Questions about St. George

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  1. *]Was he real?
    *]If so, did he really slay a dragon?
    *]If so, was the dragon a demon or devil?
    *]Does that mean dragons exist?

    These are serious questions but are not meant to demean St. George nor the belief in him. I just wanted to know if there was a real man a long time ago who slew an actual dragon.
 
It’s my impression that St. George was a Roman soldier who was martyred for refusing to offer worship to the pagan gods. I would interpret the legend of his killing a dragon as a metaphor for victory over the devil, or else just as a fanciful addition to the story of this soldier-saint. The pagans of Europe loved dragon-slayer stories and they are actually quite a wholesome thing, the great hero being victorious against a grotesque evil, reminiscent of the Biblical images of the seed of Eve crushing the head the Serpent, God’s power over Leviathan, and St. Michael’s victory over the dragon (Satan), so it’s no surprise that such themes found one way or another to enter medieval Christian legends.

It’s also possible the historical St. George really did, during his career in the Roman military, kill a crocodile whose nesting place was inconvient for the citizens of a town.
 
Barbkw said:
Komodo dragons are real.
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But they don’t live in the Middle East. Crocodiles do (and at one time were more widespread). And as I recall the legend recounts this dragon as having settled down in a spring where the people needed to fetch water and refusing to move (then capturing a damsel that needed to be rescued). If we dismiss the damsel in distress part as a Medieval twist on the story it sounds like a Roman-era equivalent of the person who finds an alligator in his pool and needs to call animal control specialists to get rid of it. There’s a crocodile in our spring! Get a soldier over here to kill it so we can draw our water!
 
St. Patrick is often credited with removing “snakes” from Ireland. Snakes don’t inhabit Ireland.

The “snakes” are symbolic of the pagan belief systems which were once practiced in Ireland prior to St. Patrick’s evangelization.

St. Patrick was physically enslaved in his youth, escaped their captivity and then returned to bring them Christ.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick
 
They could have inhabited Ireland. Were you there?

The point is that St. Patrick was in Ireland and he drove the snakes out.

It’s proper to say that snakes, no longer inhabit Ireland.
 
Not_Sure said:
They could have inhabited Ireland. Were you there?

The point is that St. Patrick was in Ireland and he drove the snakes out.

It’s proper to say that snakes, no longer inhabit Ireland.
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The fossil record suggests they never inhabited Ireland. Unlike Great Britain, which for most of its history was connected to mainland Europe, Ireland has been an island since before snakes existed. With the exception of sea snakes, which only live in the Pacific and Indian oceans, most snakes can’t swim the long distances needed to cross over to Ireland.

It is rather amazing to me that apparently snakes have not been introduced, whether accidentally or intentionally, by humans to Ireland yet. Perhaps St. Patrick would indeed be a good saint to pray to that such a thing never happens.
 
The fossil record is far from being exhaustively known. Also note that the Coelcanth fish is known to be in the fossil record 400 million years ago. Yet a live one was caught this century. Note also the Ape was only recently (relatively) speaking accepted to exist by European culture. Many are the mysteries yet to be discovered. Like the Giant Squids that have been found to exist.

The Romans have been known to to hunt a specific large cat to extinction. Who can say for certain about large lizards/dragons? Note also the very, very large snakes in florida and other places.

So yes. St. George is quite valid IMHO. As for St. Patrick it is certainly quite possible.
 
Yes, Saint George is real. He was from the Roman town of Lydda, and was a soldier in the Roman Army under Diocletian. Diocletian was killing Christians and sacrificing them to pagan roman gods. Saint George was given the opportunity to convert and was bribed with land, money, etc… but still he didn’t convert. Diocletian eventually had Saint George killed, and he died as a martry. Saint George was a true soldier of Christ.

The story about Saint George slaying the dragon is a legend, and the story was brought back to Europe from the Crusaders.

His Feast Day is April 23.



St. George, pray for us!
 
Nimzovik said:
The fossil record is far from being exhaustively known. Also note that the Coelcanth fish is known to be in the fossil record 400 million years ago. Yet a live one was caught this century. Note also the Ape was only recently (relatively) speaking accepted to exist by European culture. Many are the mysteries yet to be discovered. Like the Giant Squids that have been found to exist.

The Romans have been known to to hunt a specific large cat to extinction. Who can say for certain about large lizards/dragons? Note also the very, very large snakes in florida and other places.

So yes. St. George is quite valid IMHO. As for St. Patrick it is certainly quite possible.
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Obviously. Whenever we are talking empirical science we are dealing with probabilities, never absolute certainty. It just becomes tedious to always say that explicitly when we know things with sufficient certainty that a contradictory hypothesis becomes unreasonable to seriously entertain.
 
Not_Sure said:
They could have inhabited Ireland. Were you there?

The point is that St. Patrick was in Ireland and he drove the snakes out.

It’s proper to say that snakes, no longer inhabit Ireland.
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The “snakes” that St. Patrick drove out were Satan (the embodied snake from Genesis) and his idol worship systems.
 
There are two possibilities:
  1. It is believed to be symbolic of the faith and courage of the Saint who overpowered the devil.
  2. There is also an Italian legend that the Saint was rescuing a noble damsel who was offered to the monster as his daily quota of food.
edappallystgeorge.com/stgeorge.htm
 
**AelRed Minor wrote:"**Obviously. Whenever we are talking empirical science we are dealing with probabilities, never absolute certainty. It just becomes tedious to always say that explicitly when we know things with sufficient certainty that a contradictory hypothesis becomes unreasonable to seriously entertain."

And: “The fossil record suggests they never inhabited Ireland. Unlike Great Britain, which for most of its history was connected to mainland Europe, Ireland has been an island since before snakes existed. With the exception of sea snakes, which only live in the Pacific and Indian oceans, most snakes can’t swim the long distances needed to cross over to Ireland.”

Italics mine

IMHO I just find it to be a little arrogant and grandiose for science (not you dear Poster) to assert that snakes have never inhabited Ireland. 1) I am sure not every inch or every Layer of the fossil record of Ireland has been surveyed. 2) We are talking vast amounts of time. 3) When science has made such sweeping claims historically they have been proven wrong at too great a frequency to be taken that seriously.4) miscellaneous cultures that visited/inhabited Ireland could have imported snakes especially so if they were snake worshippers. 🤷 5) Given the Anti - Deity posture of science for the most part, (just try and discuss Intelligent Design with the Scientific community in public) I suspect that scientific community is not above mainting the integrity of their paradigm -at what cost who can say? 6) climate change like the ‘Little Ice Age’ could have caused mass migration and or extinction -perhaps hibernation?
 
What is apostolic about St. Patrick’s mission, had he actually spent his lifetime wondering the area now called Ireland, for the sole purpose of killing every snake on the island?

If that would even be possible for one man, in his lifetime, if that island had a normal population of snakes living on it.
 
St. George existed, he probably was a Roman soldier martyred for his faith. He probably did not slay a real dragon. If you look, the imagery of George slaying a dragon is very very similar to pre-Christian imagery of a pagan thracian hero who killed a dragon.

This is the pagan image
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

compared to

http://www.stgeorgechurchwaimanalo.com/images/Icon.StGeorge-3.jpg
 
These types of analogies fail to convince me. I have seen too many hokey analogies in regard to the Blessed Virgin and other Pagan Virgin Godesses for me to take these kinds of comparisons regarding St. George seriously IMHO.
 
Nimzovik said:
These types of analogies fail to convince me. I have seen too many hokey analogies in regard to the Blessed Virgin and other Pagan Virgin Godesses for me to take these kinds of comparisons regarding St. George seriously IMHO.
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I can’t say that I blame you to a degree for feeling as such, but it is undeniable that early Christianity adapted to and from aspects of paganism to make conversion to the faith easier for the Gentiles. We are reminded of that in the season of the Nativity most clearly, as the date of this feast was selected to supplant the pagan feast of the unconquered sun.

That said, as an Eastern Catholic who remains inspired by iconography, I suppose I have desensitized to this sort of thing over the years. Icons of St. George clearly show him slaying a dragon-like creature. In explaining the writing of the icon, the slain dragon represents evil (working through St, George’s military enemies) being conquered by virtue of his unswerving faith in the Cross of Christ. Neither the imagery nor the source are more important than the message and the reflection on the life and accomplishments of the saint as portrayed.
 
Nimzovik said:
These types of analogies fail to convince me. I have seen too many hokey analogies in regard to the Blessed Virgin and other Pagan Virgin Godesses for me to take these kinds of comparisons regarding St. George seriously IMHO.
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Christianity and Paganism did not exist separate from each other. The Church took popular imagery from paganism and used it to express the full truth of Christianity. So a thracian god becomes St. George. Pagan wells in Ireland become holy wells of the saints. Saturnalia becomes Christmas. There is nothing wrong with this. It just shows the continuity between civilizations. That Christianity was truly inculturated into Classical Civilization.
 
Formosus said:
St. George existed, he probably was a Roman soldier martyred for his faith. He probably did not slay a real dragon. If you look, the imagery of George slaying a dragon is very very similar to pre-Christian imagery of a pagan thracian hero who killed a dragon.

This is the pagan image
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_hdgmnPXrc...kmNMxyms/s400/Thracian+Hero+Stela,+Serres.JPG

compared to

http://www.stgeorgechurchwaimanalo.com/images/Icon.StGeorge-3.jpg
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To my eyes, that’s a guy on a horse with his dog killing a wild boar.
 
Fine - pagan traditions were co -opted. A la Christmas tree. That still does not mean we are sure which is which and what is what when when was when. To be extreme, by extension. we could say Islam co - opted the (pagan to Muslims) Christian tradition. What we need is hard core evidence of what exactly happenend when. To simply point to similarities of pagan traditions is a bit too much license. Otherwise all is midrash.
 
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