Questions about sexuality and morality

[JPIIFan]

f00dl3:

A few pressing questions I have been wanting to have answered but were afraid to ask someone in person…

1. Which is worse of a sin? Looking at and getting “release” from pornogrohpy, or being engaged in premaritial sexual activity?
2. Since it is possible to get aroused by females in bikinis (and since bikini calendars are considered pornogrophy), is going to the beach considered a sinfull practice? Are bikinis and swimsuits immoral?
3. Didn’t god create us in the nude? Wouldn’t our lives be filled with, what we considered, pornogrophy if it were not for Adam sinning and eating the apple?

1. All mortal sins are equal in gravity. What differs is the matter of the sins. This is an important distinction. In so far as they are sins, all mortal sins have exactly the same effect, removing us from the state of grace. You can’t get any worse than that.

That said, the matter of masturbating with pornography is worse than that of pre-marital sexual relations. In fact, even masturbation alone is more grave, let alone in the presence of pornography. This is because the bad context of the sexual act (outside of marriage) is compounded by the perverse nature of the action.

However, the gravity of the sin is far more important than the matter of the sin.

1. Only if it is a near occasion of sin. We are obliged to avoid any temptation that we know is difficult for us to handle easily. If going to the beach is a near occasion of sin for you, don’t do it. If you are a doctor and can look at naked people all day long without serious temptation, don’t worry about it. We cannot avoid all occasions of sin, since that would involve not walking down the street. Focus instead on the near occasions. It will depend on the person. If you find yourself often aroused by swimwear, don’t go to the beach. We’re at war here. We should take it seriously. Modern swimwear tends to be very immodest. At the very least, we should wear modest swimwear to protect others from near occasions of sin.
2. It is certainly true that before the Fall, we were naked. We’ll be naked after the resurrection, too, probably. However, the Fall introduced disordered lust, and now we wear clothes for two reasons. First, we are protecting ourselves from the objectification that comes from other people’s disordered lusts. Second, we are helping them avoid near occasions of sin, as nudity is a near occasion for many people.

Pornography, though, is more than just nudity. It involves the depiction of sexual intercourse. If the catechism is right (and I assume it is), sexual intercourse is intrinsically private. Had there been more people before the Fall, and had Adam and Eve managed to consummate their marriage before the Fall, even they would have hidden behind a bush when having sexual relations.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Flopfoot:

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say?

Except you do seem to be exaggerating the harm done by porn. People have different responses to it, some people can become addicted to it after a while but it’s not like it’s a physiological addiction or anything like that. Many can look once and hardly care, and not look again. Or whatever. What someone looks at wouldn’t cause them to lose their self respect - it’s what they do as a result of their temptation that could cause them to lose their self respect.

How can you classify seeking out and looking at pornography as “temptation”? It’s sin. Period. (Stumbling upon porn when you’re not looking for it is another matter.)

That’s like saying it isn’t sinful for a married man to disrobe a single woman, only sinful for them to actually have sex.

 

[Flopfoot]

Scott Waddell:

It’s a sin against chastity. It is objectively a grave wrong to deliberately look at it and does not require the possibility of becoming addicted to it.

I’m not trying to say that looking at porn is okay. But, I’ve never seen anything that says that looking at it is a grave matter (look above for my post on what I think the CCC is reffering to as grave). Have you got anything besides that CCC quote to support your allegation that looking at porn is a grave matter?

 

[Celtic_FC]

I just want to touch on the first question. I think pornography is worse than premarital sex. I have had premarital sex with my current girlfriend who I am marrying in the next 2 years. I go straight to confession when I fall into any serious sin. Pornography is so base and vile, and it covers a broad range of activities. It is hard to get the images I have seen out of my head.

I am strictly speaking from my experience. Today is the last day I will ever look at it. I promise everyone on these fine messageboards and God mostly that I will die before I look at another obscene picture.

 

[Flopfoot]

Celtic FC - Was wondering, do you realise that you and your girlfriend sin gravely every time you have sex outside of marriage?

Do you also realise why it is wrong - that sex is something sacred and you profane it when you have sex outside of marriage?

Do you understand that it really offends God when you have sex outside of marriage?

All that considered, do you still think that looking at pornography is worse than premarital sex?

Don’t get me wrong - looking at pornography is still bad and it is terrific that you have resolved to never look at it again.

---

Something to consider (for everyone). Pornography is often seen as a ‘gateway’ sin that leads to other sins, similarly to how marajuana is considered a gateway drug leading to other drugs like LSD and heroin. What about premarital sex, then? What is that a gateway to? What worse sin can it lead to? I can’t think of one because the thing is that premarital sex is itself “the end sin”, the grave sin that so many other things lead you towards. Not just pornography - more commonly things like flirting to the point of a scandal, getting yourself into unnecessarily tempting situations, etc.

By definition the gateway drug or gateway sin is less grave than the things it leads to. (Why would anyone care if heroin use led to marajuana use? The worst damage is already done once someone starts using heroin). When comparing looking at pornography to actual sexual sins like masturbation or premarital sex, the actual sexual sin must be the more grave one.

 

[Celtic_FC]

Flopfoot I guess you haven’t seen all that pornography has to offer? If you did, I think you would change your opinion. I have seen enough to know that it is way worse than premarital sex with my future wife.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

First of all, Flop, I agree that premarital sex can be a gateway sin. It could be a gateway to deceitfulness (I myself had this experience), physical aggressiveness, further sexual sin, and – worst of all – pride. Saying that “I don’t need to follow God’s rule about this” sets a precedent, and can lead to much willful sin.

Moving on…

Flopfoot:

By definition the gateway drug or gateway sin is less grave than the things it leads to. (Why would anyone care if heroin use led to marajuana use? The worst damage is already done once someone starts using heroin). When comparing looking at pornography to actual sexual sins like masturbation or premarital sex, the actual sexual sin must be the more grave one.

On the contrary. Pornography is, according to the Catechism, an actual sexual sin:

Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense.

(Note that “the public” sins.)

Celtic makes a good point about how harmful porn can be, although I would consider it less harmful than premarital sex, in many/most cases. I’m not sure that everyone here has a clear idea of what “porn” refers to. If you’re talking Playboy, or Maxim, that is one thing – sinful, but not brutally damaging. But there is awful stuff out there, especially online, and any man who doesn’t take steps to protect his eyes is liable to fall.

And, speaking from experience, this stuff gets in your mind and distorts you. There is no action or response needed – seeking out pornography is a sexual act in itself. It is an avenue for Satan to get a grip on you, and it is a serious sin indeed.

 

[Flopfoot]

Celtic_FC:

Flopfoot I guess you haven’t seen all that pornography has to offer? If you did, I think you would change your opinion. I have seen enough to know that it is way worse than premarital sex with my future wife.

No, I haven’t seen all that pornography has to offer (thank God) but anyway, I still don’t think you understand what a serious issue pre-marital sex is, especially since you make a point of saying that it is with your future wife. It (more or less) doesn’t matter who it’s with it is still premarital sex and still gravely sinful. Understand this - that having premarital sex just once, even if it’s between 2 people on the day before those 2 people get married, if it is done deliberately and with knowledge that it is gravely wrong and is never repented, would get them sent to hell.