during the consecration, and that this is due to the Eastern Christian influence on their Rule and liturgical practices.

I was not aware of this being universal among Benedictines. My experience is limited to the monks of Clear Creek in OK. These guys are part of th Solesmes Congregation, one of the very few orthodox Benedictine branches around, the guys who produce the Graduale Romanum, so I’d imagine they know what they’re doing. They kneel like all other Latin Catholics.
 
most religious orders have indults to make certain changes in the Mass and LOTH, while I do attend Mass at a Benedictine monastery with the nuns, the priest is a retired secular priest and Mass is conducted in the usual way. We do not kneel because the chapel is tiny (until their church is built) and there is simply no room and the nuns, priests and most others attending are elderly or handicapped. Those who wish to kneel do so on the floor.

Cannot speak to Benedictine practice, however the practice in many parts of the world is to stand, so the practice may depend on the country of origin of the monastery.
 
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puzzleannie:
Cannot speak to Benedictine practice, however the practice in many parts of the world is to stand, so the practice may depend on the country of origin of the monastery.
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Annie,

This is what I’ve been told by others at the monastery who have questioned the Monks about the practice of standing during the Consecration.

So, I guess my next question is this: Should we stand during Consecration as that appears to be the practice of this particular monastery due to it’s country of origin (France?). Or should we kneel as that is the practice in the USA? We feel more respectful to Our Lord when kneeling and that is what I wish to teach my children. However, since most of the congregation stands, and it may be the custom for the Benedictines, is it more humble and respectful to stand? Thank you.
 
wherever you are attending Mass you should assume, until it is definitely proven otherwise, that the presider is conducting the liturgy according to the norms that apply in that time and place. It is not your concern to research all the details, that is the liturgist’s problem, and the priest is the liturgist. So do whatever you are instructed to do. If you observe something that seems to you a definite abuse (not just a change in custom) approach the priest privately and ask in a non-confrontational way, “Father I have never seen this practice in my diocese, can you explain it to me?”
 
Standing as a standard posture during consecration predates the practice of kneeling. It goes back to Nicea I.

Dan L
 
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Giannawannabe:
Annie,

This is what I’ve been told by others at the monastery who have questioned the Monks about the practice of standing during the Consecration.

So, I guess my next question is this: Should we stand during Consecration as that appears to be the practice of this particular monastery due to it’s country of origin (France?). Or should we kneel as that is the practice in the USA? We feel more respectful to Our Lord when kneeling and that is what I wish to teach my children. However, since most of the congregation stands, and it may be the custom for the Benedictines, is it more humble and respectful to stand? Thank you.
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As this is their monastery and this is the norm for them, I think you would be wrong to kneel.

I am going to be blunt here. If you wish to teach your children to kneel, then go elsewhere.

There is nothing disrespectful by standing, we do it in the Eastern Church. There is nothing mroe respectful in kneeling. They are both acceptable customs depending on where you are.
 
It was Saint Augustine who, invoking the example of his mother Saint Monica, said “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.” He was speaking of liturgical and paraliturgical matters.

It would be rude for one to kneel if such is not proper to the Rite in question, and if one were aware of this.

Now, if a monastery-in-question is commiting liturgical abuse, that’s a whole other matter . . .
 
standing is allowed during consecration as long as you make a profound bow when the celebrant genuflect. this is a sign of reverence
 
viktor aleksndr:
standing is allowed during consecration as long as you make a profound bow when the celebrant genuflect. this is a sign of reverence
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Say what?! This is not true for the normative Roman rite.
 
Giannawannabe:

I finally found the Monastery about a week ago (a couple of miles down the dirt road. It is about 30 miles from were I live. I eMailed them tonight to see if I can get a Spiritual Directory there so I may be attending stuff up there.

Interesting note. I see the Lutherans have their “Benedictine” monastery almost across the street. :ehh:

PF
 
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puzzleannie:
wherever you are attending Mass you should assume, until it is definitely proven otherwise, that the presider is conducting the liturgy according to the norms that apply in that time and place. It is not your concern to research all the details, that is the liturgist’s problem, and the priest is the liturgist. So do whatever you are instructed to do. If you observe something that seems to you a definite abuse (not just a change in custom) approach the priest privately and ask in a non-confrontational way, “Father I have never seen this practice in my diocese, can you explain it to me?”
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Actually this is not entertainment hence the word “presider” is wrong here. He is the Priest celebrant. Also, if your argument were correct, each priest celebrates Mass according to his own fancy. NOT. Many a times recently Cardinal Arinze has said that the Mass is not the priest’s private thing. He must follow the rubrics, and the faithful have a canonical right to ask him to so do.
 
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misericordie:
Actually this is not entertainment hence the word “presider” is wrong here. He is the Priest celebrant. Also, if your argument were correct, each priest celebrates Mass according to his own fancy. NOT. Many a times recently Cardinal Arinze has said that the Mass is not the priest’s private thing. He must follow the rubrics, and the faithful have a canonical right to ask him to so do.
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But the issue here is when attending a Mass at a Monastery. As the norms may differ from the local Diocese as the head of the Monastery is the Abbot not the local Bishop. Not to mention the fact that the Liturgy may incorporate some aspects of the traditional rite of the order. I know for a fact that the Trappists have kept some of their rite in the Mass so it would be different than every other Mass in the Diocese of Rochester, NY.
 
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ByzCath:
But the issue here is when attending a Mass at a Monastery. As the norms may differ from the local Diocese as the head of the Monastery is the Abbot not the local Bishop. Not to mention the fact that the Liturgy may incorporate some aspects of the traditional rite of the order. I know for a fact that the Trappists have kept some of their rite in the Mass so it would be different than every other Mass in the Diocese of Rochester, NY.
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I would prefer to go to a Benedictine Mass than one in that diocese you mention;) .
 
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ByzCath:
As this is their monastery and this is the norm for them, I think you would be wrong to kneel.

I am going to be blunt here. If you wish to teach your children to kneel, then go elsewhere.

There is nothing disrespectful by standing, we do it in the Eastern Church. There is nothing mroe respectful in kneeling. They are both acceptable customs depending on where you are.
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Ok, let me be the devil’s advocate for a minute here. :angel1:

A few months back there was a woman who posted that she, an Eastern rite Catholic, had her children in a Latin rite school. She insisted to the administration of the school and they conceded to the point that her children, as Eastern Catholics, should not have to kneel for the consecration. Everyone seemed to agree that she should instill her Eastern traditions in the children regardless of whether the Mass was Eastern or Latin and that the school should allow it. How is this different?
 
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kmktexas:
Ok, let me be the devil’s advocate for a minute here. :angel1:

A few months back there was a woman who posted that she, an Eastern rite Catholic, had her children in a Latin rite school. She insisted to the administration of the school and they conceded to the point that her children, as Eastern Catholics, should not have to kneel for the consecration. Everyone seemed to agree that she should instill her Eastern traditions in the children regardless of whether the Mass was Eastern or Latin and that the school should allow it. How is this different?
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I do not agree with this.

When an Byzantine Catholic attends a Roman Mass they should kneel at the apporpriate times just as Roman Catholics who attend a Byzantine Divine Liturgy should stand.

Kneeling or standing for the Consecration is spelt out in the rubrics for the Eucharistic Liturgy. They tell the laity what to do. If you read the rubrics it does not say Roman Catholics should kneel and Byzantine Catholics should stand.

You do as you should do for the Mass/Divine Liturgy you are attending. If you do not wish to do so then you should not attend that Mass/Divine Liturgy.
 
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WanderAimlessly:
Giannawannabe:

I finally found the Monastery about a week ago (a couple of miles down the dirt road. It is about 30 miles from were I live. I eMailed them tonight to see if I can get a Spiritual Directory there so I may be attending stuff up there.

Interesting note. I see the Lutherans have their “Benedictine” monastery almost across the street. :ehh:
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I’m not sure, but somehow the 2 monateries are affiliated with one another. I know the Lutherans are very conservative/orthodox, and from what I gather wish to come back into full communion with the Catholic Church.

Hope to see you soon!!
 
People have been speaking about the possibility that, in other countries, the people stand during the Consecration at Latin Rite Masses.

Maybe someone could be so kind as to give us a specific example of an authorized priviledge in another country or religious order that allows the ordinary faithful to stand during the Consecration.

The only possible exception I can think of would be in asian countries, where the faithful might be allowed to stand. But even then, I’m sure they would be required to bow at the moment of Consecration.

In Manibus Dei,
  • Mike
 
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ByzCath:
I do not agree with this.

When an Byzantine Catholic attends a Roman Mass they should kneel at the apporpriate times just as Roman Catholics who attend a Byzantine Divine Liturgy should stand.

Kneeling or standing for the Consecration is spelt out in the rubrics for the Eucharistic Liturgy. They tell the laity what to do. If you read the rubrics it does not say Roman Catholics should kneel and Byzantine Catholics should stand.

You do as you should do for the Mass/Divine Liturgy you are attending. If you do not wish to do so then you should not attend that Mass/Divine Liturgy.
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David:

I would not go so far as to suggest that they should not attend the Mass or Divine Liturgy, but rather to simply underscore that as guests of another liturgy, you should WANT to do things correctly for two reasons:

  1. *]To show respect to your Catholic brothers & sisters that follow a different liturgical tradition then your own.
    *]To blend in and not make a spectacle of yourself.

    Consider this, if you were invited to a Japanese home for dinner, it would be expected that you remove your shoes inside the home. You would respect the custom of the home and it’s owners.

    The only point that might be useful to discuss would be Eastern rite children attending a latin-rite Mass. Perhaps the parents should notify the priest ahead of time (if it’s their first visit) so that he doesn’t refuse to give the communion to a young child or infant.

    Whenever I attend our local Ukrainian church, I always follow the customs and directions that are proper to this sui iuris Church.

    In fact, I am presently discussing arrangements to assist the priest regularly with the Divine Liturgy and splitting my time as a deacon between my latin-rite parish and this one.

    Peace to you all,

    Deacon Chris
 
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