Questions about Mass

[KathleenElsie]

it seems that a little oversight has been recognized here. this is the traditional forum, is it not? using the novus ordo (new order) service as a paragon, in my opinion, for the latin rite just does not seem to fit. unless it reads something other than what is named q & a’s dealing with the latin rite (extraordinary rite) (gregorian mass) (mass of piux v) (traditional mass) or whatever one would care to call it should be dealt with. i however, would thank those with opinions applicable to the n.o. as it is believed that they are doing what they think best.bands at mass, handshaking, socializing, etc. do not occur at mass. we are there to worship our creator. have a good year. (alih)

I wondered about the holding hands and clapping mentioned in the posts. The EF does not use these things. So what form of the Mass is being offered?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

I wondered about the holding hands and clapping mentioned in the posts. The EF does not use these things. So what form of the Mass is being offered?

Perhaps this thread would have fit better in the liturgy and sacraments forum, but in a sense it doesn’t matter. Whatever form of the Mass someone attends, there’s going to be a time of becoming comfortable with it and learning how to enter into it in a prayerful way. The OP talked about trying to pray in between the various elements of the Mass and didn’t understand that the entire Mass is prayer.

The other thing that strikes me about the OP’s post was this:

I regreted that during RCIA we focused on the doctrines of the Church etc but as far as the actual Mass goes I had no idea what to do, when, or how, or what I was techinically supposed to be doing in Mass.

In my RCIA program the catechists, candidates, and catechumens attend Mass together. The catechumens are dismissed with one of the catechists while everyone else stays. There’s no way someone could have gone through RCIA with us without being familiar with the Mass from having attended it as well as having talked about it in our classes.

 

[jblake]

Lisa44;:

What is essentially the difference between the Tridentine Mass and what we have today?

• The stage directions changed;
• The vernacular,rather than Latin is used;
• Some parts changed place;
• Some of the content changed;

Another question - why did they CHANGE the Mass after 1500 years?

The Tridentine Mass is just one of roughly a dozen masses that have been used over the last millenium. Every couple of decades, there are minor changes to it. Reasons for the changes reflεct a change in what shouldbe emphasized.

xan

jonathon

 

[jmcrae]

For all the personal guidance people have offerred, thanks very much!
I’m sure it will get easier when I’m familiar with everything and know why I’m doing what I’m doing.

I had no idea when I became a Catholic how much information and learning was involved. I guess that is 1700? years of tradition! Its quite amazing.

2,000 years, my dear - it was Jesus Himself who “invented” the Mass.

 

[Lisa44]

LOL! Try 2000 years!

(I laugh because you’re innocently repeating the Protestant fallacy that the Church started in the 4th century.)

I did think that the church started around the 3rd century? Probably I had heard this from Protestants. Interesting.

( I think I was thinking that when the bible or the liturgy was formalized that was the beginning of the Christian church?)

The Catholic viewpoint is what? It started with Peter? Or with Jesus?

 

[Lisa44]

A couple of other interesting facts:

1. You’ll never learn everything. That’s the amazing thing. I’m a 37 year old cradle Catholic and it never fails to amaze me how much depth there is to the church for those who want to explore it. A famous Catholic once said that Catholicism is simple enough for the most poor and uneducated to understand, and yet complex enough that the greatest scholars could study forever and never scratch the surface. More importantly, however, is that you shouldn’t stress about it. As long as you know the basics, everything else is just to help clarify the basics.
2. In addition to our own Ordinary Form of the Mass (the current Mass) and the Extraordinary Form of the Mass (The pre-Vatican II Mass), there are also a few other seldom-used versions of the Mass. For example, the Mozarabic form is used only in Toledo, Spain, and the Ambrosian form is used only in the Archdiocese of Milan. Some religious orders also have slightly different versions of the Mass. And if that isn’t enough, there is an entire Eastern branch of the church as well. It is largely made up of groups of former Orthodox Churches that accepted the authority of the pope and reunited with us several hundred years ago. There are 22 individual Eastern Catholic Churches (in addition to our one Latin Catholic Church), and they use their OWN versions of the Mass, which they call the Divine Liturgy. They also have their own traditions and canon law.

Wow.

 

[jmcrae]

I did think that the church started around the 3rd century? Probably I had heard this from Protestants. Interesting.

( I think I was thinking that when the bible or the liturgy was formalized that was the beginning of the Christian church?)

The Catholic viewpoint is what? It started with Peter? Or with Jesus?

Jesus established the Catholic Church and set up St. Peter as the first Pope.

 

[Lisa44]

it seems that a little oversight has been recognized here. this is the traditional forum, is it not? using the novus ordo (new order) service as a paragon, in my opinion, for the latin rite just does not seem to fit. unless it reads something other than what is named q & a’s dealing with the latin rite (extraordinary rite) (gregorian mass) (mass of piux v) (traditional mass) or whatever one would care to call it should be dealt with. i however, would thank those with opinions applicable to the n.o. as it is believed that they are doing what they think best.bands at mass, handshaking, socializing, etc. do not occur at mass. we are there to worship our creator. have a good year. (alih)

Do you mean handshaking, singing and clapping, bands and holding hands does not happen in the pre-“new order” masses?
(note to self: must find a pre-new order mass to attend.)

What is the n.o.?

 

[Lisa44]

I wondered about the holding hands and clapping mentioned in the posts. The EF does not use these things. So what form of the Mass is being offered?

What is the EF?

Are you asking me what form of Mass is being offered? I don’t know? Should I ask the Church that question?

 

[Lisa44]

The OP talked about trying to pray in between the various elements of the Mass and didn’t understand that the entire Mass is prayer.

I can’t say I understand the statement that the entire Mass is prayer. I thought prayer was a conversation between myself and God. (Even if no words are being said). I never thought of singing, holding hands…etc as prayer? Especially in light of the fact that I don’t like to sing or hold hands, therefore, how does one pray when one feels uncomfortable?

For instance in our Mass we sing the Lord’s prayer. This is a bit weird to me. When I’m saying the Lords prayer it feels full of intention, but when I’m singing it, suddenly it becomes kindof cheesy.

If I am really asking the Lord for my daily bread and to forgive my trespasses etc… would I seriously be singing it?

When Jesus said that prayer, can you really imagine him SINGING it to his Father in Heaven? I can’t.

And you’re right this topic should be in the liturgy section. I apologize.

 

[jmcrae]

What is the EF?

Are you asking me what form of Mass is being offered? I don’t know? Should I ask the Church that question?

The “NO” which stands for Novus Ordo, or New Order, is kind of an insulting way of referring to the Ordinary Form of the Mass. (Which shouldn’t have hand-holding, clapping, etc., but sometimes it does, for various different reasons.)

The EF is the Extraordinary Form; it takes place normally in Latin, and usually the priest prays the prayers by himself. Sometimes there is a “dialogue” version of this Mass, and the dialogue version also has Gregorian chant, but normally it takes place in total silence, with the priest praying quietly in Latin. I find it very calming, myself.

The priests and congregations of the EF are just as human as those of the OF. The fact that it’s in Latin covers the majority of mistakes that are made, but it doesn’t mean that they never happen, and they have been known to bring their babies, too, which can be distracting, sometimes.

 

[grandfather]

Do you mean handshaking, singing and clapping, bands and holding hands does not happen in the pre-“new order” masses?
(note to self: must find a pre-new order mass to attend.)

What is the n.o.?

There are no handholding and clapping in any of the other Catohlic rites, or liturgies. That behavior is peculiar to the new Mass that you attend.

In most or perhaps all other Catholic liturgies or Masses the prayers are sung, back and forth, between the priest and congregation. I have not been to all of them, but the ones I have been to are very beautiful. The Mass that was changed a few decades ago was that of the Latin Rite, or the Roman Catholic Mass. There are twenty some odd rites in the Catholic Church. None of them changed their liturgies after Vatican II.

There are a lot of people who prefer the old Mass. That is why the Pope gave permission recently for it to be allowed and made available for those who prefer it.

It sounds from your description of yourself that you might like it better also, but good luck finding one. Barring that, if you can not grow to appreciate the new Mass, you might find an Eastern Rite Catholic Church in your vicinity and want to see what goes on there. These liturgies are very ancient and some go back to the year 300 or so relatively unchanged.

One other thing you might do, since you are interested in the difference between the new and old Mass is get a missal of both and read them side by side. That would definitely give you a flavor for what got changed. Surely they are available on line. This would not be the same as the experience of both, but it still would allow you to contrast them.

 

[preV2tradcath]

The op or anyone else interested can click on the link below to find youtube videos of a traditional Latin Mass. Several from which to choice.
uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=traditional+latin+mass&search_type=&aq=0&oq=Traditional+Lat

Hope this helps.

 

[grandfather]

The “NO” which stands for Novus Ordo, or New Order, is kind of an insulting way of referring to the Ordinary Form of the Mass. (Which shouldn’t have hand-holding, clapping, etc., but sometimes it does, for various different reasons.)

The EF is the Extraordinary Form; it takes place normally in Latin, and usually the priest prays the prayers by himself. Sometimes there is a “dialogue” version of this Mass, and the dialogue version also has Gregorian chant, but normally it takes place in total silence, with the priest praying quietly in Latin. I find it very calming, myself.

The priests and congregations of the EF are just as human as those of the OF. The fact that it’s in Latin covers the majority of mistakes that are made, but it doesn’t mean that they never happen, and they have been known to bring their babies, too, which can be distracting, sometimes.

In Latin the term for the official Mass of the Latin Rite Church is Ordo Missae, Order of Mass. When the Mass was changed a few decades back it was naturally called the novus (new) ordo (order) Missae (Mass).

No one seemed to mind the usage of terms at first. After the changes everyone was excited about changes and doing things differently. Everything old was jettisoned. After some time people starting missing what was old and things were not going so well so a longing or nostalgia for the old days developed among some people. Other people wanted to press forward with “the changes”.

After twenty or so years went by, when a longinf for tradition came back, some people took offense at calling the Mass the new order of Mass, N.O., or new order, because “new” was seen as a derogatory term or label.

Now we have some new terminology to deal with. We have the OF, or Ordinary Form, which is the new(er) Mass, and the EF Extraordinary Form, the traditional Mass.

Give it a little time and those terms will also offend someone, because “extraordinary”, after all, connotes better.

 

[Lisa44]

The op or anyone else interested can click on the link below to find youtube videos of a traditional Latin Mass. Several from which to choice.
uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=traditional+latin+mass&search_type=&aq=0&oq=Traditional+Lat

Hope this helps.

Thank you!!
I watched the Tridentine Latin Mass (Last Sunday after Pentecost)

If that music is not inspired by the Holy Spirit then I don’t know what is?

There are no words that can describe that singing.

It makes me lament the present state of Masses? Why are we singing these ding-a-ling songs (and truely they are if compared to gregorian chants) ??? When we could be hearing the most heavenly singing on earth?

Lord, I do not understand. I really don’t. I don’t get it?
I pray the Lord forgives us for the state of the music in Masses today.
I pray that everyone can be moved closer to God during Mass.

I pray that I may experience this type of Mass. For it IS closer to God and maybe that is just me. Can anyone say they prefer silly songs and holding hands to the formality and GRACE of traditional Mass and Gregorian chants?

I am from another time period because I truely don’t understand the modern age. To me, men is getting more and more stupid. Evolution is a joke. Are you kidding me? How could we end up with this if we are evolving? You must be joking.

I rant… forgive me.

 

[grandfather]

I rant… forgive me.

You are funny.

The parish I attend regularly on Sundays is Eastern Catholic. Yesterday I was visiting my daughter and attended her RC parish in a nearby city.

The priest spoke and prayed in a tone that I could only describe as baby talk. He sounded like a mother speaking to a two year old. Aren’t we good little boys and girls syrupy sing song. It was revolting. Then in his homily in the same cooing tone he talked about political controversy and how we can all have our own points of view on the moral issues we face and take to the voting booth. There were about two hundred and fifty people there and twenty extraordinary eucharistic ministers who stationed themselves all over the place. The whole thing was a circus. I did manage to withdraw inwardly and pray some, but the band made it difficult for most of the Mass. There was a great round of applause for something I did not quite understand. Something will change. This is a failed experiment.

 

[peary]

I did think that the church started around the 3rd century? Probably I had heard this from Protestants. Interesting.

( I think I was thinking that when the bible or the liturgy was formalized that was the beginning of the Christian church?)

The Catholic viewpoint is what? It started with Peter? Or with Jesus?

Catholics consider the Feast of Pentecost as the ‘birth’ day of the Church. Read ACTS.

 

[peary]

You are funny.

The parish I attend regularly on Sundays is Eastern Catholic. Yesterday I was visiting my daughter and attended her RC parish in a nearby city.

The priest spoke and prayed in a tone that I could only describe as baby talk. He sounded like a mother speaking to a two year old. Aren’t we good little boys and girls syrupy sing song. It was revolting. Then in his homily in the same cooing tone he talked about political controversy and how we can all have our own points of view on the moral issues we face and take to the voting booth. There were about two hundred and fifty people there and twenty extraordinary eucharistic ministers who stationed themselves all over the place. The whole thing was a circus. I did manage to withdraw inwardly and pray some, but the band made it difficult for most of the Mass. There was a great round of applause for something I did not quite understand. Something will change. This is a failed experiment.

It also sounds like a failed priesthood. The pastor better get his act together or he’ll be losing his vocation.

 

[Lisa44]

The op or anyone else interested can click on the link below to find youtube videos of a traditional Latin Mass. Several from which to choice.
uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=traditional+latin+mass&search_type=&aq=0&oq=Traditional+Lat

Hope this helps.

Thank you!!
I watched the Tridentine Latin Mass (Last Sunday after Pentecost)

If that music is not inspired by the Holy Spirit then I don’t know what is?

There are no words that can describe that singing.

It makes me lament the present state of Masses? Why are we singing these ding-a-ling songs (and truely they are if compared to gregorian chants) ??? When we could be hearing the most heavenly singing on earth?

Lord, I do not understand. I really don’t. I don’t get it?
I pray the Lord forgives us for the state of the music in Masses today.
I pray that everyone can be moved closer to God during Mass.

I pray that I may experience this type of Mass. For it IS closer to God and maybe that is just me. Can anyone say they prefer silly songs and holding hands to the formality and GRACE of traditional Mass and Gregorian chants?

I am from another time period because I truely don’t understand the modern age. To me, men is getting more and more stupid. Evolution is a joke. Are you kidding me? How could we end up with this if we are evolving? You must be joking.

I rant… forgive me.

 

[Lisa44]

Sorry for the double post, my webpage this morning is acting strangly.