Questions about paraliturgical/devotional songs

[dzheremi]

Here on CAF we often discuss similarities and differences between Eastern/Oriental Catholic churches and their Orthodox mother churches, but those discussions mainly concern the liturgy itself. After several years of immersing myself in as many aspects of Coptic/Oriental Orthodox life as I can (everything but putting electric lights around icons; ugh), I have also come to appreciate that there are similar differences between Orthodox and Catholic paraliturgical/devotional cultures as well. I’d like to talk about that in this thread.

The most easy to illustrate are probably paraliturgical/devotional songs, for example Tewahedo Orthodox mezmur and its Catholic equivalent. I know we don’t have any Eritrean Orthodox or Catholics on this board, but you don’t really need to be from that culture to be able to tell the difference between them. One uses native folk instruments (the Orthodox mezmur uses the otherwise-secular krar), while the other does not. The Catholic mezmur is in fact not really different than some modern Eritrean pop music.

The Coptic Catholics apparently have taken at least some songs (texts and melody) directly from the Orthodox Church. While I have not been able to find distinctly Catholic madeeha, taraneem, tamgeed, etc. what little Coptic Catholic music I have found from St. Mary Arabic Choir is quite far from even the most modern Coptic Orthodox compositions of those types (for non-Arabphones, the difference between these various kinds of non-liturgical songs is in their texts and whether or not they follow a prescribed melody associated with songs of that genre, e.g., Coptic madeeha are like eulogies for specific saints or groups of saints and generally, but not always, follow the melody that you hear in that video; here one for St. Abanoub, the famous child-martyr of Nehisa. Taraneem, by contrast, are spiritual songs that do not follow pre-set melodies or topics, like this very nice song by Boles Malak about our fathers the monks).

At first glance, the same seems to be the case with the Syriac Catholics and their Orthodox equivalent, at least as far as concerns their Middle Eastern communions (not so much the Indians; the Syro-Malankara Catholics are either impressively free of dreck, or at least have limited themselves to accepting the same dreck as the Malankara Orthodox sometimes do, e.g., keyboards and drums even in the liturgy…barekhmor, I do not understand why either have these). If this is actually Syriac Catholic in the first place (which I doubt), it has virtually nothing in common with its Syriac Orthodox counterpart. Interestingly, the hymn heard at that SOC link, as played (which is how you it’s for some paraliturgical celebration, since the Middle Eastern Syriac Orthodox do not use modern instruments in their liturgy save for the very occasional organ, much as the Greeks used to do in the USA as recently as the 1960s) could easily pass for a particularly well-done Syriac Maronite rendition of the same (listen for yourself to a Maronite version; it’s quite nice). As far as concerns truly non-liturgical songs, as opposed to hymns in non-liturgical settings, we find no such similarity, as Suryoyo gospel music (hahaha…oh, internet!) is very different than Maronite non-liturgical songs, even those done in a more self-consciously “Middle Eastern” style (maybe this reflects more of a difference between Arab and Syriac music in general, though? There is a lot of crossover, of course, but they’re not the same).

A few questions arise:

• Since the Catholic people in these churches generally come from the same cultural and linguistic backgrounds as their Orthodox counterparts (hence, I’ve included the Maronites together with other West Syriacs), what do you think explains these differences, such as the penchant for Catholics to favor modern instruments and arrangements over traditional/folk instruments and arrangements?
• Related to the above, it is interesting to me that some of the best (read: most traditional) examples of Maronite liturgical chant are more closely related to Syriac Orthodox paraliturgical chant than anything you would likely find in the liturgy. Why is that? I have a hard time believing that the answer should be so simple as “Maronites use instruments and Syriac Orthodox largely don’t”, since my favorite Maronite liturgical recording is with violin and it certainly doesn’t make it worse.

It seems like there are almost different standards for the respective churches when it comes to this stuff. I mean, I have seen some weird stuff in Coptic churches outside of the liturgy (largely isolated to the new churches in subsaharan Africa and Canada, as well as the ever-problematic D.C. area in the USA), but even the fact that we have developed certain pre-set patterns for various paraliturgical songs, to use but one example, should at least in theory limit the more…um…flashy impulses found among Egyptians in general.

What say you, board? Am I the only one who even wonders about this sort of thing?

 

[SyroMalankara]

One trend which I find disappointing among our youth in the United States and Canada within our Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, and Syro-Malankara Catholic (and maybe others?) is the trend that our Traditional (or paratraditional) music is inadequate for today, or for evangelization. For me it was the direct opposite. I was not drawn further into our Church by hearing the local non-denominational song belted out during or at the end of the Liturgy, it was the Liturgical songs - which today are being skipped or abandoned - that pulled on my heart, while also completing the theology of the Liturgy. I attended a Coptic Mission and the youth choir inserted multiple English Christian-pop songs into the Coptic Liturgy instead of translations of the authentic songs. I saw the same online at a Syriac Orthodox parish in Canada, and while the choir at my parish doesn’t insert modern English songs into the Liturgy, when celebrated in English they skip the dismissal song and do this at times. What’s wrong with what was handed down to us in full?

 

[Mintaka]

In the US and Europe after Vatican II (and even before it, in some places), there was a big push by those who wanted to totally change things to have more “modern folk music” in Catholic parishes as part of the “spirit of Vatican II.” Most of the “folk music” of the 1960’s and 1970’s was really more like pop music than anything else. At the same time, the vast majority of old Catholic devotional songs were being thrown out or stamped out, as old-fashioned and schmaltzy and something to be ashamed of.

Nothing like getting rid of real folk music of one’s culture, in order to put in fake folk music…

By the 1980’s and 1990’s, “folk music” had changed to pretty much churchy pop music, and this was pushed more and more by the big Catholic music publishing concerns.

There is no doubt in my mind that even Catholics in places like Ethiopia have been affected by this.

OTOH, there are probably plenty of Catholic devotional songs that are still out there, but just aren’t heard very often; or which aren’t recorded and put on official music programs. A lot of times, there’s a lot of difference between the songs that people are supposed to love to sing, and the ones they really do!

 

[dzheremi]

Syro-Malankara and Mintaka, you both make good points about churches using songs they should not. This does of course also happen in the OO church, especially in so-called “mission” parishes as Syro-Malankara unfortunately experienced. HH Pope Tawadros II recently sent an exploratory group of three bishops to investigate and address complaints about such behavior in D.C.-area churches.

What I meant with the OP, though, is not when people use songs that they are explicitly not to use (e.g., Coptic Orthodox using American Protestant songs…blehhhh!), but why there is such a discrepancy in what is considered allowable. Why, if the Catholic churches that came out of various Oriental Orthodox communions or otherwise share a common cultural background with them are supposed to retain all of their Orthodox-derived heritage, is this generally considered to only be a liturgical goal, while the non-liturgical aspects are just…whatever people feel like doing, I guess. (This actually seems to fit the COC “missionary” parish mindset, too, actually. “Hey, it’s not in the liturgy, so anything goes!” Lord have mercy on us.)

 

[SyroMalankara]

Syro-Malankara and Mintaka, you both make good points about churches using songs they should not. This does of course also happen in the OO church, especially in so-called “mission” parishes as Syro-Malankara unfortunately experienced. HH Pope Tawadros II recently sent an exploratory group of three bishops to investigate and address complaints about such behavior in D.C.-area churches.

What I meant with the OP, though, is not when people use songs that they are explicitly not to use (e.g., Coptic Orthodox using American Protestant songs…blehhhh!), but why there is such a discrepancy in what is considered allowable. Why, if the Catholic churches that came out of various Oriental Orthodox communions or otherwise share a common cultural background with them are supposed to retain all of their Orthodox-derived heritage, is this generally considered to only be a liturgical goal, while the non-liturgical aspects are just…whatever people feel like doing, I guess. (This actually seems to fit the COC “missionary” parish mindset, too, actually. “Hey, it’s not in the liturgy, so anything goes!” Lord have mercy on us.)

Personally, I think the reason is that many of our higher clergy are uneducated on Liturgical Music, so they allow what they think MAY be appropriate, or what fulfills the need of the day as far as the words used while ignoring inappropriate music. This, I know is the case in India for Catholic or Orthodox parishes. In the case of Catholics in particular, the Eastern churches are usually very small, especially in relation to their Orthodox counterpart - while the Orthodox counterpart may have the common Tradition to look back to, if the Eastern Catholic body severed itself from that common background to make itself feel “more Catholic” or in contrast/opposition to the Orthodox body, this may be more common (hence, why it’s NOT common among the UGCC or Melkites, but IS among smaller Churches). Sometimes its a combination of the two - for example, the Syro-Malabarese or the Chaldeans are the larger body, compared to the Assyrian Church of the East, however they have been latinized and/or educated in latin institutions for 600 years and have picked up latin/western/non-Eastern tendencies.

 

[malphono]

dzheremi, it would have been easier if you had broken the OP into parts. I don’t even know where to begin.

 

[dzheremi]

Sorry, Malphono. It was originally going to be two posts since I had more questions and examples, but then I got the message from the board that I needed to shorten it from 11,000 characters or something crazy like that and decided it was just way too much. I guess it’s already way too much, but since I don’t believe it’s something we’ve ever actually discussed, I figured it warranted a bit more in-depth background/introduction than, say, another discussion on the filioque or “are Eastern Catholics like Latins with regard to X” or whatever.

 

[malphono]

Sorry, Malphono. It was originally going to be two posts since I had more questions and examples, but then I got the message from the board that I needed to shorten it from 11,000 characters or something crazy like that and decided it was just way too much. I guess it’s already way too much, but since I don’t believe it’s something we’ve ever actually discussed, I figured it warranted a bit more in-depth background/introduction than, say, another discussion on the filioque or “are Eastern Catholics like Latins with regard to X” or whatever.

Oh, I understand the idea, and I agree it’s an interesting topic unlike, say the “filioque” etc. But since the topic is broad, I’m going to try to offer a few comments on a section-by-section basis. Maybe when I’m through, knitting the parts together might make a relatively cohesive narrative. Then again, maybe not.

The Coptic Catholics apparently have taken at least some songs (texts and melody) directly from the Orthodox Church. While I have not been able to find distinctly Catholic madeeha, taraneem, tamgeed, etc. what little Coptic Catholic music I have found from St. Mary Arabic Choir is quite far from even the most modern Coptic Orthodox compositions of those types (for non-Arabphones, the difference between these various kinds of non-liturgical songs is in their texts and whether or not they follow a prescribed melody associated with songs of that genre, e.g., Coptic madeeha are like eulogies for specific saints or groups of saints and generally, but not always, follow the melody that you hear in that video; here one for St. Abanoub, the famous child-martyr of Nehisa. Taraneem, by contrast, are spiritual songs that do not follow pre-set melodies or topics, like this very nice song by Boles Malak about our fathers the monks).

I’m certainly not an expert in Coptic anything, but listening to the samples, I really don’t have to be. But I will note here at the outset that, while I know what the words mean, I’ve never heard of the various distinctions (madeeha, tanareem, etc) in regard to Church music. But I don’t my ignorance in that detail really matters that much. If you think it does, then go ahead and tell me to cease and desist after this first “installment” and I will.

That the first example is identical to the COC I’ll take your word for, and I’d have no reason to doubt it. It’s rather typical of semi-modern Arabic-language paraliturgical hymnody used in the Middle Eastern in general, although it does have what I consider an Egyptian overtone.

Now, the second example is about as Coptic as I am. Actually it’s about as Egyptian as I am too. I’ve heard some of the St Mary’s stuff before, and most of it of relatively recent vintage (mostly post-conciliar) and Lebanese origin. Some of the stuff was written by Mansour Labaky, and I was never a fan of his hymns. The third example refers me back to the first albeit that it’s far more distinctly Egyptian in style. The fourth example (“madeeha”) to me displays a Coptic style, but based on how you describe its use, it reminds me of the various “ziyahat” in paraliturgical Maronite useage.

The fifth example, (“tanareem”) could have been written Abdul Wahab or one of his contemporaries. Listen to the “Wheat Song” among others of that era, sometime and you’ll see what I mean. Of course that style was **very **heavily influenced the Syro-Lebanese (alright, Levantine, since Iraq is in that mix too) folk style, which means that it differs markedly from anything considered traditonally Egyptian. And by the way, I absolutely love the clip. It’s even brought a tear to my eye … I can hear my grandmother’s angelic voice …

OK that’s enough for that item. Shall I try another or just zip it?

 

[dzheremi]

I’m certainly not an expert in Coptic anything, but listening to the samples, I really don’t have to be. But I will note here at the outset that, while I know what the words mean, I’ve never heard of the various distinctions (madeeha, tanareem, etc) in regard to Church music.

Oh, those are just the distinctions that Coptic friends told me when I asked what the difference is between madeeha, taraneem, etc. “Madeeha is remembering the saints life”, etc. Arabic is not my language, of course. They’re still not entirely clear to me, anyway; I can’t really tell what is different typologically between madeeha and tamgeed, for instance. Nearest I can guess from the texts, madeeha usually tell the story of the saint’s life and upbringing (as you can hear/read in the video for St. Abanoub: woulida b-nehisa min Maryam al-qeddisa, etc. The same biographic details are given in the HH Pope Shenouda III song, too, about the village he was born in and his mother dying shortly after he was born and whatnot), while tamgeed don’t or don’t necessarily (they seem like a more general extolling of their virtues than necessarily telling their history in a linear fashion). I don’t know, though. Also, I made a rather baffling mistake in that section of the OP: the general melody for madeeha is that which is used in the St. Abanoub video, wheresd the melody for the HH Pope Shenouda III video is actually the melody for “Hos Erof”, an actual hymn of the Church, just redone with a relatively standard text for the genre (he was born here, his family was like this, he later did this, etc). Yeah, yeah, nobody cares…

Now, the second example is about as Coptic as I am. Actually it’s about as Egyptian as I am too. I’ve heard some of the St Mary’s stuff before, and most of it of relatively recent vintage (mostly post-conciliar) and Lebanese origin.

I was wondering about that. When I opened the page, the first thing I heard was “Ya Mariam el-Bekr”…what? That’s not even close to a Coptic hymn. I have versions from Fairuz and Wadih el Safi, and have heard additional versions from modern Maronite singers. Never from a Copt.

The fifth example, (“tanareem”) could have been written Abdul Wahab or one of his contemporaries. Listen to the “Wheat Song” among others of that era, sometime and you’ll see what I mean.

Hey, I have that record! I could do that! Finally, all this plastic starts pulling its weight…! I’ll check it out after lunch. Can’t remember the melody right now.

Of course that style was **very **heavily influenced the Syro-Lebanese (alright, Levantine, since Iraq is in that mix too) folk style, which means that it differs markedly from anything considered traditonally Egyptian.

Yeah. I don’t expect any of this popular stuff to be “purely” anything, it just strikes me as odd to think of Copts singing what I know (perhaps wrongly; actually, likely wrongly) as Maronite songs, or similar things. Each church has its own background also strictly outside of the liturgy which should also be of interest to us who care about tradition, hence this thread.

And by the way, I absolutely love the clip. It’s even brought a tear to my eye … I can hear my grandmother’s angelic voice …

I am so glad you like it.

OK that’s enough for that item. Shall I try another?

If you wish. I didn’t start this thread just to foist my opinions on others, but to see if other people have noticed this same phenomenon, and get others’ opinions on the state/character of paraliturgical traditions in their churches. I know you have plenty of experience in this area.

 

[malphono]

If you wish. I didn’t start this thread just to foist my opinions on others, but to see if other people have noticed this same phenomenon, and get others’ opinions on the state/character of paraliturgical traditions in their churches. I know you have plenty of experience in this area.

I’m not so sure about the last, but thanks. But what they hey … I’ll take a stab at the next section.

At first glance, the same seems to be the case with the Syriac Catholics and their Orthodox equivalent, at least as far as concerns their Middle Eastern communions (not so much the Indians; the Syro-Malankara Catholics are either impressively free of dreck, or at least have limited themselves to accepting the same dreck as the Malankara Orthodox sometimes do, e.g., keyboards and drums even in the liturgy…barekhmor, I do not understand why either have these). If this is actually Syriac Catholic in the first place (which I doubt), it has virtually nothing in common with its Syriac Orthodox counterpart. Interestingly, the hymn heard at that SOC link, as played (which is how you it’s for some paraliturgical celebration, since the Middle Eastern Syriac Orthodox do not use modern instruments in their liturgy save for the very occasional organ, much as the Greeks used to do in the USA as recently as the 1960s) could easily pass for a particularly well-done Syriac Maronite rendition of the same (listen for yourself to a Maronite version; it’s quite nice). As far as concerns truly non-liturgical songs, as opposed to hymns in non-liturgical settings, we find no such similarity, as Suryoyo gospel music (hahaha…oh, internet!) is very different than Maronite non-liturgical songs, even those done in a more self-consciously “Middle Eastern” style (maybe this reflects more of a difference between Arab and Syriac music in general, though? There is a lot of crossover, of course, but they’re not the same).

OK … the first clip isn’t Syriac anything. It’s but another unfortunate example of the neo-Levantine style of “hymnody” which I personally find to be quite revolting. (I don’t even like the neo-levantine style of pop music – and actually the two are nearly identical – but I digress.)

Now the second and third clips are interesting because neither is exactly hymnody. Both are renditions of the qolo yawno tlito but neither is 100% authentic due mainly to the instrumentation. Beyond that, though, both are decent.

The next three are another story. The first represents a typical “suryoyo” style and this same style can be heard in a lot of north-Syrian/Iraqi and even Kurdish music. I happen to like it. The second is just plain neo-Maronite drivel. It’s a classic example of what I hate about the entire style. The worst part is that this hymn, and others like it, are often used in lieu of the proper chant during liturgical functions. (And boy, am I setting myself up to be slammed by the neo-Maronites for that remark but … as we used to say when I was younger: ask me if I care? but again I digress.) The third uses something that has become traditional among the Maronites over the past 4 centuries, and that is the “litany” format. Various litanies from the Latin Church were imported but were given a unique treatment. The example in the clip is highly divergent from the standard, though, since it has too much instrumentation on the one hand, and rather a dance beat on the other. This I would classify as neo-Arabic. Frankly, I hate it.

Enough? Or do you want installment #3?

 

[malphono]

A few questions arise:

• Since the Catholic people in these churches generally come from the same cultural and linguistic backgrounds as their Orthodox counterparts (hence, I’ve included the Maronites together with other West Syriacs), what do you think explains these differences, such as the penchant for Catholics to favor modern instruments and arrangements over traditional/folk instruments and arrangements?

Well, I was in the mood so here’s installment 3 of 3 … want it or not.

The differences are, unfortunately, directly related to the amount of latinization, of the “old” variety, or the far more insidious Novus Ordo-inspired neo variety. The Maronites are, of the identified group, of course, the most infected, particularly by the latter variety. The SCC, however, seems to be infected by a trend of “Maronitization” and hence they have adopted much of the neo-Maronite hymnody. The Coptic CC is likewise affected this (which is obvious from the St Mary’s playlist), as is the Armenian CC and even the Chaldeans, at least to a degree. From what I’ve heard on broadcast, though the Chaldeans at least attempt to create more “Oriental” arrangements for the more obviously westernized hymns.

There is also the difference in regional styles of folk music to consider. In some areas there’s more “Turkish” influence, while in others it’s more Arabic or Kurdish. That, of course, has a bearing on the more “oriental” styles of modern or semi-modern paraliturgical music. For example, Kaslik insists on a very heavily Arabized style with strumming instruments, etc, where as Louizé goes downright western. Labaky uses a mix of the two. There are others who use the neo-levantine style with its thick heavy syrup. <<bleah>>

• Related to the above, it is interesting to me that some of the best (read: most traditional) examples of Maronite liturgical chant are more closely related to Syriac Orthodox paraliturgical chant than anything you would likely find in the liturgy. Why is that? I have a hard time believing that the answer should be so simple as “Maronites use instruments and Syriac Orthodox largely don’t”, since my favorite Maronite liturgical recording is with violin and it certainly doesn’t make it worse.

By rights, liturgical chant in the Maronite Church should be almost the same as in the SOC. While it’s not identical (and never was), most of the various qolé etc are shared, and are recognizable one to the other. The variations are usually minor, but they are variations. (When one comes right down to it, though, even the SOC has 3 major variant chant traditions – some say 4 – within itself: Mardin, Tur Abdin, and Tikrit, with Mosul being the possible 4th.)

It seems like there are almost different standards for the respective churches when it comes to this stuff. I mean, I have seen some weird stuff in Coptic churches outside of the liturgy (largely isolated to the new churches in subsaharan Africa and Canada, as well as the ever-problematic D.C. area in the USA), but even the fact that we have developed certain pre-set patterns for various paraliturgical songs, to use but one example, should at least in theory limit the more…um…flashy impulses found among Egyptians in general.

Yes, there seem to be different standards: the Orthodox hold to tradition and those in union with Rome seem to run screaming from it.

 

[dzheremi]

Now the second and third clips are interesting because neither is exactly hymnody. Both are renditions of the qolo yawno tlito but neither is 100% authentic due mainly to the instrumentation. Beyond that, though, both are decent.

Yeah, but if I put unaccompanied versions, this wouldn’t fit talking about about paraliturgical renditions.

The next three are another story. The first represents a typical “suryoyo” style and this same style can be heard in a lot of north-Syrian/Iraqi and even Kurdish music. I happen to like it.

Yep. I chose that video because it is essentially folk music, so it would back up the whole “folk music as paraliturgical songs” thing that the OO, but not so often the OC, seem to do (cf. the Eritrean examples). I have various recordings of Syriac folk music, too, and it’s hard to miss the connections between these and surrounding folk music. The common instrumentation helps (famous Assyrian tanbour players like Albert Ruel Tamras come to mind), but of course there are also common melodies…another source of endless arguments between Syriac people and Kurds (as if another is needed).

The second is just plain neo-Maronite drivel. It’s a classic example of what I hate about the entire style. The worst part is that this hymn, and others like it, are often used in lieu of the proper chant during liturgical functions. (And boy, am I setting myself up to be slammed by the neo-Maronites for that remark but … as we used to say when I was younger: ask me if I care? but again I digress.)

Wow…you mean that stuff is in the liturgy itself? Oh my…no thank you! I thought I had picked something that definitely would not appear in the liturgy.

The third uses something that has become traditional among the Maronites over the past 4 centuries, and that is the “litany” format. Various litanies from the Latin Church were imported but were given a unique treatment. The example in the clip is highly divergent from the standard, though, since it has too much instrumentation on the one hand, and rather a dance beat on the other. This I would classify as neo-Arabic. Frankly, I hate it.

Hahaha. You are picking out all the reasons why I chose it, and named it “self-consciously Middle Eastern”. I have a hard time truly hating it, but I bet I would if things like that started showing up in the Coptic Orthodox Church! In fact, the much beloved Bishop of Melbourne, HG Bishop Suriel, has said (not in so many words) that the attraction many Coptic youth feel for modern Arabic pop and dance music is mystifying to him, and moreover can be detrimental to their identities as Coptic people. I have to believe that things like this are what he had in mind. Well, actually, that’s not true; technically, it would have been things like this, which I actually think is worse than the Lebanese song (warning: icons and electric guitars and smooth R&B vocals; this is what St. Athanasius was exiled multiple times for? I don’t think so!). This isn’t even Middle Eastern. It’s the Backstreet Boys in Arabic or something, with religious themes. Where’s a vomiting smiley when I need one…

 

[malphono]

Yeah, but if I put unaccompanied versions, this wouldn’t fit talking about about paraliturgical renditions.

Gotcha, but I think the only way either could be called “paraliturgical” would be in an extra-liturgical recital. Neither version would be used by real monks, whether SOC or Maronite. But considering what’s so done in parish churches, even among the SOC, the use of either version liturgically would be acceptable. And in a Maronite venue a vast improvement over most other options.

Yep. I chose that video because it is essentially folk music, so it would back up the whole “folk music as paraliturgical songs” thing that the OO, but not so often the OC, seem to do (cf. the Eritrean examples). I have various recordings of Syriac folk music, too, and it’s hard to miss the connections between these and surrounding folk music. The common instrumentation helps (famous Assyrian tanbour players like Albert Ruel Tamras come to mind), but of course there are also common melodies…another source of endless arguments between Syriac people and Kurds (as if another is needed).

That bring to mind a comment made years ago by a close friend (who is now a bishop), regarding the Syriac qolé: they all, in one way or another, derive from folk music. Some of them, one being t-har gabriel, have a metric rhythm that is pure dabke (or chobi, depending on the dialect). In its way, it’s somewhat reminiscent of the tradition that Coptic chant derives from the Pharaonic temples.

Wow…you mean that stuff is in the liturgy itself? Oh my…no thank you! I thought I had picked something that definitely would not appear in the liturgy.

And that’s one of the “tamer” examples. You should hear a thing called “khobz wal-may” (“bread and water”). I won’t mention the name here, but I should think the composer ought to be sentenced to life prison on bread and water just for writing it.

Hahaha. You are picking out all the reasons why I chose it, and named it “self-consciously Middle Eastern”. I have a hard time truly hating it, but I bet I would if things like that started showing up in the Coptic Orthodox Church! In fact, the much beloved Bishop of Melbourne, HG Bishop Suriel, has said (not in so many words) that the attraction many Coptic youth feel for modern Arabic pop and dance music is mystifying to him, and moreover can be detrimental to their identities as Coptic people. I have to believe that things like this are what he had in mind. Well, actually, that’s not true; technically, it would have been things like this, which I actually think is worse than the Lebanese song (warning: icons and electric guitars and smooth R&B vocals; this is what St. Athanasius was exiled multiple times for? I don’t think so!). This isn’t even Middle Eastern. It’s the Backstreet Boys in Arabic or something, with religious themes. Where’s a vomiting smiley when I need one…

The reason I hate that sort of stuff is because it has a tendency to appear in church under the guise of hymnody. Just like the previous examples. On a non-ecclesiastical level, though, I prefer the Egyptian example to the Mort Rafqa thing.

 

[dzheremi]

Gotcha, but I think the only way either could be called “paraliturgical” would be in an extra-liturgical recital. Neither version would be used by real monks, whether SOC or Maronite. But considering what’s so done in parish churches, even among the SOC, the use of either version liturgically would be acceptable. And in a Maronite venue a vast improvement over most other options.

Yeah, I gotcha. I guess “paraliturgical” might not be the best word, then, but I don’t know what else to call it. I hadn’t even thought of monastic usage, as that’s another world entirely, at least in the Coptic Church. What I meant by “paraliturgical” is religious songs from outside of the liturgy proper but still in some sense belonging to a particular church or liturgical tradition. (How odd: As I was typing this a song by Hayat el-Ghoseini came on my computer, from the very strange “Spiritual Indigenous Songs” LP released in the late 70s, which as far as I remember is connected to some kind of Lutheran something-or-other in Lebanon, featuring a bunch of people I’ve never heard and Zaki Nassif, who does Protestant-y material with the best of them on the LP but as far as I know was Byzantine himself; maybe this tendency to do whatever they want so long as it’s not a liturgy is found among the Byzantines too)

That bring to mind a comment made years ago by a close friend (who is now a bishop), regarding the Syriac qolé: they all, in one way or another, derive from folk music. Some of them, one being t-har gabriel, have a metric rhythm that is pure dabke (or chobi, depending on the dialect). In its way, it’s somewhat reminiscent of the tradition that Coptic chant derives from the Pharaonic temples.

Oh, yeah. I don’t doubt that at all. I seem to remember you and I had a conversation about Syriac maqam and how they relate to Arabic forms of the same. Isn’t that system what the vast majority of Syriac and Arabic folk music is based around?

And that’s one of the “tamer” examples. You should hear a thing called “khobz wal-may” (“bread and water”). I won’t mention the name here, but I should think the composer ought to be sentenced to life prison on bread and water just for writing it.

I’ll take your word for it.

The reason I hate that sort of stuff is because it has a tendency to appear in church under the guise of hymnody. Just like the previous examples. On a non-ecclesiastical level, though, I prefer the Egyptian example to the Mort Rafqa thing.

Really? Wow…you must really hate that thing. I feel kind of bad now for having linked to it for illustrative purposes. Haha. I’ll take the things I linked earlier by Boles Malak, Gudo D-Mor Ephrem, the unnamed Eritrean Zemari, etc. over either, but alright. I don’t like the majority of Arabic taraneem I’ve heard, but that Hany Romany song and others like it are especially grating to me. The only thing that could make it worse to me would be having Ibrahim Ayad singing it…