Questions about Satan

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Some questions about Satan;

1] **If Satan was made a perfect being by God - why did he rebel? If you say that it was because he was proud, let me point out that a perfect being would not have such a fault.

2] Satan would have known that God made him in such a way that he could only be happy with God so why rebel?

3] Satan would know that a rebellion against an all-powerful God would be doomed to faillure - so why try such a foolish thing?

4] After he had been thrown out of Heaven, why did he not repent and why did not a loving God forgive?

5] The story makes Satan a proud angel but why is he supposed to be bad in other ways too. And why are people in Hell tormented? If they choose to join other rebels there why are they not welcomed?

It seems to me that the story does not hang together. Surely the whole story needs to be discarded or modernised?
PS Replies that just say, in so many words, ‘The Church says the story is true’ are not helpful because what needs to be explained is how, in the light of the questions above, it can be.

Nor is it helpful for you to say that you have ‘faith’ - good for you if you have but I would like to use my reason here because my ‘faith’ will not let me believe what seems obviously untrue.]
 
Laurie_Gibson said:
Some questions about Satan;

1] If Satan was made a perfect being by God - why did he rebel? If you say that it was because he was proud, let me point out that a perfect being would not have such a fault..
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Angels were created with free will, just like Adam and Eve. Difference is, Angels were given ONE chance to choose, after that, their will is fixed. Satan and 1/3 of the angels used their free will to reject God.
Laurie_Gibson said:
Satan would have known that God made him in such a way that he could only be happy with God so why rebel?

Again, Adam and Eve acutally walked with God, they rejected Him. Pride, pride is always what causes us to reject our Father
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Laurie_Gibson:
**Satan would know that a rebellion against an all-powerful God would be doomed to faillure - so why try such a foolish thing? **

Pride. Same thing that makes people think they know more than the Church. People sin all the time knowing that they are rejecting God and heaven. Good news for people, we can repent.
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Laurie_Gibson:
After he had been thrown out of Heaven, why did he not repent and why did not a loving God forgive?

The story makes Satan a proud angel but why is he supposed to be bad in other ways too. And why are people in Hell tormented? If they choose to join other rebels there why are they not welcomed

The Angels have a fixed will. They had one chance to decide, after that their fate is fixed for all eternity.

Hell is a place of torment prepared FOR the fallen angels. If humans decide to go there, they get to be punished just like the evil angels will be.

The idea that Satan is somehow “the boss” of heaven is a human fictional invention.
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I recommend a couple of readings to give you food for thought. These don’t “prove” anything about satan and the demons unless you believe, as I do, that the revelation in Mystical City of God is accurate. The links are to online copies.

Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis
A satire about demons and hell but wickedly accurate
members.fortunecity.com/phantom1/books2/c._s.lewis-_the_screwtape_letters.htm

Mystical City of God by Ven. Mary of Agreda
See Chapter 3 (abridged edition)
sacredheart.com/MysticalCityOfGod.htm
 
Karg – shall we take these questions and your answers one at a time?

I ask why Satan rebelled and you say that it was because Satan had free will

But I want to explain why this answer does not work. I know that Satan had a choice and that explains why he was able to rebel but I want an explanation of why he actually did.

[Suppose you ask why I did something that was wrong. ‘Why did he get drunk?’ The answer ‘Because he had free will’ is not enough. You want an explanation of why I used my free will in the way I did, For example ‘Because he wanted to do what everyone else was doing. He did not want to stand out in the crowd’.]

So what is the explanation? The usual answer is because Satan was proud and envious. Now comes the problem. God made Satan as a perfect being of his type. He had free will of course but he could not have had the character defects of pride and envy. He would have been like St Theresa for example [but better] she had free will but because she was a good woman, pride and envy were not in her makeup. So, do you see, that Satan, before he rebelled, could not have had these flaws either. So I ask again – what could have made him rebel?

Mormor - It is kind of you to recommend books - but I cannot talk to a book andI can talk to you - so please tell me what your answer is.

Thanks
 
Let’s first define some terms, so we do not talk past each other.

Define what you mean by a “perfect being”.
 
I am just going to say that I believe that Satan and hell do not exist as they are talked about by Christians. But the 5 reasons in the first post are not the greatest.

Who said Satan was a “perfect being.” In my eyes, if God made perfect beings, every one of them would be exactly the same. So angels can’t be “perfect.”
 
When we are talking about a mind I mean one that has no defect of character and has all the good qualities pertaining to its nature.

At the creation God made everything perfect of its type because he is 100 % good
 
hellopeople

Not at all - each would be perfect of its type, perfect cats, perfect dogs… And there are qualities of human beings , being black, being white, liking chess that make on difference so that some perfect beings would have some and some others.

God being good MUST have made every thing perfect.

Think again
 
Laurie_Gibson said:
When we are talking about a mind I mean one that has no defect of character and has all the good qualities pertaining to its nature.

At the creation God made everything perfect of its type because he is 100 % good
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I would not use the term “perfect”, because only God is perfect. We and the angels are created beings. God created us as good.

That is the answer to your questions, the Angels are created beings. They each have had at one time the ability to choose evil.
 
Everything was made perfect of its type Of course only God has all the perfections to an infinite degree.

But go back to Satan - he was a powerful angel - why would God make him with the character defects like pride?

And, read my previous, of course Satan had free will and could choose evil. The question is WHY DID HE MAKE THIS FREE CHOICE?

Try to answer that question without going off on a tangent.
 
Laurie_Gibson said:
Everything was made perfect of its type Of course only God has all the perfections to an infinite degree.

But go back to Satan - he was a powerful angel - why would God make him with the character defects like pride?

And, read my previous, of course Satan had free will and could choose evil. The question is WHY DID HE MAKE THIS FREE CHOICE?

Try to answer that question without going off on a tangent.
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Where does your “made perfect of its type” come from?

The whole tangent comment, that REALLY makes me want to discuss with you.

God created angels and humans to have free will.

Angels are powerful and intelligent, however, they are not omnicient or omnipotent.

They choose good or evil.

Satan and the other angels picked evil. Why? Because Satan became full of pride and decided he knew more than God.
 
Laurie_Gibson said:
Everything was made perfect of its type Of course only God has all the perfections to an infinite degree.

But go back to Satan - he was a powerful angel - why would God make him with the character defects like pride?

And, read my previous, of course Satan had free will and could choose evil. The question is WHY DID HE MAKE THIS FREE CHOICE?

Try to answer that question without going off on a tangent.
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Well, I think the key thing to remember is that we don’t know. The bottom line is that the angels where given a choice-some made the right one, siding with God, some didn’t.

Kage comes as close to answering the questions as a mortal human can.
 
I don’t quite understand what you’re trying to say, Laurie.

It appears to me that you either think that God is not perfect enough (in that some of his creatures are themselves not perfect) to be God, or you think that He deliberately and maliciously created some creatures to be imperfect, or you think that the Devil is not being treated ‘fairly’ because you think that since he wasn’t created perfect by your standard that his sin is partly God’s fault, and that he doesn’t ‘deserve’ to be eternally punished (and of course, neither does any other being since it’s God’s fault we aren’t perfect).

It’s not the first time that these questions have come up. The Early Church Fathers and theologians throughout the last 2000 years have addressed these questions. Checking places like New Advent (the Catholic Encyclopedia), the on-line Catechism of the Catholic Church, the old Baltimore Catechism, and articles from things like “This Rock” all address these questions, and others. May I respectfully suggest that you check out all these other sources (along, of course, with these forums).

Of course, the main problem as I see it is that you have postulated that a perfect being CANNOT sin. You have also postulated that God created ‘perfect beings’. I myself think that while God created “good” beings, He did not necessarily create beings who were ‘perfect’ if by perfect you are postulating that they have absolutely no capacity to choose other than good. There must be a reason why the ability to choose evil is something that God wishes us to have the opportunity to reject in favor of freely doing good, rather than compelling us to ONLY choose to do good, and thus have no ‘choice’ in the matter at all. Since I’m not God I have no idea what His overall reason is on the subject but I trust Him implicitly.

One final point: the “story” does not need to be modernized or rejected, as though the only two choices regarding a subject that you find a ‘problem’ are to change it to something you’ll accept, or get rid of it. Truth does not need to be ‘modernized’ or to be ignored. People need to adjust themselves to truth, not vice versa.
 
Thanks for your kind replies;

Kage Ar
**
Before the Fall, God is supposed to have made everything perfect. He must have done because he is good. However, what do we mean by perfect? We cannot mean have every good property to an infinite degree because that would make us all like God – impossible. Well the usual Catholic interpretation * is that we are all perfect specimens of whatever it is we are. A perfect dog or whatever. A perfect dog would have the maximum amount of power that such a dog should have – and this would not be infinite.

According to the story some angels led by Satan choose evil. Because Satan was ‘full of pride’ but why was he so? A good and all-powerful God would not have made him with this defect.*

So we have.

Satan had free will to he could choose evil and he did so.
But what was the reason he used his reason to make this choice?
Because he was ‘full of pride’.
But what caused him to be so?
The good God who made him? – impossible! He just became so? – not an explanation! Nothing at all? – Incoherent!

Rascalperson

You can of course say that there is some reason but you do not know what it is. But an alternative, if the story does not hold up is to reject all or some of the story.

Tantum tantum

I try and answer your points one at a time. Your comments in green, replies in blue.

It appears to me that you either think that God is not perfect enough (in that some of his creatures are themselves not perfect) to be God, or you think that He deliberately and maliciously created some creatures to be imperfect, or you think that the Devil is not being treated ‘fairly’ because you think that since he wasn’t created perfect by your standard that his sin is partly God’s fault, and that he doesn’t ‘deserve’ to be eternally punished (and of course, neither does any other being since it’s God’s fault we aren’t perfect).

I think none of these things. I think the story is contradictory and so cannot be true.

It’s not the first time that these questions have come up. The Early Church Fathers and theologians throughout the last 2000 years have addressed these questions. Checking places like New Advent (the Catholic Encyclopedia), the on-line Catechism of the Catholic Church, the old Baltimore Catechism, and articles from things like “This Rock” all address these questions, and others. May I respectfully suggest that you check out all these other sources (along, of course, with these forums).

Sorry I only talk to people, I never swap book references

Of course, the main problem as I see it is that you have postulated that a perfect being CANNOT sin. You have also postulated that God created ‘perfect beings’. I myself think that while God created “good” beings, He did not necessarily create beings who were ‘perfect’ if by perfect you are postulating that they have absolutely no capacity to choose other than good. There must be a reason why the ability to choose evil is something that God wishes us to have the opportunity to reject in favor of freely doing good, rather than compelling us to ONLY choose to do good, and thus have no ‘choice’ in the matter at all. Since I’m not God I have no idea what His overall reason is on the subject but I trust Him implicitly.

Let me answer carefully. St Michael has free will but, because he is perfectly good, he will never use his free will to do wrong. If a story claimed he had done wrong we could refute it by pointing out that he would not have had a reason that would have led him to make a choice.

In a pre-fall world Satan has free will and could if he so choose do evil, but he has no motive to do it and therefore would never have chosen it. He is not compelled not to do evil but he has no reason to chose it. [Compare – I have free will and could mug old ladies but I never will because I have no reason to do so and lots to refrain]

Of course this does lead directly to the problem of where evil came from. There is no way it could have arisen. But it has. So the story must be mistaken then

One final point: the “story” does not need to be modernized or rejected, as though the only two choices regarding a subject that you find a ‘problem’ are to change it to something you’ll accept, or get rid of it. Truth does not need to be ‘modernized’ or to be ignored. People need to adjust themselves to truth, not vice versa

Fine words and correct, but one small flaw. We are discussing if the story of Satan IS true.

Hellopeopleperson

Don’t I know the problem!! In the Garden of Eden there was no sciatica

I am going away for a fortnight now and will look with interest at your replies when I return.

Laurie**
 
Satan was never perfect nor was he ever perfectly good. No being is perfect but God.

Without sin does not mean perfect. Good does not mean perfect.

Where do you get the idea that a creation can be perfect?
 
Laurie_Gibson said:
Mormor - It is kind of you to recommend books - but I cannot talk to a book andI can talk to you - so please tell me what your answer is.

Thanks
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Well, it’s not my answer. It comes from the Blessed Mother. I’ll give you the gist of the revelation but you should really read the chapter yourself. It’s short.

God revealed His plan to the angels that He would create humans and He would incarnate the Son of God as a human. He told the angels that they would have to worship the God/man. Not only would the God/man be above the angels but so would His fully human mother. Lucifer wanted to be the Christ and his pride and envy prevented him from submitting to God’s will for the whole of creation. He could not accept being subject to humanity. Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels rebelled, they fought a war with Michael and the good angels. They lost and were banished to hell.
 
Mormor
Your story says that Lucifer had ‘pride and envy’. How could a good God make a being with these character flaws/

Kage Ar
Some reasoning for you.

God is 100% good and 100% powerful. Therefore if he makes an X he will make an X with no flaws. He has the power and as he is 100% good that is what he will want to do. The X he makes will be a ‘perfect X’. By perfect I mean having all the essential properties necessary to being an X to the degree that a perfect X would have.

But if this reasoning is not to your taste why not deal with the more particular question, ’Why would a good and all powerful God create Satan with the character flaws of pride and envy?’

All the best’

Laurie

Away for a while now - back in 10 days
 
Because God created angels with a type of free will. Part of free will is chosing pride or chosing envy or chosing sloth or chosing anger or chosing lust… free will = choice.
 
Laurie_Gibson said:
Mormor
Your story says that Lucifer had ‘pride and envy’. How could a good God make a being with these character flaws/

Kage Ar
Some reasoning for you.

God is 100% good and 100% powerful. Therefore if he makes an X he will make an X with no flaws. He has the power and as he is 100% good that is what he will want to do. The X he makes will be a ‘perfect X’. By perfect I mean having all the essential properties necessary to being an X to the degree that a perfect X would have.

But if this reasoning is not to your taste why not deal with the more particular question, ’Why would a good and all powerful God create Satan with the character flaws of pride and envy?’

All the best’

Laurie

Away for a while now - back in 10 days
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As I said, the story is not mine and I only gave you the flavor not the details. You’ll have to read and ponder the story for yourself, if in fact you are truly interested in the questions rather than the argument.
 
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