Questions about Paradise

[Eddy_NZ]

I have been trying to learn more about “Paradise” and what it actually means. Consequently, few questions came across my mind that I could not find clear answers to.

1. What is the Jewish understanding of Paradise? Is it Sheol or Heaven (Beatific vision) or something else?
2. Was Heaven (beatific vision) closed for the righteous until the Cross or until the Resurrection?
3. After the death on the cross, our blessed Lord went to “Prison” (1 Peter 3:19) and the Apostle’s Creed confesses “He descended to the dead (Hades)”. I understand the Catholic teaching define Prison as Bosom of Abraham or Sheol or Adobe of the Dead. Do other Apostolic Churches share that belief or have a different opinion?
4. The good thief died after the death of our blessed Lord but before His resurrection. The Lord told him in Luke 23: 43 “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise” and told St Mary Magdalena on Easter Sunday morning in John 20: 17 “do not hold on to me, because I have not ascended to the Father”. Does it mean our blessed Lord did not ascend to Heaven i.e. the beatific vision at that time? Where did our blessed Lord take the good thief to, Sheol or Heaven (beatific vision) or somewhere else? If to Sheol, then how can the above be reconciled with 2 Cor 12: 4 “was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat”?
5. My understanding, the coptic orthodox church (non Chalcedonian church) deny individual judgement and believe in a waiting place after death for the second coming of the Lord, and use the word “Paradise” in Luke 23: 43 as a scriptural evidence of this idea. Individual judgement can be easily proven by several scriptural evidence like 2 Cor 5:8, Philippians 1:23 and Hebrew 12: 22-24. How can we refute this idea of a waiting place after death?
   Thank you for clarifying things to me.

 

[jcrichton]

I have been trying to learn more about “Paradise” and what it actually means. Consequently, few questions came across my mind that I could not find clear answers to.

Hi, Eddy!

…this is a very complex issue due to the intertwining of the elements and the various interpretations… I find that the best term definition (what it actually means) comes from one particular Scriptural passage which seems to stand alone:

7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

(Apocalypse 2:7)
…by Scriptural definition Paradise belongs to God and it is where He Keeps the Tree of Life (this, by necessity, brings us to Creation and Adan and Eve… and the ancient serpent).

1. What is the Jewish understanding of Paradise? Is it Sheol or Heaven (Beatific vision) or something else?

…for the Jewish understanding you must direct the question to a rabbi or a Jewish religious site.

…as I understand it, Sheol is a place of darkness where both the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead dwell, each in their respective locale, awaiting Judgment Day.

1. Was Heaven (beatific vision) closed for the righteous until the Cross or until the Resurrection?

…this query seems to want to p(name removed by moderator)oint when “beatific vision” is allowed… man’s perspective cannot be used to define God’s Omnipotence, Mercy or Will; remember Scriptures are only a means of Communication from the Divine to the corporeal–they are never meant to Define or Limit God’s Attributes and Will.

Generally, beatific vision would follow the Resurrection; yet, God is not limited to a specific time and place (Genesis 5:24; 2 Kings 2; St. Matthew 17:1-8).

1. After the death on the cross, our blessed Lord went to “Prison” (1 Peter 3:19) and the Apostle’s Creed confesses “He descended to the dead (Hades)”. I understand the Catholic teaching define Prison as Bosom of Abraham or Sheol or Adobe of the Dead. Do other Apostolic Churches share that belief or have a different opinion?

Yes, the definition of hell is more so that of hades or Sheol–though I would venture that the righteous dead would have no need for Conversion… it would seem to me that Jesus would be reaching those who were spiritual prisoners because they were not able to understand what God demanded of man since the Hour had not arrived for the Lamb of God; further, through Scriptural demonstration the righteous dead were in deed a very minute number (Abraham and Sodom and Gomorrah; Noah’s ark…).

1. The good thief died after the death of our blessed Lord but before His resurrection. The Lord told him in Luke 23: 43 “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise” and told St Mary Magdalena on Easter Sunday morning in John 20: 17 “do not hold on to me, because I have not ascended to the Father”. Does it mean our blessed Lord did not ascend to Heaven i.e. the beatific vision at that time? Where did our blessed Lord take the good thief to, Sheol or Heaven (beatific vision) or somewhere else? If to Sheol, then how can the above be reconciled with 2 Cor 12: 4 “was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat”?

…this is a compounded on top of compounded query–I concur… In order to better understand this involved conundrum (your query) we must determine: ‘where’s Paradise?’

…well Apocalypse 2:7 offered a huge clue: Paradise is wherever the Tree of Life is found:

1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal,** flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb**

2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood** the tree of life**, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (Apocalypse 22:1-2)
…if we follow my simple logic, Paradise is found in Heaven. So could Jesus have erred or could He be Revealing His Divinity by guaranteeing to the thief that on that very day He would take him to Paradise?

Yet, the question lingers… did He or did He not? …Jesus’ Body could very well not have traveled on that super-first class to Paradise… only His Spirit; St. Peter explains that “in the Spirit” He preached to those imprison… so the Body of Christ could well have needed to be taken into the Presence of God before Mary Magdalene and the others could touch it.

1. My understanding, the coptic orthodox church (non Chalcedonian church) deny individual judgement and believe in a waiting place after death for the second coming of the Lord, and use the word “Paradise” in Luke 23: 43 as a scriptural evidence of this idea. Individual judgement can be easily proven by several scriptural evidence like 2 Cor 5:8, Philippians 1:23 and Hebrew 12: 22-24. How can we refute this idea of a waiting place after death?

Thank you for clarifying things to me.

I think that the problem with this argument is much like most issues with Protestant who demand a definite “x,” when the Truth of Revelation demonstrates that it is both–there’s no limitation to God’s Design and Will; God chose to take Enoch and Elijah bodily (before their death–and who knows how many others that are not found in Scriptures) does that mean that, as some argue, they were not in Heaven but in some sort of pre-Jesus’ Ascension limbo?

Since God is not limited by time (linear) and since God is Spirit, why would there be a clause that would impede God from carrying out His Will?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[thistle]

I have been trying to learn more about “Paradise” and what it actually means. Consequently, few questions came across my mind that I could not find clear answers to.

1. What is the Jewish understanding of Paradise? Is it Sheol or Heaven (Beatific vision) or something else?
2. Was Heaven (beatific vision) closed for the righteous until the Cross or until the Resurrection?
3. After the death on the cross, our blessed Lord went to “Prison” (1 Peter 3:19) and the Apostle’s Creed confesses “He descended to the dead (Hades)”. I understand the Catholic teaching define Prison as Bosom of Abraham or Sheol or Adobe of the Dead. Do other Apostolic Churches share that belief or have a different opinion?
4. The good thief died after the death of our blessed Lord but before His resurrection. The Lord told him in Luke 23: 43 “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise” and told St Mary Magdalena on Easter Sunday morning in John 20: 17 “do not hold on to me, because I have not ascended to the Father”. Does it mean our blessed Lord did not ascend to Heaven i.e. the beatific vision at that time? Where did our blessed Lord take the good thief to, Sheol or Heaven (beatific vision) or somewhere else? If to Sheol, then how can the above be reconciled with 2 Cor 12: 4 “was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat”?
5. My understanding, the coptic orthodox church (non Chalcedonian church) deny individual judgement and believe in a waiting place after death for the second coming of the Lord, and use the word “Paradise” in Luke 23: 43 as a scriptural evidence of this idea. Individual judgement can be easily proven by several scriptural evidence like 2 Cor 5:8, Philippians 1:23 and Hebrew 12: 22-24. How can we refute this idea of a waiting place after death?
   Thank you for clarifying things to me.

Heaven was closed to all humans before the death and resurrection of Christ. This is not open to debate. This is what the Church teaches.

 

[Techno2000]

I have been trying to learn more about “Paradise” and what it actually means. Consequently, few questions came across my mind that I could not find clear answers to.

1. What is the Jewish understanding of Paradise? Is it Sheol or Heaven (Beatific vision) or something else?
2. Was Heaven (beatific vision) closed for the righteous

FROM THE MEDITATIONS OF

ANNE CATHERINE EMMERICH

CHAPTER LIX

A Detached Account of the Descent into Hell

WHEN Jesus, after uttering a loud cry, expired, I saw his heavenly soul under the form of a bright meteor pierce the earth at the foot of the Cross, accompanied by the angel Gabriel and many other angels. His Divine nature continued united to his soul as well as to his body, which still remained hanging upon the Cross, but I cannot explain how this was, although I saw it plainly in my own mind. The place into which the soul of Jesus entered was divided into three parts, which appeared to me like three worlds; and I felt that they were round, and that each division was separated from the other by a hemisphere.

I beheld a bright and beautiful space opposite to Limbo; it was enamelled with flowers, delicious breezes wafted through it; and many souls were placed there before being admitted into Heaven after their deliverance from Purgatory. Limbo, the place where the souls were waiting for the Redemption, was divided into different compartments, and encompassed by a thick foggy atmosphere. Our Lord appeared radiant with light and surrounded by angels, who conducted him triumphantly between two of these compartments; the one on the left containing the patriarchs who lived before the time of Abraham, and that on the right those who lived between the days of Abraham and St. John Baptist. These souls did not at first recognise Jesus, but were filled nevertheless with sensations of joy and hope. There was not a spot in those narrow confines which did not, as it were, dilate with feelings of happiness. The passage of Jesus might be compared to the wafting of a breath of air, to a sudden flash of light, or to a shower of vivifying dew, but it was swift as a whirlwind. After passing through the two compartments, he reached a dark spot in which Adam and Eve were standing; he spoke to them, they prostrated and adored him in a perfect ecstasy of joy, and they immediately joined the band of angels, and accompanied our Lord to the compartment on the left, which contained the patriarchs who lived before Abraham. This compartment was a species of Purgatory, and a few evil spirits were wandering about among the souls and endeavouring to fill them with anxiety and alarm. The entrance through a species of door was closed, but the angels rapped, and I thought I heard them say, ‘Open these doors.’ When Jesus entered in triumph the demons dispersed, crying out at the same time, ‘What is there between thee and us? What art thou come to do here? Wilt thou crucify us likewise?’ The angels hunted them away, having first chained them. The poor souls confined in this place had only a slight presentiment and vague idea of the presence of Jesus; but the moment he told them that it was he himself, they burst out into acclamations of joy, and welcomed him with hymns of rapture and delight. The soul of our Lord then wended its way to the right, towards that part which really constituted Limbo; and there he met the soul of the good thief which angels were carrying to Abraham’s bosom, as also that of the bad thief being dragged by demons into Hell. Our Lord addressed a few words to both, and then entered Abraham’s bosom, accompanied by numerous angels and holy souls, and also by those demons who had been chained and expelled from the compartment.

This locality appeared to me more elevated than the surrounding parts; and I can only describe my sensations on entering it, by comparing them to those of a person coming suddenly into the interior of a church, after having been for some time in the burial vaults. The demons, who were strongly chained, were extremely loath to enter, and resisted to the utmost of their power, but the angels compelled them to go forward. All the just who had lived before the time of Christ were assembled there; the patriarch; Moses, the judges, and the kings on the left-hand side; and on the right side, the prophets, and the ancestors of our Lord, as also his near relations, such as Joachim, Anna, Joseph, Zacharias, Elizabeth, and John. There were no demons in this place, and the only discomfort that had been felt by those placed there was a longing desire for the accomplishment of the promise; and when our Lord entered they saluted him with joyful hymns of gratitude and thanksgiving for its fulfilment, they prostrated and adored him, and the evil spirits who had been dragged into Abraham’s bosom when our Lord entered were compelled to confess with shame that they were vanquished. Many of these holy souls were ordered by our Lord to return to the earth, re-enter their own bodies, and thus render a solemn and impressive testimony to the truth. -----continue-

 

[Techno2000]

It was at this moment that so many dead persons left their tombs in Jerusalem; I regarded them less in the light of dead persons risen again than as corpses put in motion by a divine power, and which, after having fulfilled the mission intrusted to them, were laid aside in the same manner as the insignia of office are taken off by a clerk when he has executed the orders of his superiors.

I next saw our Lord, with his triumphant procession, enter into a species of Purgatory which was filled with those good pagans who, having had a faint glimmering of the truth, had longed for its fulfilment: this Purgatory was very deep, and contained a few demons, as also some of the idols of the pagans. I saw the demons compelled to confess the deception they had practised with regard to these idols, and the souls of the poor pagans cast themselves at the feet of Jesus, and adored him with inexpressible joy: here, likewise, the demons were bound with chains and dragged away. I saw our Saviour perform many other actions; but I suffered so intensely at the same time, that I cannot recount them as I should have wished.

307

Finally, I beheld him approach to the centre of the great abyss, that is to say, to Hell itself; and the expression of his countenance was most severe.

The exterior of Hell was appalling and frightful; it was an immense, heavy-looking building, and the granite of which it was formed, although black, was of metallic brightness; and the dark and ponderous doors were secured with such terrible bolts that no one could behold them without trembling. Deep groans and cries of despair might be plainly distinguished even while the doors were tightly closed; but, 0, who can describe the dreadful yells and shrieks which burst upon the ear when the bolts were unfastened and the doors flung open; and, 0, who can depict the melancholy appearance of the inhabitants of this wretched place!

The form under which the Heavenly Jerusalem is generally represented in my visions is that of a beautiful and well-regulated city, and the different degrees of glory to which the elect are raised are demonstrated by the magnificence of their palaces, or the wonderful fruit and flowers with which the gardens are embellished. Hell is shown to me under the same form, but all within it is, on the contrary, close, confused, and crowded; every object tends to fill the mind with sensations of pain and grief; the marks of the wrath and vengeance of God are visible everywhere; despair, like a vulture, gnaws every heart, and discord and misery reign around. In the Heavenly Jerusalem all is peace and eternal harmony, the beginning, fulfilment, and end of everything being pure and perfect happiness; the city is filled with splendid buildings, decorated in such a manner as to charm every eye and enrapture every sense; the inhabitants of this delightful abode are overflowing with rapture and exultation, the gardens gay with lovely flowers, and the trees covered with delicious fruits which give eternal life. In the city of Hell nothing is to be seen but dismal dungeons, dark caverns, frightful deserts, fetid swamps filled with every imaginable species of poisonous and disgusting reptile. In Heaven you behold the happiness and peaceful union of the saints; in Hell, perpetual scenes of wretched discord, and every species of sin and corruption, either under the most horrible forms imaginable, or represented by different kinds of dreadful torments. All in this dreary abode tends to fill the mind with horror; not a word of comfort is heard or a consoling idea admitted; the one tremendous thought, that the justice of an all-powerful God inflicts on the damned nothing but what they have fully deserved is the absorbing tremendous conviction which weighs down each heart. Vice appears in its own, grim disgusting colours, being stripped of the mask under which it is hidden in this world, and the infernal viper is seen devouring those who have cherished or fostered it here below. In a word, Hell is the temple of anguish and despair, while the kingdom of God is the temple of peace and happiness. This is easy to understand when seen; but it is almost impossible to describe clearly.

jesus-passion.com/THE_PASSION6.htm#CHAPTER%20LIX

 

[thistle]

It was at this moment that so many dead persons left their tombs in Jerusalem; I regarded them less in the light of dead persons risen again than as corpses put in motion by a divine power, and which, after having fulfilled the mission intrusted to them, were laid aside in the same manner as the insignia of office are taken off by a clerk when he has executed the orders of his superiors.

I next saw our Lord, with his triumphant procession, enter into a species of Purgatory which was filled with those good pagans who, having had a faint glimmering of the truth, had longed for its fulfilment: this Purgatory was very deep, and contained a few demons, as also some of the idols of the pagans. I saw the demons compelled to confess the deception they had practised with regard to these idols, and the souls of the poor pagans cast themselves at the feet of Jesus, and adored him with inexpressible joy: here, likewise, the demons were bound with chains and dragged away. I saw our Saviour perform many other actions; but I suffered so intensely at the same time, that I cannot recount them as I should have wished.

307

Finally, I beheld him approach to the centre of the great abyss, that is to say, to Hell itself; and the expression of his countenance was most severe.

The exterior of Hell was appalling and frightful; it was an immense, heavy-looking building, and the granite of which it was formed, although black, was of metallic brightness; and the dark and ponderous doors were secured with such terrible bolts that no one could behold them without trembling. Deep groans and cries of despair might be plainly distinguished even while the doors were tightly closed; but, 0, who can describe the dreadful yells and shrieks which burst upon the ear when the bolts were unfastened and the doors flung open; and, 0, who can depict the melancholy appearance of the inhabitants of this wretched place!

The form under which the Heavenly Jerusalem is generally represented in my visions is that of a beautiful and well-regulated city, and the different degrees of glory to which the elect are raised are demonstrated by the magnificence of their palaces, or the wonderful fruit and flowers with which the gardens are embellished. Hell is shown to me under the same form, but all within it is, on the contrary, close, confused, and crowded; every object tends to fill the mind with sensations of pain and grief; the marks of the wrath and vengeance of God are visible everywhere; despair, like a vulture, gnaws every heart, and discord and misery reign around. In the Heavenly Jerusalem all is peace and eternal harmony, the beginning, fulfilment, and end of everything being pure and perfect happiness; the city is filled with splendid buildings, decorated in such a manner as to charm every eye and enrapture every sense; the inhabitants of this delightful abode are overflowing with rapture and exultation, the gardens gay with lovely flowers, and the trees covered with delicious fruits which give eternal life. In the city of Hell nothing is to be seen but dismal dungeons, dark caverns, frightful deserts, fetid swamps filled with every imaginable species of poisonous and disgusting reptile. In Heaven you behold the happiness and peaceful union of the saints; in Hell, perpetual scenes of wretched discord, and every species of sin and corruption, either under the most horrible forms imaginable, or represented by different kinds of dreadful torments. All in this dreary abode tends to fill the mind with horror; not a word of comfort is heard or a consoling idea admitted; the one tremendous thought, that the justice of an all-powerful God inflicts on the damned nothing but what they have fully deserved is the absorbing tremendous conviction which weighs down each heart. Vice appears in its own, grim disgusting colours, being stripped of the mask under which it is hidden in this world, and the infernal viper is seen devouring those who have cherished or fostered it here below. In a word, Hell is the temple of anguish and despair, while the kingdom of God is the temple of peace and happiness. This is easy to understand when seen; but it is almost impossible to describe clearly.

jesus-passion.com/THE_PASSION6.htm#CHAPTER%20LIX

The revelations of Anne Emmerich are not approved by the Church. In fact Anne Emmerich never even wrote them.

 

[Techno2000]

the revelations of anne emmerich are not approved by the church. In fact anne emmerich never even wrote them.

The dolorous passion of
our lord Jesus Christ

nihil obstat: Georgivs d. Smith. D.d.

Censor depvtatvs

imprimatur: Edm. Can. Svrmont

vicarivs generalis

westmonasterii, die xxi maii mcmxxviii

 

[thistle]

The dolorous passion of
our lord Jesus Christ

nihil obstat: Georgivs d. Smith. D.d.

Censor depvtatvs

imprimatur: Edm. Can. Svrmont

vicarivs generalis

westmonasterii, die xxi maii mcmxxviii

I repeat they are NOT approved by the Church and she did not write them. They were written by Clemens Brentano who was a poet and who said he interviewed her. The Church has questioned the authenticity of the writings.

Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur do NOT mean the revelations have been approved by the Church.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

In this question I came across a new writing in the New Testament. Thankyou Eddy.

So just concentrating on that alone,

#3.
From usccb.org/bible/1pt/3:22 (that seems to be a great website to help with understanding.)

8
For Christ also suffered* for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.g
19
In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,*
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water

The discourse on what prison means is :

• [3:19] The spirits in prison: it is not clear just who these spirits are. They may be the spirits of the sinners who died in the flood, or angelic powers, hostile to God, who have been overcome by Christ (cf. 1 Pt 3:22; Gn 6:4; Enoch 6–36, especially 21:6; 2 Enoch 7:1–5)

On whether that passage is the same as that in the Apostles or Nicene Creed? Ie He descended into Hell,

There are Theology experts here who would really have to answer that question.

I was Not very helpful answer in questioning the meaning and understanding of 3:19.
For me it raises more questions

 

[Techno2000]

I repeat they are NOT approved by the Church and she did not write them. They were written by Clemens Brentano who was a poet and who said he interviewed her. The Church has questioned the authenticity of the writings.

Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur do NOT mean the revelations have been approved by the Church.

Do you believe The Virgin Mary gave the Rosary to St.Dominic ?

 

[jcrichton]

In this question I came across a new writing in the New Testament. Thankyou Eddy.

So just concentrating on that alone,

#3.
From http://www.usccb.org/bible/1pt/3:22 (that seems to be a great website to help with understanding.)

8
For Christ also suffered* for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.g
19
In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,*
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water

The discourse on what prison means is :

• [3:19] The spirits in prison: it is not clear just who these spirits are. They may be the spirits of the sinners who died in the flood, or angelic powers, hostile to God, who have been overcome by Christ (cf. 1 Pt 3:22; Gn 6:4; Enoch 6–36, especially 21:6; 2 Enoch 7:1–5)

On whether that passage is the same as that in the Apostles or Nicene Creed? Ie He descended into Hell,

There are Theology experts here who would really have to answer that question.

I was Not very helpful answer in questioning the meaning and understanding of 3:19.
For me it raises more questions ������

Hi, Rose!

…I’m very basic… it seems to me that the context defines who these “spirits” are… St. Peter speaks of those who died prior to Jesus’ Incarnation and, as an example, he makes reference to the flood where only Noah and his sons, his wife and his sons’ wives entered the ark–Genesis 5 is perhaps the first account of a “recap,” it connects Noah’s experience to Adam’s progeny.

St. Peter’s allocution makes note that few remained in God’s favor throughout time and that the majority, who died during the time of God’s Patience (the economy of the Old Testament), were imprisoned spirits.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Hi, Rose!

…I’m very basic… it seems to me that the context defines who these “spirits” are… St. Peter speaks of those who died prior to Jesus’ Incarnation and, as an example, he makes reference to the flood where only Noah and his sons, his wife and his sons’ wives entered the ark–Genesis 5 is perhaps the first account of a “recap,” it connects Noah’s experience to Adam’s progeny.

St. Peter’s allocution makes note that few remained in God’s favor throughout time and that the majority, who died during the time of God’s Patience (the economy of the Old Testament), were imprisoned spirits.

Maran atha!

Angel

Its a good thing Our Lord is very patient

 

[thistle]

Do you believe The Virgin Mary gave the Rosary to St.Dominic ?

You are changing the subject. Classic digression because you don’t have a answer to my point!

 

[Techno2000]

You are changing the subject. Classic digression because you don’t have a answer to my point!

If you can show me where these revelations are not approved by the church I will stop posting them .

 

[rinnie]

I have been trying to learn more about “Paradise” and what it actually means. Consequently, few questions came across my mind that I could not find clear answers to.

1. What is the Jewish understanding of Paradise? Is it Sheol or Heaven (Beatific vision) or something else?
2. Was Heaven (beatific vision) closed for the righteous until the Cross or until the Resurrection?
3. After the death on the cross, our blessed Lord went to “Prison” (1 Peter 3:19) and the Apostle’s Creed confesses “He descended to the dead (Hades)”. I understand the Catholic teaching define Prison as Bosom of Abraham or Sheol or Adobe of the Dead. Do other Apostolic Churches share that belief or have a different opinion?
4. The good thief died after the death of our blessed Lord but before His resurrection. The Lord told him in Luke 23: 43 “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise” and told St Mary Magdalena on Easter Sunday morning in John 20: 17 “do not hold on to me, because I have not ascended to the Father”. Does it mean our blessed Lord did not ascend to Heaven i.e. the beatific vision at that time? Where did our blessed Lord take the good thief to, Sheol or Heaven (beatific vision) or somewhere else? If to Sheol, then how can the above be reconciled with 2 Cor 12: 4 “was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat”?
5. My understanding, the coptic orthodox church (non Chalcedonian church) deny individual judgement and believe in a waiting place after death for the second coming of the Lord, and use the word “Paradise” in Luke 23: 43 as a scriptural evidence of this idea. Individual judgement can be easily proven by several scriptural evidence like 2 Cor 5:8, Philippians 1:23 and Hebrew 12: 22-24. How can we refute this idea of a waiting place after death?
   Thank you for clarifying things to me.

Long story short because of original sin those waiting could not enter heaven, Jesus wiped that out with his death paying for our sins and cleared out hades, If you remember there were 2 levels, how the rich man saw Abraham etc.

But hades was a waiting place for the good you could say and bad, and Jesus released the good and by his death as I said wiped out original sin and they went to heaven.

As far as Purgatory the RCC does believe in it, it is a place where a person is deemed worthy of heaven, but needs a final perfection in order to enter.

It is different from hades, because in hades they need Christ to save then, in purgatory Christ has already paid for our sins, it is our own desires that need perfected to enter heaven.

Jesus wiped out Original sin with Baptism here on earth. In the O,T, you can see that had sacrifices, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world.

 

[Techno2000]

I have been trying to learn more about “Paradise” and what it actually means. Consequently, few questions came across my mind that I could not find clear answers to.

1. What is the Jewish understanding of Paradise? Is it Sheol or Heaven (Beatific vision) or something else?
2. Was Heaven (beatific vision) closed for the righteous until the Cross or until the Resurrection?
3. After the death on the cross, our blessed Lord went to “Prison” (1 Peter 3:19) and the Apostle’s Creed confesses “He descended to the dead (Hades)”. I understand the Catholic teaching define Prison as Bosom of Abraham or Sheol or Adobe of the Dead. Do other Apostolic Churches share that belief or have a different opinion?
4. The good thief died after the death of our blessed Lord but before His resurrection. The Lord told him in Luke 23: 43 “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise” and told St Mary Magdalena on Easter Sunday morning in John 20: 17 “do not hold on to me, because I have not ascended to the Father”. Does it mean our blessed Lord did not ascend to Heaven i.e. the beatific vision at that time? Where did our blessed Lord take the good thief to, Sheol or Heaven (beatific vision) or somewhere else? If to Sheol, then how can the above be reconciled with 2 Cor 12: 4 “was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat”?
5. My understanding, the coptic orthodox church (non Chalcedonian church) deny individual judgement and believe in a waiting place after death for the second coming of the Lord, and use the word “Paradise” in Luke 23: 43 as a scriptural evidence of this idea. Individual judgement can be easily proven by several scriptural evidence like 2 Cor 5:8, Philippians 1:23 and Hebrew 12: 22-24. How can we refute this idea of a waiting place after death?
   Thank you for clarifying things to me.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ARTICLE 5
“HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN”

631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles’ Creed confesses in the same article Christ’s descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:

Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477
Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell

632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488
IN BRIEF

636 By the expression “He descended into hell”, the Apostles’ Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil “who has the power of death” (Heb 2:14).

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Heaven was closed to all humans before the death and resurrection of Christ. This is not open to debate. This is what the Church teaches.

What about the Saints of the Old Testament: Moses, Elijah etc. What does the Church teach about their whereabouts and where did they come from when they appeared and spoke with Jesus?

 

[jcrichton]

Its a good thing Our Lord is very patient ������

Hi, Rose!

I fully concur!

…when I encounter people talking/texting about ‘those poor souls that did not get a change to know Jesus’ and those others in the world where Christianity is forbidden under the threat of torture, terrorism, and murder… I a simple smile comes to me as I recognize that they are simply seeking a “clause/excuse” since God’s Infinite Mercy and Patience will Allow Salvation to visit man even if only in the Spirit (as in the Holy Spirit).

The Holy Spirit Searches all… even the innermost of man’s being–He Himself will Convict every person in the world!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[thistle]

What about the Saints of the Old Testament: Moses, Elijah etc. What does the Church teach about their whereabouts and where did they come from when they appeared and spoke with Jesus?

As Moses, Elijah and all before Christ’s death and resurrection were human my answer remains. The Church teaches that the gates of Heaven were closed to everyone before that.