Questions about Sedevacantism stuff

[Glorthac]

Alright, I’m trying to get deeper in my faith, but whenever I go do something like… try to listen to Catholic Hymns online, I run into Sedevacantist websites. Now, if the website says its Sedevacantist, I’ll leave.

But some of these websites don’t clearly say they’re Sedevacantist. Some of them I still don’t know if they are or not, they only say they’re “Traditional Catholic”.

So my question is, let’s say I like a hymn on a Sedevacantist website, can I listen to the hymn? And if I find a Novena on a Sedevacantist website, can I pray it?

 

[St_Francis]

I would say that copying a prayer from a sede site or listening to a hymn would be perfectly ok, after all, they remain Catholic despite being on a sede site.

However, be very careful what you read there, esp if you do not have a source for good answers to any questions which may come up. I discuss various issues with a relative who is sede, and so I come into contact with those ideas a lot. They can be persuasive (seductive?), but in the several years I have been doing this, I have always found explanations other than the sede explanation, but sometimes I needed a lot of help!

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

I think that you are worrying to much. You aren’t even contributing to their website in any way.

Think about it this way - you probably purchase many things from large corporate companies - in these cases, you are directly contributing to these godless men and women that are abusing child labor, etc, etc…in your case, you’re just listening to a hymn online.

 

[ErichK]

Alright, I’m trying to get deeper in my faith, but whenever I go do something like… try to listen to Catholic Hymns online, I run into Sedevacantist websites. Now, if the website says its Sedevacantist, I’ll leave.

But some of these websites don’t clearly say they’re Sedevacantist. Some of them I still don’t know if they are or not, they only say they’re “Traditional Catholic”.

So my question is, let’s say I like a hymn on a Sedevacantist website, can I listen to the hymn? And if I find a Novena on a Sedevacantist website, can I pray it?

There shouldn’t be anything wrong with that. The majority of sedevacantist stuff out there like prayers and hymns are just the traditional Catholic prayers and hymns that were in use pre-Vatican II and are still used by folks such as the FSSP who are in full communion with Rome.

For example, the “Official Catholic Bible” is the New American Version or the New English Version, and most sedevacantists go through the Douay-Rheims version. The Douay-Rheims version is perfectly acceptable to use, as is the NAV.

However, you will definitely want to clarify with your priest or someone familiar with the subjects if you read things concerning the Pope and the politics of Vatican II. A lot of that stuff is blown out of proportion. Yet, for the most part, prayers, hymns, imagery, etc., are all perfectly safe to say, listen to, and look at

 

[Nowhere_Man]

There is nothing wrong with using things from a Sede website, so long as it doesn’t directly espouse sedevacantism.

 

[Cristiano]

There is nothing wrong with using things from a Sede website, so long as it doesn’t directly espouse sedevacantism.

I think that this is an overly relaxed statement. A person should not put his faith at risk by exposing himself to false information. A lot of secular organizations take advantage of disinformation to propagate wrong ideas, I do not see why some religious groups would not do the same. By the time a person starts to espouse sedevacantism, he is already too much into poor thinking. The same prayers and information can be found on other web sites. My suggestion is that as soon as the OP finds that he is visiting a sedevacantist site he should jump to another site no matter what. Avoiding opportunities of sin is always a good policy.

 

[malphono]

So my question is, let’s say I like a hymn on a Sedevacantist website, can I listen to the hymn? And if I find a Novena on a Sedevacantist website, can I pray it?

Yes, of course you can. There’s no problem if you’re looking for a prayer or an audio clip of a hymn or some Gregorian Chant, etc. Unfortunately, those are sometimes the only places one can find certain traditional prayers or hymns. Nothing wrong with that at all. If it’s a free file, that is. If they want money for any prayer texts or hymns, look elsewhere or do without. Keep in mind, though, that those sites are like any other commercial site: they want your money.

The caveat is that, even if they’re offering texts and hymns gratis, they’re still trying to '‘sell’ something: in their case it’s their poisoned polemic. Oh, maybe not for money (although they will normally gladly accept cash, checks, credit cards, and paypal in the form of soliciting a “donation”) but it’s a “sell” nonetheless. It’s a waste of time (and possibly dangerous) to get involved with reading their polemic. Seek out the prayer or hymn you are looking for and know is real, (and available for free), and ignore their sales spiel (and their polemic).

 

[avus]

I encourage one site for outstanding traditional Catholic music - daughtersofmary.net/music.php - even though they are SSPV (not SSPX) and so are quasi-sede (they take no official position but rather leave the question open to personal opinion). I have all of their CDs and can attest that you will find no equal anywhere.

That said, I completely agree with the earlier posts that one needs to tread lightly through all sede sites to avoid their position statements regarding the papal chair.

 

[Nowhere_Man]

I think that this is an overly relaxed statement. A person should not put his faith at risk by exposing himself to false information. A lot of secular organizations take advantage of disinformation to propagate wrong ideas, I do not see why some religious groups would not do the same. By the time a person starts to espouse sedevacantism, he is already too much into poor thinking. The same prayers and information can be found on other web sites. My suggestion is that as soon as the OP finds that he is visiting a sedevacantist site he should jump to another site no matter what. Avoiding opportunities of sin is always a good policy.

No, it was just a very quickly written statement; I had to leave for school.

I agree, sedevacantism and sites that promote it are VERY dangerous. However, I don’t see a problem with using sedevacantist sources for traditional prayers, hymns, etc, if you have enough personal conviction to ignore (? not the best word) the sedevacantist promotion.

As an example, I listen to the Daughter’s of Mary’s choir because I think they sound extraordinarily beautiful, but they are sedevacantist and I just ignore any sedevacantist teaching that comes from them.

Another example, I frequent the website Fish Eaters a lot, and while they have wonderful articles on traditional practices and beliefs, they are a little overly-critical of the Holy Father and the Magisterium, so I will ignore any slightly disparaging comments. (for the record fish eaters isn’t sedevacantist, they’re more along the lines of the SSPX’s beliefs)

 

[Cristiano]

No, it was just a very quickly written statement; I had to leave for school.

I agree, sedevacantism and sites that promote it are VERY dangerous. However, I don’t see a problem with using sedevacantist sources for traditional prayers, hymns, etc, if you have enough personal conviction to ignore (? not the best word) the sedevacantist promotion.

As an example, I listen to the Daughter’s of Mary’s choir because I think they sound extraordinarily beautiful, but they are sedevacantist and I just ignore any sedevacantist teaching that comes from them.

Another example, I frequent the website Fish Eaters a lot, and while they have wonderful articles on traditional practices and beliefs, they are a little overly-critical of the Holy Father and the Magisterium, so I will ignore any slightly disparaging comments. (for the record fish eaters isn’t sedevacantist, they’re more along the lines of the SSPX’s beliefs)

I understand and that is why I just say “over-relaxed”. I tend to do the same thing you do both for posting and going to sites that have plenty of dubious material. I use only the information that I know is orthodox. My concern is that sometime innocent and ignorant people that try to learn more might end up trusting false information from these sites.

 

[crazzeto]

I would say that copying a prayer from a sede site or listening to a hymn would be perfectly ok, after all, they remain Catholic despite being on a sede site.

However, be very careful what you read there, esp if you do not have a source for good answers to any questions which may come up. I discuss various issues with a relative who is sede, and so I come into contact with those ideas a lot. They can be persuasive (seductive?), but in the several years I have been doing this, I have always found explanations other than the sede explanation, but sometimes I needed a lot of help!

Honestly the only argument you need against them is this,

It is a tradition of the Church that the Bishops in Council and the Pope him self (ex cathedra) are infallible. In order to believe their arguments you’d first have to believe that err started wtih Vatican I, which in so far as I know they them selves wouldn’t necessarly support.

 

[Glorthac]

Alrighty! I was asking cause I wasn’t sure if there was some anathema on listening to music owned by sedevacantists or something. Now that I see I can listen to their music, with caution towards their heresy, I’ll do just that. Thanks.

 

[chypmonk]

I’ve been thinking about Sedevacantism stuff for awhile but still need more study. Some things that first struck me were:

1.If Sedevacantism is right, then the Gates of Hell (some translate death) have prevailed and the kingdom of God is no longer the city on the hill that all can recognize.

1. It HAS to be possible for a pope to be a material heretic without losing his office, e.g. St. Pope Zozimus was tricked by Pelagius. Even though it was for a short time and Zozimus may not have caught the subtitle of Pelagius error he in fact was trying to defend Pelagius whom he thought hastily judged, but no one pointed to him as losing his office.
   The definition of Vatican I on infallibility wouldn’t make sense if there were no room for a pope to teach material error. He can only teach on faith and morals infallibly under certain conditions. So the opposite is true then too. A pope may teach error ( although unlikely) if he is not teaching infallibly. Otherwise the gift of infallibility would be everything the pope teaches.

3.Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, Sess. 20, Jan. 22, 1435

ewtn.com/library/councils/Florence.htm#14

[Excommunicates are not to be shunned unless specifically named]

To avoid scandals and many dangers and to relieve timorous consciences, this holy synod decrees that henceforth nobody shall be obliged to abstain from communion with anyone in the administration and reception of sacraments or in any other sacred or profane matters, or to shun someone or to observe an ecclesiastical interdict, on the ground of any ecclesiastical sentence, censure, suspension or prohibition that has been promulgated in general by a person or by the law, unless the sentence, prohibition, suspension or censure was specifically or expressly promulgated or pronounced by a judge against a specified person, college, university, church or place, or if it is clear that someone has incurred a sentence of excommunication with such notoriety that it cannot be concealed or in any way excused in law. For the synod wishes such persons to be avoided in accordance with canonical sanctions. By this, however, it does not intend any relief or favour to those so excommunicated, suspended, interdicted or prohibited.

I gather from this that unless some bishop, priest or Pope is singled out and specifically excommunicated we should assume they retain at least their office, and there may be grounds to assume they are only material heretics and in good faith, although deceived. This shows also the need of the Church to exercise this function, so people don’t go to things like sedevacantism. We, I think are in similar days as when Luther became frustrated with the corruption in the Church sought another way. But as Peter said to our Lord “to whom shall we go?”

1. How do we solve their problem? If there are no validly ordained bishops then how do we solve this problem and keep the Church going?
2. It strikes me a little Gnostic as a movement. Theirs seems to be a secret Church and not clearly seen nor easily found.

these are just some thoughts I need more time to develop them.