Questions About Mass

[rosinski]

I’m a cradle Catholic just starting to get back into the faith. It’s been about 9 years since we attended Mass regularly, and we’ve been going about two months now.

The first thing I noticed is no missals. I remember most of the Mass, but not all of it. There is also no posts or signs that indicate what hymns will be sung at what time (annoying, but not really part of these questions).

Therefore, I picked up a copy of Catholic Publishing Co.'s Saint Joseph Sunday Missal (No. 820/09, ISBN 978-0-89942-820-8). There are several differences:

1. The priest not does enter from the back of the Church during the Entrance. He is sitting at the side of the altar, stands up, and starts the Mass.
2. None of the Penitential Rites said are in this Missal.
3. The Gloria is not said or sung. It goes from the Penitential Rite/Kyrie (these have always been combined at this Church) to the Opening Prayer.
4. None of the Opening Prayers said are in this Missal.
5. None of the Responsorial Psalms said are in this Missal.
6. The “Blessed be God for ever” response of the Preparation of the Bread and Wine is never said.
7. Virtually no one kneels during the Eucharistic Prayer. Most people remain standing, although there is about 10% that kneels. The Missal says to kneel. Which should be done?
8. Everyone remains standing during Communion and again, no one kneels. Should we stand, kneel, or sit? I’m used to kneeling, getting Communion, kneeling when you come back, and then sitting when the Blessed Sacrament is put away.
9. None of the Communion Antiphons or Prayers After Communion said are in this Missal.
10. None of the Concluding Rite Blessings said are in this Missal.
11. The Dismissal is not said.

I purchased this Missal new from a local Catholic store. It has a copyright date of 1999.

My other questions are:

• Is this Missal out-of-date even though it was purchased new?
• Is there that much latitude in the Mass that local bishops or priests can deviate?
• Is the local priest not following the Mass correctly?

Thanks for any answers.

Rick

 

[PJM]

I’m a cradle Catholic just starting to get back into the faith. It’s been about 9 years since we attended Mass regularly, and we’ve been going about two months now.

The first thing I noticed is no missals. I remember most of the Mass, but not all of it. There is also no posts or signs that indicate what hymns will be sung at what time (annoying, but not really part of these questions).

Therefore, I picked up a copy of Catholic Publishing Co.'s Saint Joseph Sunday Missal (No. 820/09, ISBN 978-0-89942-820-8). There are several differences:

1. The priest not does enter from the back of the Church during the Entrance. He is sitting at the side of the altar, stands up, and starts the Mass.
2. None of the Penitential Rites said are in this Missal.
3. The Gloria is not said or sung. It goes from the Penitential Rite/Kyrie (these have always been combined at this Church) to the Opening Prayer.
4. None of the Opening Prayers said are in this Missal.
5. None of the Responsorial Psalms said are in this Missal.
6. The “Blessed be God for ever” response of the Preparation of the Bread and Wine is never said.
7. Virtually no one kneels during the Eucharistic Prayer. Most people remain standing, although there is about 10% that kneels. The Missal says to kneel. Which should be done?
8. Everyone remains standing during Communion and again, no one kneels. Should we stand, kneel, or sit? I’m used to kneeling, getting Communion, kneeling when you come back, and then sitting when the Blessed Sacrament is put away.
9. None of the Communion Antiphons or Prayers After Communion said are in this Missal.
10. None of the Concluding Rite Blessings said are in this Missal.
11. The Dismissal is not said.

I purchased this Missal new from a local Catholic store. It has a copyright date of 1999.

My other questions are:

• Is this Missal out-of-date even though it was purchased new?
• Is there that much latitude in the Mass that local bishops or priests can deviate?
• Is the local priest not following the Mass correctly?

Thanks for any answers.

Rick

**Wecome Home! We missed you.

I suggest you find a Church that is more in touch with what Rome and even the American Bishops prescribe. Sounds like your priest may be ??? one of those doing his own version of what he thinks the Mass is to be. If so, he’s wrong!**

Love and prayers, Pat

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

I would definitely think this is a cause for concern. Approach the priest and show him the book that you have. Tell him your concerns (this would be the best first course of action). If he doesn’t seem concerned about it or interested in your opinion, I think it would be appropriate to take it to the Bishop. The Catholic Book Publisher is a good, trustworthy publisher, IMHO. The priests are not supposed to make up the liturgy or play around with it! It is there for a reason! Hopefully, someone else can give a much more in depth answer, but I think the book is right and the priest is doing things his own way.

 

[rosinski]

1. None of the Penitential Rites said are in this Missal.
2. None of the Opening Prayers said are in this Missal.
3. None of the Responsorial Psalms said are in this Missal.
4. None of the Communion Antiphons or Prayers After Communion said are in this Missal.
5. None of the Concluding Rite Blessings said are in this Missal.

Thanks for the responses so far.

I wanted to clarify the above four items. The Penitential Rites, Opening Prayers, Prayer After Communion, and Concluding Rite Blessings ARE said. It’s just the ones in this Missal are not.

 

[Corki]

I’m a cradle Catholic just starting to get back into the faith. It’s been about 9 years since we attended Mass regularly, and we’ve been going about two months now.

The first thing I noticed is no missals. I remember most of the Mass, but not all of it. There is also no posts or signs that indicate what hymns will be sung at what time (annoying, but not really part of these questions).

Therefore, I picked up a copy of Catholic Publishing Co.'s Saint Joseph Sunday Missal (No. 820/09, ISBN 978-0-89942-820-8). There are several differences:

1. The priest not does enter from the back of the Church during the Entrance. He is sitting at the side of the altar, stands up, and starts the Mass. The procession from the back is optional although its usual, especially in the US. I wouldn’t worry about this one, it may just be a style issue or the priest might have mobility issues.
2. None of the Penitential Rites said are in this Missal. There are three versions but one of them allows petitions that are similar to the ones in the missal.
   Option C says:

Option C: [The following **or other invocations

1. The Gloria is not said or sung. It goes from the Penitential Rite/Kyrie (these have always been combined at this Church) to the Opening Prayer. We don’t do the Gloria during Lent. That covers about one month of Sunday Masses. If it was also ommited on Sundays outside of Lent, that’s a problem.
2. None of the Opening Prayers said are in this Missal. That is the Collect. There are several options for each Sunday but it must be one of the approved prayers.
3. None of the Responsorial Psalms said are in this Missal. There are seasonal responsorial psalms that are allowed. I am always thrown by these because our missals don’t list them.
4. The “Blessed be God for ever” response of the Preparation of the Bread and Wine is never said. If there is singing of an offertory hymn, this prayer is usually said silently by the priest.
5. Virtually no one kneels during the Eucharistic Prayer. Most people remain standing, although there is about 10% that kneels. The Missal says to kneel. Which should be done? In the US, we are to kneel from the end of the Holy, Holy, Holy until after the great Amen.
6. Everyone remains standing during Communion and again, no one kneels. Should we stand, kneel, or sit? I’m used to kneeling, getting Communion, kneeling when you come back, and then sitting when the Blessed Sacrament is put away. The Vatican has said it is up to you which posture you chose after communion.
7. None of the Communion Antiphons or Prayers After Communion said are in this Missal. Same as #4
8. None of the Concluding Rite Blessings said are in this Missal. same as #4
9. The Dismissal is not said. I am not sure what you mean. The dismissal is usually part of the Concluding Rite. Do you mean you get a blessing and then Mass is over without any “Go in peace…” That would be a problem.

I purchased this Missal new from a local Catholic store. It has a copyright date of 1999.

My other questions are:

• Is this Missal out-of-date even though it was purchased new?
• Is there that much latitude in the Mass that local bishops or priests can deviate?
• Is the local priest not following the Mass correctly?

Thanks for any answers.

Rick

Now, while there is quite a lot of choices and options for the priest to use for many of the prayers, he is supposed to chose from the approved options - not make up something different. That being said, I think the newest version of the GIRM is 2002 so there may have been changes to some of the prayers after 1999. However, it seems that this particular parish might be taking too many liberties. The best thing to do would be to ask the priest. Explain that you have been visiting and trying to follow along but need help matching things up. If he points you to a missal with newer approved prayers, that’s great. If he says something about “local adaptations” or the ability to be creative or spontaneous, I would say you might want to look for a parish that follows the Mass a bit more closely.

Welcome back and sorry it has been confusing for you.

 

[bkovacs]

**Wecome Home! We missed you.

I suggest you find a Church that is more in touch with what Rome and even the American Bishops prescribe. Sounds like your priest may be ??? one of those doing his own version of what he thinks the Mass is to be. If so, he’s wrong!**

Love and prayers, Pat

I suggest you find a Church that is more in touch with what the Pope prescribes. I don’t trust American Bishops. And I agree, with the NO Mass, the Missal you can purchase is usually never followed correctly. I believe this is do to the over amount of options allowed in the NO Mass. Not a problem with an Eastern Liturgy, or EF (Tridentine) Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

First of all, welcome back home.

Regarding the Gloria, as others have indicated, it is not recited/sung during Lentj (unless the Church is celebrating the Solemnity of St. Joseph-last week or the Solemnity of the Annunciation-this week). You say that you have been going to Mass for two months; that would place you before Lent, when the Gloria should be recited/sung.

As others have also indicated, there are several options for the Penitential Rite. Along with the Confiteor (I confess), there are two other options. For example, Lord Jesus, you are Word made Flesh. Lord, have mercy. Lord Jesus, you are Son of God and Son of Mary. Christ have mercy. Lord, you are Mighty God and Prince of Peace. Lord have mercy. There are several versions of option 2 (which should match up in your missal and in the Roman Missal that the priest uses). The third one is what was outlined in a previous post.

Regarding the Collect, there are only two options per Sunday, not several. The priest has the option to do one or the other, but, not to invent his own.

This is what Redemptionis Sacramentum, the document of the Church addressing liturgical abuse, notes:

[59.] The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy.

Regarding the Responsorial Psalm, there are season options, but, even these must be the approved versions.

Concerning the Eucharistic Prayer, here is what the General Instruction of the Roman Missal has to say:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

Regarding the posture of the people after Communion, this is the understanding of the Church, as interpreted by the Prefect Emeritus for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Francis Cardinal Arinze:

There is no rule from Rome that everybody must stand during Holy Communion. There is no such rule from Rome. So, after people have received Communion, they can stand, they can kneel, they can sit. But a bishop in his diocese or bishops in a country could say that they recommend standing or kneeling. They could. It is not a law from Rome. They could – but not impose it. Perhaps they could propose. But those who want to sit or kneel or stand should be left reasonable freedom.

Now, regarding this issue:

Originally posted by Corki:
I think the newest version of the GIRM is 2002 so there may have been changes to some of the prayers after 1999.

I believe that there might be some confusion. The GIRM is what its name means, the instructional document for the Roman Missal. It had nothing to do with the changing of the prayers. It tells the celebrant and the people how they are supposed to do things. The Roman Missal tells us what to say and what to do. Right now, the Roman Missal is being revised so that the translation will match up to what the original Latin version says.

 

[LilyM]

I second the recommendation to ask the priest about your concerns and see if he’s using a newer approved Missal for the prayers or just being ‘spontaneous’.

In regard the Gloria, it is possible that you’d not have heard it at all if you started attending Mass after Ash Wednesday.

 

[benedictgal]

I second the recommendation to ask the priest about your concerns and see if he’s using a newer approved Missal for the prayers or just being ‘spontaneous’.

In regard the Gloria, it is possible that you’d not have heard it at all if you started attending Mass after Ash Wednesday.

However, if he is using the new translation, that is not licit because they werer released for instructinal purposes only and for musicians to start working on new Mass settings using the revised texts. Thus, he is bound to use the current Roman Missal and not the new translation. When Francis Cardinal Arinze released the new prayers, it was contingent on the fact that they could not be used during the Mass. Unfortunately, a couple of African conferences jumped the gun and started using them; however, Rome put the breaks on it. The entire Roman Missal has to be approved by all of the ICEL national conferences before it can be used.

Back in December, I went to Mass at another parish. I happened to stumble on their Our Lady of Guadalupe Novena/parish mission. The visiting priest was very spontaneous, making up his own Collect (opening prayer). It was his own creation because it did not resemble anything in the official texts and it was very specifically geared towards his homily and the mission. He also had the people reciting it along with him, repeating the words after him. I pointed out to him after Mass that this was not licit and he told me that there was room for flexibility. I told him that since we were in Advent, there is little to no flexibility and that Redemptionis Sacramentum prohibited priests from inventing their own prayers. Oddly enough, I ran into the bishop two days later and told him what happened. He was none too pleased. The parish does have a history of liturgical aberrations.

Regarding the Gloria, the only two occurances that I can think of where you could hear it during Lent would be for the Solemnity of St. Joseph (last week) and the Solemnity of the Annunciation (this week–and, we genuflect at “by the power of the Holy Spirit…”). But, as you noted, other than those two instances, it should not be done. The next time we will hear the Gloria will be at the Chrism Mass and the Evening Mass of the Lord’s Supper.