Questions about Mass

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grandfather said:
You are funny.

The parish I attend regularly on Sundays is Eastern Catholic. Yesterday I was visiting my daughter and attended her RC parish in a nearby city.

The priest spoke and prayed in a tone that I could only describe as baby talk. He sounded like a mother speaking to a two year old. Aren’t we good little boys and girls syrupy sing song. It was revolting. Then in his homily in the same cooing tone he talked about political controversy and how we can all have our own points of view on the moral issues we face and take to the voting booth. There were about two hundred and fifty people there and twenty extraordinary eucharistic ministers who stationed themselves all over the place. The whole thing was a circus. I did manage to withdraw inwardly and pray some, but the band made it difficult for most of the Mass. There was a great round of applause for something I did not quite understand. Something will change. This is a failed experiment.
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That does sound rather annoying. One thing I noticed at the Mass I attend is that the Priest makes a lot of jokes. There is nothing wrong with jokes, and they are funny jokes too, however, when I watched the video clip of the Latin Mass I couldn’t help but notice a stark contrast in tone. Is Mass the time and place for jokes?

Oh well, I’m very glad I asked these questions because now I’m exploring different types of liturgies/Mass and I realize that the Mass I experience here is probably not typical, thankfully.

It feels like a Protestant church to be totally frank, or what I remember of a protestant church the few times i have attended.

Just a lot of sillyness and a casual air. Poorly written songs and badly sung, socializing and holding hands, a Priest who seems more like a ‘buddy’ than a Priest.
 
Lisa44 said:
That does sound rather annoying. One thing I noticed at the Mass I attend is that the Priest makes a lot of jokes. There is nothing wrong with jokes, and they are funny jokes too, however, when I watched the video clip of the Latin Mass I couldn’t help but notice a stark contrast in tone. Is Mass the time and place for jokes?

Oh well, I’m very glad I asked these questions because now I’m exploring different types of liturgies/Mass and I realize that the Mass I experience here is probably not typical, thankfully.

It feels like a Protestant church to be totally frank, or what I remember of a protestant church the few times i have attended.

Just a lot of sillyness and a casual air. Poorly written songs and badly sung, socializing and holding hands, a Priest who seems more like a ‘buddy’ than a Priest.
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The modern Mass has become entertainment. It is something like a show that is put on for the people. The priest has become the MC. He faces us and the band is up on the altar to do their thing. Throw in the jokes and comedy and we have great vaudeville. The announcer/master of ceremoinies, the comedy and the music. It keeps them coming back for more.

What is diminished or lost is the awareness that we are offering sacrifice, a sacrificial victim, God to God, as a propitiation for our sins.

Those who don’t appreciate the new Mass will go looking for alternatives. There does seem to be a growing number. That does not make them bad, Catohlics, or disobedient. They believe they are not getting what they need from worship. Others are perfectly happy with the new form and they can not understand why others have trouble with it.

The new Mass was imposed by Rome. It was forced on the people and priests. A lot of older people could not make the change. The attitude towards them was severe. If you want to not go to the new Mass you will have to leave the Church. There was no provision made for them. After the imposition of the new Mass, Mass attendance dropped significantly and vocations dried up. The quality of candidates for the priesthood declined. A generation later we suffered the scandals. There is no way to connect cause and effect to any of this, but that does not mean there is no connection.

The party line now is the old Mass was never abrogated, whatever abrogated means. Any priest who said the old Mass was punished. If he refused to make the change he went into retirement or lost his incardination.
 
grandfather said:
A generation later we suffered the scandals. There is no way to connect cause and effect to any of this, but that does not mean there is no connection.
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Uh - the priests who were found out in the recent scandals were committing their crimes during the 1940s and 1950s, which was before the “new” Mass came into place. But you knew that. 😉
 
Lisa44 said:
I can’t say I understand the statement that the entire Mass is prayer. I thought prayer was a conversation between myself and God. (Even if no words are being said).
For instance in our Mass we sing the Lord’s prayer. This is a bit weird to me. When I’m saying the Lords prayer it feels full of intention, but when I’m singing it, suddenly it becomes kindof cheesy.

And you’re right this topic should be in the liturgy section. I apologize.
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I have two comments: First, if I am not mistaken the earliest Mass in the Christian Communities was sung. That included the scripture readings.

Second in the Novus Ordo, I can’t remember much of the EF from the days of my youth (till I was mid thirties), but when we pray aloud as a congregation we stand, when we sing depending on the part of the Mass we may be standing, sitting, or kneeling, when the priest prays during the Eucharistic part of the Mass we kneel. So I guess to some extent the posture depends on our manner of participation and also on the Eucharistic presence of Our Lord on the altar. In short we kneel in worship.

I do remember when we had only the Tridentine Mass that there were three common forms; low Mass (no singing), High Mass (with singing, usually the choir and priest, but not the congregation), and the Solemn High Mass with Sub-deacon, Deacon, and Priest (lots of singing, praying, incense, the whole ten yards.). For a time there was a “dialogue Mass” where the congregation did respond to the prayers of the priest. Actually over the five hundred years since the Council of Trent there were continuous small changes in the Tridentine Mass, but nothing like the discontinuity between the Tridentine and the Novus Ordo.
 
jmcrae said:
Uh - the priests who were found out in the recent scandals were committing their crimes during the 1940s and 1950s, which was before the “new” Mass came into place. But you knew that. 😉
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That is simply untrue. Men who were priests in the 40s and 50s are almost all dead and their victims would be senior citizens. The victims coming forward are young people with a few in their
40s. Some of the increase in these crimes began in the 70s, but the bulk of them were in the 80s and 90s.
 
grandfather said:
That is simply untrue. Men who were priests in the 40s and 50s are almost all dead and their victims would be senior citizens. The victims coming forward are young people with a few in their
40s. Some of the increase in these crimes began in the 70s, but the bulk of them were in the 80s and 90s.
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The reason they weren’t going through the courts automatically (as modern-day cases would) was because at the time they were committed, there was no law against them, so we are definitely talking pre-1968 here.
 
jmcrae said:
The reason they weren’t going through the courts automatically (as modern-day cases would) was because at the time they were committed, there was no law against them, so we are definitely talking pre-1968 here.
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I am sorry, but I have no idea what you meant. Are you saying that there was no law against pedophilia or statutory rape until recently? Are you saying there were many crimes that went unreported in the 40s and 50s? Are you saying that the majority of the cases that came forward recently were not from the 70s, 80s, and 90s, but the 40s and 50s.
 
grandfather said:
There are no handholding and clapping in any of the other Catohlic rites, or liturgies. That behavior is peculiar to the new Mass that you attend.

I’ve got news for you - missionaries, wherever they went in different cultures, allowed the use of such things as handholding and clapping, dancing, as well as indigenous instruments during the Mass when celebrated prior to Vatican II. And this was allowed with permission from the bishops.

In most or perhaps all other Catholic liturgies or Masses the prayers are sung, back and forth, between the priest and congregation. I have not been to all of them, but the ones I have been to are very beautiful. The Mass that was changed a few decades ago was that of the Latin Rite, or the Roman Catholic Mass. There are twenty some odd rites in the Catholic Church. None of them changed their liturgies after Vatican II.

Maronite, Melkite, and Byzantine rites, from my experience, have all adopted the altar and priests facing the people.
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grandfather said:
I am sorry, but I have no idea what you meant. Are you saying that there was no law against pedophilia or statutory rape until recently?
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Nothing with teeth, no. It was wink’n’nudge; there were no serious penalties.
Are you saying that the majority of the cases that came forward recently were not from the 70s, 80s, and 90s, but the 40s and 50s.
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Most of them were very old cases, yes - from the time of the Latin Mass. So, your contention that the Pauline Mass had some kind of mental/emotional effect on priests that turned them into pedophiles, is not supported.
 
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peary:
My parish is Ukrainian Catholic. I attend Mass at Byzantine Catholic parishes regularly. No changes have been made to Divine Liturgy.

Can you cite references from any historical document that prior to the new Mass the rubrics were not followed anywhere in the world and the handholding happy clappy practices of this day took place?
 
The Latin Mass is a much more appropriate environment for prayer. I will no longer attend the Mass of Paul VI… or the “Ordinary Form” for the very reasons you stated.

If you can find a Latin Mass otherwise known as the “Extraordinary Form” you owe it to yourself to discover this ancient treasure.👍
 
jmcrae said:
What is nonsense is linking the form of the Mass to the character of our priests. Everything else is off-topic.
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What I need to be faithful to the vows I made to my wife and God is grace. I went to Church and before witnesses swore an oath to be faithful to a woman for the rest of my life. I have been married for many years more than I was single. What I need to tell the truth and not lie in business or daily life is grace. What I need to be sober is grace. Grace comes from God and we obtain it by worship.

What we all need to live lives of virtue is grace. What a priest needs to be faithful to his vows is grace. When we see an epidemic of divorce we can say that grace is lacking. When we see an epidemic in society of drug addiction, abortion, violent crime, and any other evil we can conclude that grace is lacking.

Is God withholding grace from us? Does He want us to suffer enslaved to sin? He does not. Then why is grace lacking?

Grace comes from God and we obtain it by worshipping God.

I grew up in NYC, the big bad apple. Let me give you a glimpse of what life was like in the 50s. I was twelve years old and the headlines in the NY papers screamed Joe DiMaggio and Marilyn Monroe divorce. Remember I was a city kid. I went in the house where my mother was cooking dinner and I asked her, “Mom, what is divorce”? She answered trying to protect my 12 year old innocence, “You don’t have to think about that”. She did not want me to know divorce existed. “But Mom Joe D and Marilyn divorced. What is that”? “That is when you are married and then you are not married”. I was stumped. “Mom, How can you do that”? She yelled at me. “I told you you don’t have to worry about that. Divorce is for crazy people in Hollywood”. End of discussion.

On Saturday afternoon kids were all over the streets, playing ball and hanging out. Several would be going one way and several another and shout across the street, where are you going. “We are going to confession, do you want to come”?

Teenage girls rode the buses and subways at night to go to a game, or dance, or movie, with never a thought for their safety.

In 1959 there were 49 murders in NYC. In 1989 with the population the same there were 1800.

In 1960 3% of births in city hospitals were to unwed mothers. In 1990 it was 75%, but half of tyhose conceived were aborted.

The wheels have fallen off. Our society is off the rails. It has happened in one generation. Grace has diminished. Why? Hint. Grace comes from worship.

If priests are unable to keep their vows it is due to a lack of grace. Grace comes from woship.

Worship changed. It was turned upside down and inside out. We are reaping the results.
 
Hello to everyone. I’ve been following this thread and had a question (I hope it’s ok to bring this up here).

How can an infallible Church Council decree something that is not sufficient, or wrong, or unholy, or however you want to put it, in regards to the “N.O.” Mass? I’m not taking sides here, as I’m hoping to go to a TLM this Sunday, but this question is stuck in my head and I can’t seem to find an answer. Thanks!
 
northstar3 said:
Hello to everyone. I’ve been following this thread and had a question (I hope it’s ok to bring this up here).

How can an infallible Church Council decree something that is not sufficient, or wrong, or unholy, or however you want to put it, in regards to the “N.O.” Mass? I’m not taking sides here, as I’m hoping to go to a TLM this Sunday, but this question is stuck in my head and I can’t seem to find an answer. Thanks!
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The Council had nothing to do with the new Mass. The Council was ended long before the new Mass was concocted or promulgated. The main architect of the new Mass was Anabelle Bugnini and it was approved and imposed by Paul VI.

Form is important. Here is an example that might help that does not have to do with the Mass. Form matters to us, because one form impacts us differently from another.

I have been to many baptisms. They are all very nice ceremonies. After all is said and done the essence of it all is a baby has been baptized. In the end all that is needed is water, intent and a short prayer. “I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”. This makes the sacrament valid. Nothing else is needed.

At one point I went to a baptism in an Eastern Rite Catholic Church. The ceremony or form is very different. It begins with the baby, parents and godparents coming into the back of the Church with the priest. The congregation is in the Church. The first part is an exorcism. The first time I saw this my hair stood on end. I am not kidding. The priest chants and tells the devil with all his filthy lies and deceits to get away from this baby who is a child of God. That is only the beginning, but you know that what is taking place is being taken seriously. Then the baptismal party enters the Church and stands before the iconostasis and font. The baby receives three sacraments, Baptism, Holy Communion, and Chrismation or Confirmation. When it is over the priest takes the baby through the royal doors and lays it on the altar in front of the tabernacle and prays final prayers. Then he takes the baby and raises the baby over his head for a last prayer, comes out to the congregation and lays the baby on the floor at the foot of the altar. He goes back through the royal doors and closes them. The Church is silent and the godfather picks up the baby and gives it to the parents. The ceremony is lengthier than the RC ceremony.

I saw an adult baptism once in this Church. The young man being baptized was warned by the priest during the ceremony that what he was doing was very serious matter and he needed to realize it. God had called him to this moment and if he should turn away from the grace he was being given he would offend God and suffer spiritual loss.

In the end we have a baptized person, no matter the form. But the form has an impact on us. It is a reminder to us of divine things. It effects us.

Worship is supposed to lift us to God. It elevates us. How we do it is important. The prayers, vestments, stained glass, marble, ceilings, architecture, frescoes, music, incense, all matter. How we go about it matters.

All we need is a chalice, bread, wine and a priest. He can confect the Eucharist with a couple of sentences, but the experience for us is vastly different.

It can be mundane, stripped bare, or glorious. The form of worship can dispose us to receive grace, or to sit in the pew clueless to what is going on around us, or something in between.
 
Thanks for your wise words Grandfather.

You’ve said it all quite nicely.
 
Yes indeed, very well said, thank you. I hadn’t realized the changes to the Mass didn’t happen during Council, I will look to read more about this, thank you.
 
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