Questions about St Joachim, St Anne, the Immaculate Conception and the theology of Mary

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So I read another interesting piece by Father Longenecker about the Virgin Mary. Before converting to Catholicism, my previous faith didn’t emphasize much about the Virgin Mary. I can’t pretend to understand all of the Catholic theology behind her other than what I’ve heard at mass.

The piece here describes the origin of the Blessed Virgin Mary, her parents, and lots of theology.

https://dwightlongenecker.com/st-joachim-st-anne-and-the-immaculate-conception/

Quotes…
St Joachim and St Anne are the parents of the Blessed Virgin Mary. We know about their life and the early life of the Blessed Virgin from an early Christian apocryphal writing called The Protoevangelium of James AKA The Gospel of James.
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Why are Joachim and Anne important? Because they were the parents of the Mother of God who was immaculately conceived. For those who are fuzzy on the details, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is the belief that Mary was conceived naturally through the union of her parents, but that God, at that moment, supernaturally preserved her from the stain of original sin.
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The theologian John MacQuarrie has an interesting take on the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. While acknowledging God’s hand intervening in the action, he also acknowledges the involvement of the human dimension and the human will conforming to God’s providence. In other words, Joachim and Anne were responding to God’s plan and living their lives within his will and call to holiness. The Blessed Mother was conceived naturally, but that natural conception also had to be full of grace and truth.
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Our Lady’s perfection therefore was not only the supernatural action of God, but it was a fulfillment of human perfection within the history of the Hebrew people. For 2,000 years God had been bringing the Hebrew people to this point–where two saintly people would bring forth the one who would be the Mother of the Redeemer. What does it matter? Well, it matters because marriage is blessed and the marriage union is sacred. If God uses this most natural and basic human action–sexual intercourse–to fulfill his work in the world, then all marriage is sacred…
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Questions…
  1. He is references a theologian John MacQuarrie who refers to St Joachim and St Anne from an apocryphal source. This seems reasonable, but what are the rules for Catholics to refer to apocryphal sources like the Gospel of James?
  2. Is traditional Catholic teaching that (from the article) “For 2,000 years God had been bringing the Hebrew people to this point–where two saintly people would bring forth the one who would be the Mother of the Redeemer.” Is it instead something that is open to interpretation by Catholics? I haven’t heard this view at mass.
  3. Theologically he mentions several consequences of this. For example, the reason why sexual sin is damaging, and the duty of parents and children to each other. Are there other consequences of this theology?
  4. John MacQuarrie was an Anglican priest. What is the Catholic views of John MacQuarrie, if any?
A heavy list of questions. Any responses or thoughts would be appreciated.
 
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St. Joachim and St. Anne are saints in the Catholic Church, with their own feast day (it was just a few days ago), churches named after them etc. This means that the Church accepts that they existed, were holy people, and were Mary’s parents. It’s considered sacred tradition since the canonical New Testament does not mention Mary’s parents and their story is only told in apocrypha (the Gospel of James).

The rest of the stuff you wrote is just some theologian giving his views. It’s not something coming officially from the Church. If you want Church theology, then read the official theology coming out of the Vatican.

I never heard of John MacQuarrie and I have no interest in reading or considering an Anglican theologian when we have plenty of our very own Catholic theologians to read. Scholars of theology or those with an interest in Anglican thought may take some interest in his writings for some reason.
 
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If I’ve read the Gospel of James, I don’t think I read the entire thing; just bits and pieces to see what it was like. But like most things, I think it would fall into that “private revelation” category, where you can either pick out the pieces that are useful thought, and leave the rest; or you can dismiss it as “pious fiction” and avoid it entirely. It doesn’t particularly matter.

So, if you wanted to look at its passages on Joachim and Anne, then the first thing you would do is compare and contrast it to other private revelations on the subject, and see how it agrees or differs. The first one that comes to mind is CoG by Bl Maria de Agreda. So on the surface from what you’ve quoted, it matches up pretty well, and doesn’t really differ, so that consistency is a plus in its favor.

So moving on to Q2, you were asking about how God was bringing the Hebrew people to this point. Usually, the perspective is “bringing them the Messiah”, because that’s what Mary’s role has always been: to bring people to her Son. She’s not a stopping point in and of herself; she does not keep anything for herself. Everything is for God. But just as you might read the genealogy of Christ (both of them, and note the differences), you’ll see that it was a very methodical, planned thing. It wasn’t something arbitrary that happened spontaneously— “Well, today’s a good day for the Annunciation! I keep putting it off! I might as well get that off my to-do list.” 🙂 So, recognizing that arranging for the Mother of the Redeemer is an important part of that multi-step process, because God is creating the one ideal woman in the entire world. He didn’t just make her perfect the day before the Annunciation, but he made her perfect from the very beginning of her existence.

I didn’t see the copy/paste about the consequences, so it’s probably just good to let those stand, unless there’s something specific that doesn’t make sense. But the Holy Family as a group existed as a model for us to follow, just as much as Mary : Joseph, Jesus : Mary, and Jesus : Joseph. So our different relationships ought to be informed by their example.

#4, I haven’t heard of him, but two seconds on Google brings up “unquestionably Anglicanism’s most distinguished systematic theologian in the second half of the 20th century.”
 
midori said:
So, if you wanted to look at its passages on Joachim and Anne, then the first thing you would do is compare and contrast it to other private revelations on the subject, and see how it agrees or differs. The first one that comes to mind is CoG by Bl Maria de Agreda.
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Why would you be comparing a nearly contemporary (written in 150) apocrypha about Joachim and Anne with an unapproved private revelation to a beati that happened centuries later? That doesn’t make much sense to me. The apocrypha no doubt has historical value and legitimacy that somebody’s unapproved vision doesn’t have.
 
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Because neither is canonical scripture, so they both ultimately have the same weight. If people like the Gospel of James, they can read the Gospel of James, but it’s not mandatory. If people like Faustina’s Diary, they can read Faustina’s Diary, but it’s not mandatory. If people like The Dialogue, they can read it, but it’s not mandatory, either.

The early Christian writings are full of pious legends. It can be hard to tell the difference between fact and fantasy, because goshdarnit, our religion is based on the premise that God became Man and died for us. 😛 There was nothing in anyone else’s mythology at the time that even dreamed of that kind of a thing happening. 🙂 Gods were usually humans with superpowers. Sometimes they died. And sometimes, when they died, Stuff Happened. But the Stuff Happening was usually not connected to humanity’s redemption and our ultimate resurrection.
 
If both sources have the same weight and we don’t have to believe either one, then comparing them to see if they’re the same is also worthless. If 10 sources that we don’t have to believe all say the same thing, it doesn’t matter. If 10 sources that we don’t have to believe don’t say the same thing, it also doesn’t matter.

Belief in Joachim and Ann is considered Catholic tradition and them being saints and the parents of Mary is endorsed by the Church. We are not free to reject that.

With respect to the generally accepted source for this belief, while it’s true the Gospel of James is not considered canon, it is generally cited as describing the traditional beliefs about Mary’s parents. There are also obvious parallels with the OT stories of parents dedicating their children to the Lord.



While I have nothing against Mary of Agreda - and by the way, I believe she is still a “Venerable” and not yet a “Blessed” as she has not yet been beatified - her unapproved private revelations are not pointed to as summarizing the Catholic tradition that the Church accepts and teaches regarding the parents of Mary. The Gospel of James is. That puts it on a little higher plane than some unapproved private revelation, in my opinion.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
I never heard of John MacQuarrie and I have no interest in reading or considering an Anglican theologian when we have plenty of our very own Catholic theologians to read. Scholars of theology or those with an interest in Anglican thought may take some interest in his writings for some reason.
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I ran out room in my original post; however, this leads me to some of my other questions.
  1. Was Father Longenecker adding anything theologically here or is he just recounting what John MacQuarrie said. It is certainly ok, good, and interesting for Father Longenecker to simply recount what another theologian has said. Is Father Longenecker adding something new?
  2. Probably nobody will know, but have any Catholic theologians anywhere commented on John MacQuarrie’s theological ideas?
 
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midori said:
I didn’t see the copy/paste about the consequences, so it’s probably just good to let those stand, unless there’s something specific that doesn’t make sense.
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I ran out of room. Basically the consequences listed in the opinion piece had to do with the sacredness of the family. This is good, but it was nothing unexpected.

@midori …thanks for the interesting responses!
 
Father Longenecker posted this on July 26th which is when the Catholic church celebrates St Joachim and St Anne. I just caught that thanks to your link.

Thanks for the interesting responses!
 
jack63 said:
Questions…
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Shoot!
  1. He is references a theologian John MacQuarrie who refers to St Joachim and St Anne from an apocryphal source. This seems reasonable, but what are the rules for Catholics to refer to apocryphal sources like the Gospel of James?
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Apocryphal sources are generally used to confirm cultural and historical data. As long as the detail does not contradict Catholic Doctrine.
  1. Is traditional Catholic teaching that (from the article) “For 2,000 years God had been bringing the Hebrew people to this point–where two saintly people would bring forth the one who would be the Mother of the Redeemer.” Is it instead something that is open to interpretation by Catholics? I haven’t heard this view at mass.
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Well, I suppose that’s a novel way of saying that the Hebrew people produced the Messiah. He gets down to the nitty gritty of two people who produced the virgin which gave birth to the Messiah.

I see no problem with it.
  1. Theologically he mentions several consequences of this.
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Of what? Of the conception of children within the marital union?
For example, the reason why sexual sin is damaging, and the duty of parents and children to each other.
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Catholic Doctrine upholds the rule of sex within marriage, only. And, also, the Commandment to respect one’s parents and the rule to love one’s children.
Are there other consequences of this theology?
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The consequences of Catholic Theology concerning the family are the raising of virtuous citizens.
  1. John MacQuarrie was an Anglican priest. What is the Catholic views of John MacQuarrie, if any?
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The Catholic Church does not delve into personalities. There may be Catholics, especially some in the Anglican Catholic community, who have heard of him.
A heavy list of questions. Any responses or thoughts would be appreciated.
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I hope that helps.
 
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You know this really is the first time I’ve ever heard Mary’s “Origin Story”. It appears to be pretty important, and I’m not sure why I haven’t heard it until now. This parallels many other places in scripture where a woman who was barren had a child. I appreciate people’s responses and the initial Blog that got me interested. I wonder why I hadn’t heard this story before.
 
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You probably haven’t heard it before because it’s not considered canon and we don’t have to believe it.

All we have to believe is that Mary had two parents, whom we traditionally call Joachim and Anne (I note that we have no way of knowing for sure if those are their real names; “Anne” is an obvious parallel to “Hannah” the mother of Samuel in the OT) and they were holy people, and Mary was immaculately conceived and obviously brought up to be a holy, God-fearing virgin girl based on her actions in canonical Scripture.

Everything else is “pious legend”.

The Catholic Church is primarily concerned with teaching people what they need to know in order to be Catholics. Mary’s “origin story” other than what I wrote above isn’t required. It’s an “extra”.
 
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I would say it comes from the fact that the Church decided on that canon to begin with. Had it so desired that would be in the Bible. Look everything not in the Bible is worthless. You would actually be surprised how many traditions come from or are depicted in these apocryphal books.
 
Prodigal1984 said:
Look everything not in the Bible is worthless.
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Don’t think I agree here. I mean the Catholic church has a day honoring Sts. Joachim and Anne, parents of Mary. Maybe I misunderstood what you’re trying to say.
 
I said just because it isn’t in the Bible doesn’t mean it can’t be a real thing.

Actually many works not in the Bible are used to back up Church teaching, such as the Didache.
 
I did a quick Google search with the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding the “The Gospel of James”, but I didn’t come up with anything easily.

What does the CCC say about the Gospel of James or the apocryphal writings in general? Also, does the CCC say anything about Mary’s parents besides, as Bear said, she had two parents.

As an aside, is their a good online tool out there that allows a specific targeted search of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? I’ve had only limited success with Google alone. When I converted they gave me this big book called the Catechism. Sadly, I haven’t opened it until I started posting here…but good for posters here to get me interested…
 
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jack63 said:
He is references a theologian John MacQuarrie who refers to St Joachim and St Anne from an apocryphal source. This seems reasonable, but what are the rules for Catholics to refer to apocryphal sources like the Gospel of James?
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Because of the Tradition of the Church. The deposit of faith is not from the Bible alone.

I’ll leave your other questions to individuals on this thread that are way smarter than me lol!

ZP
 
jack63 said:
What does the CCC say about the Gospel of James or the apocryphal writings in general?
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I don’t think it says anything. (Open to correction on that if I’ve missed something.) The Catechism is focused on teaching people what they need to know/ believe in order to be Catholic. Apocryphal writings aren’t a necessary part of the picture, any more than approved private revelations are, so the Catechism isn’t going to spend time addressing either of those things. It’s already several inches thick as you said.
Also, does the CCC say anything about Mary’s parents besides, as Bear said, she had two parents.
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Not to my knowledge. It doesn’t even really get into Mary’s parentage. It’s more concerned with teaching the Marian dogmas and emphasizing Mary’s role in Christ’s life as shown in the Gospels and discussed in “Lumen gentium” than it is in getting into Mary’s “pious legend” history before the Annunciation. Again this is because Catholics need to know and believe in the Marian dogmas and in the Creed (which mentions Mary). They don’t need to believe pious legends.
As an aside, is their a good online tool out there that allows a specific targeted search of the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
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The Vatican has a search engine based on word lists here. Just follow the directions.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_FA.HTM
 
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