Questions about the charismatic renewal...

[AntoniusVII]

PLeeD,
I am STILL waiting to hear about “speaking in tongues” the way I defined it above and previously - making sounds that absolutely no one understands.

The answer to this question can be found at 1 Cor. 14:13.

I would recommend read all of 1st Corinthians (especially chapters 12,13,14), and use a study Bible. I recommend the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible - New Testament.

What to do about the abuses of the charismatic gifts? See 1 Cor. 14:13.

It is important to note that the charismatic gifts are “gratuitous” , they are meant to build up the Church. The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit: wisdom, understanding, counsel fortitude, knowledge, piety, fear (the sacramental graces) are meant (mainly) for personal salvation.

Peace be with you…

 

[ClayPots47]

thirddec,

I think your post is excellent - well-reasoned and charitable as well.

P.S. - I am still waiting for someone to tell me why speaking in gibberish accomplishes anything . . . If the Holy Spirit wants to communicate something to someone, why make the speaker use sounds that no one, including the speaker, can understand?

Is this so obvious that I am missing something here???

Why is infused contemplation silent? What does it accomplish? If the Holy Spirit wants to communicate something to someone, why make the prayer use no sounds that no one, including the prayer, can hear, let alone understand?

Saints have been caught up in praising God with tongues (see link in post #14 by me regarding Saints and tongues). Saints have been caught up in infused contemplation. In both, the language of the Holy Spirit speaks to us, we speak to Him directly from the soul, bypassing human faculties. There is nothing to ‘understand’, the Spirit blows where He wills. If you talk to contemplatives and charismatics, you will find they share similar experiences from the two different types of prayer: Joy, Peace, Consolation. Both have also experienced “dry spells” where God withdraws from them so as to detach them from becoming to dependent on the gifts.

St Paul desired that everyone could pray in Tongues. St Teresa of Avila desired that all could experience Contemplation. Do all pray in Tongues? Do all pray Contemplatively? Did all the Saints pray either way? Can the human spirit be the source? Absolutely! Can the evil spirit be the source? Absolutely! John of the Cross makes this very clear, involving all charisma and mystical experiences. We should not ask for, or desire them, but we should be open. None will happen if we do not yield to them, if they are of the Holy Spirit. True gifts of the Holy Spirit do not draw attention to the self. The virtue of Humility should be present. Because our creator endowed us with Free Will, we are free to not yield to the Holy Spirit. Neither charisms or mystical gifts are necessary to salvation, but when they come from God, they can help us grow closer to God. They are certainly not the only means. Tongues and Contemplation are both grounded in Scripture, what both accomplish is increasing holiness in the person, and drawing them closer to God. Language that we understand is not necessary for either; the soul communicates directly with the Holy Spirit, bypassing the use of the human faculty of speech.

 

[PLeeD]

Last year, I had a wonderful discussion with someone, who may have belonged to an Assemblies of God Church. Forgive my poor memory, but are you that person?

Yes, that was/is me

Pardon me, I do not intend to be prideful, but I do consider proper Catholic Charismatic Renewal as interpreting St. Paul correctly in addition to the writers in the first centuries. This discussion partner belonged to a church whose appreciation of the Holy Spirit and His gifts was so similar to the Catholic practice that the only things seemed to be missing were the Seven Catholic Sacraments, including the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Yes, it sounds like your group does things the same way that we are in regards to using the gift of tongues. It only makes sense when the practice and purpose of tongues is so clearly spelled out in scripture. It’s no wonder our experiences are similar. There really shouldn’t be any guesswork involved.

My pastor has been really diligent about doing it correctly. In fact, use of that gift in our church has greatly diminished since our previous conversation. I’d say the pendulum might have swung a little to far away from using the gifts. But at least now it’s really powerful when it happens. A couple of years ago it got to the point of being formulaic and predictable. It was all according to Paul’s teaching, but just didn’t have the power it should. At that point you have to start wondering if it’s truly inspired.

Seems like a lot of people carry a chip around on their shoulder when it comes to this issue. It’s like there is a veil over their eyes, and they aren’t willing to see past it.

 

[ClayPots47]

Speaking of Monsignor Vincent Walsh. This is the title of one of the best books on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church** ISBN: 0-87029-033-9**

by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh
Key of David Publications

Agreed! My foundation in the Renewal was in the Philadelphia Archdiocese, Msgr Walsh served many years there. His books were used extensively. I spent many years involved in a parish group and the diocesan Young Adult activities. Cardinals Krol and Bevilacqua were very supportive and presided over the yearly regular and young adult rallies. That book, plus his Life in the Spirit Seminar, still sit in my bookcase.

 

[ClayPots47]

I did not think I had to explain what I meant by “gibberish”.

Speaking a language that one is not familiar with, but is nevertheless a language, is NOT gibberish, and I never said it was.

I defined “gibberish” as some unintelligible utterance that NO ONE UNDERSTANDS, INCLUDING THE SPEAKER.

Now, with what I thought was so obvious out of the way, can someone please explain to me the purpose behind the Holy Spirit supposedly causing someone to utter sounds from which NO ONE can discern any meaning?

P.S. - and I will restate what I said earlier: I attended a fundamentalist service with a friend and during the service, one person in the audience walked up to the stage, got down on all fours, and began barking like a dog. The audience erupted with “Praise God” and “Thank you Jesus”, and I am left wondering, “What in the world is going on?”

If barking like a dog is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, I want no part of it . . . sorry.

So you dismiss the whole experience based on what you observed in a Protestant Fundamentalist church? Do I understand you correctly? I’ve never seen anybody bark like a dog and people praise it in any Charismatic Catholic prayer group or Mass that I have attended. I don’t think that is acceptable among Assemblies of God Charismatics either. I am aware that some of the extreme Pentecostal and ‘Holiness’ churches tend to exaggerate the charisms and get caught up in the whole ‘emotional’ aspect of the experience.

Does this mean such an even wouldn’t happen during a Catholic Charismatic event? No, because the human spirit and evil spirit can act. But such an event would not be praised as coming from God, and if a priest present, he would intervene and test the spirits. The person yielding to charism, must stop at the command of a priest, or the charism is not of God. Many years ago, when living in another state, I attended a Charismatic Healing Mass and Day of Recollection at a neighboring parish. We had an amazing holy priest from Nigeria (who’s name I cannot recall) speak at the event. He had the charism of perfume, even the water in his holy water bottle, which he doused each of us in as we came up to be prayed over, gave off the fragrance of citrus.

This priest was supported by his bishop, and had permission of the diocese I was in, to conduct the event. Many Rested in the Spirit as they were prayed over. Like many of the official diocesan Charismatic events, seminarians from the diocesan seminary assisted as catchers. There was a woman who was acting a bit strange, making strange noises. When she was prayed over, she fell to the ground and began making guttural sounds, and tugged and pulled at her clothing. The priest from Nigeria ordered her to cease, she actually screamed and grabbed at him. The seminarians had to carry her out of the room and take her to a private location.

My friends and I knew some of the seminarians, and we later inquired about her. They explained that the priest believed she may have been suffering Demonic Obsession, for she began behaving strangely the moment he poured the holy water on her and began to pray. They and the parish pastor were attending to her, and would report the matter fully to the Archbishop. No one said “Praise God” or “Thank you Jesus”, we all knew there was a different spirit at work here. Getting down on all fours, and barking like a dog, would not be seen as normal and acceptable in Catholic Charismatic events under the auspices of the diocese.

 

[gtrenewed]

gtrenewed,

I cannot help that protestants might take offense if I say that my faith is the one, true faith. If I did not feel thatl, why remain Catholic?

True, but you miss the point. It seems ok if you talk with passion but when a Charismatic does, they are being condenscending and holier than thou.

I don’t think it is condescending or vulgar (and I certainly don’t intend it to be) when I question the practices of people both in and out of our Church, when they act in a manner that is not “recognized” by our Church as valid. I am not saying the Church says that speaking in tongues is invalid - but that is not the same as saying it is.

It is good to seek answers. If you seek you will find that Pope JohnPaul2 among others in the Vatican have validated the Charismatic Renewal but what you are seeing on protestant television is not the Renewal.

Now in every instance where I say I do not lend credence to such acts, I am sure you will say that I am not being “Christ like”.

No, but charging that a fellow parishioner is acting holier than thou just because they belong to a group that you do not understand may not be.

But I have never confused truth with charity. I have no problem telling anyone who happens to be around me that the Catholic Church is the one true church established by Christ while he was on earth. Now that may sound presumptuous and even braggadocious, but think about it - if I didn’t feel that way, why remain Catholic? Do I believe that all salvation flows through the Catholic Church? Again, yes I do - because the Church has infallibly taught that it does.

Truth is better given with charity unless you just enjoy strife and contention. Oh yeah we’re on the CA forums.

I would be judgmental if I told someone I thought they were going to Hell.

If that someone was against Christ wouldn’t that be the truth?

I am NOT being judgmental when I question the veracity of someone barking like a dog and claiming the Holy Spirit is in them. Because as I said earlier (and another poster agreed with me): I have encountered charismatics who take a condescending attitude towards those of us who do not worship in such an animated manner. Although they may not come out and say it, the looks and the smirks tell the story that they feel sorry for me because I do not have the Holy Spirit in me like they do.

That is not the Charismatic Renewal. Barking is certainly a false charism proferred by a protestant sect that quite frankly are shams. Some sincere people get caught up in it but if they are seeking God they will come out of it but the leaders seem beyond reach.

It may sound harsh, but I will never apologize for not running up and down the aisle in Church during Mass, shouting “Praise be to God” or “Halleluja”. I have always tried to take my “cues” from watching the Holy Fathers, and I have never seen any of them become animated so that they appear to have lost their minds. They worship with reverence AND deference.

Last Sunday the sick were anointed during mass. Just imagine if one of those anointed were healed instantly. Now that is worthy of shouting out praises to God. As a matter of fact they did just that when Jesus healed them.

If you think I made any of the above things up for effect in this post, go to Youtube and type in “Barney Mass” “Halloween Mass” “Liturgical dancing” or “Mass abuses”. I hope your reaction would be the same as mine - profound sadness.

Sadly, I don’t have to but please take seriously what I and others have said here about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. We are told that there will be tares among the wheat in the church. Please do not condemn a whole movement for the actions of some tares.

 

[ClayPots47]

It may sound harsh, but I will never apologize for not running up and down the aisle in Church during Mass, shouting “Praise be to God” or “Halleluja”. I have always tried to take my “cues” from watching the Holy Fathers, and I have never seen any of them become animated so that they appear to have lost their minds. They worship with reverence AND deference.

If this is happening during a Charismatic Mass, someone needs to inform the pastor, or even the bishop. Having spent many years involved in Charismatic Renewal, I have not witnessed anything even remotely close to that. “Praise be to God” or “Halleluja” are used during prayer meetings, and such meetings may precede the Celebration of the Mass. Typically these exclamations are responses to testimonials from the members of how God has blessed them or someone they know, or when God has answered a prayer or intervened in an event. The only charism you will hear during a Mass, is prayer tongues.

The congregation typically pray in tongues after the opening hymn, but before the penitential rite, and at the elevation of the host and the chalice following the consecration prayers. And if you have ever attended such a liturgy, the host then the chalice are elevated for extended periods of time. Besides tongues, people utter audible ejaculatory prayers. At the diocesan Masses, the archbishop or bishop presiding elevated the host and chalice for as long as 5 minutes. When they were lowered, that was the signal to cease, which everyone uniformly did. A properly done Charismatic Mass is a beautiful liturgy which is respectful towards Our Lord.

The Holy Father may not preside over such a liturgy, but many bishops have. And the Papal Preacher, Father Raniero Cantalamessa, who is a Charismatic, has presided over many. I attended one celebrated by him.

 

[Mikaele]

I have to be honest, most of the time when people ‘receive prayer,’ or get ‘prayed over,’ it just seems like guesswork with all this talk of, ‘I just get this image of you…’ ‘I feel like God is saying…’ etc, I’ve heard people give horoscopes or fortune tell using the same lines.

 

[grannymh]

Yes, that was/is me

Great. My internet connection went out during a storm last night and I am at a public library until I can get the connection repaired. We have some catching up to do.

 

[grannymh]

Agreed! My foundation in the Renewal was in the Philadelphia Archdiocese, Msgr Walsh served many years there. His books were used extensively. I spent many years involved in a parish group and the diocesan Young Adult activities. Cardinals Krol and Bevilacqua were very supportive and presided over the yearly regular and young adult rallies. That book, plus his Life in the Spirit Seminar, still sit in my bookcase.

I need your help.

We need to post about the basis of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal which is our commitment to Jesus as Lord of all. We need to describe Baptism in the Spirit –
We also need to remind people why the Apostles were in the upper room.

I started re-reading Msgr. Walsh book where he mentions that the purpose is not necessarily to receive the Holy Spirit’s gifts though that does happen.

Unfortunately, I can’t get on the internet at home until someone comes to check the connections.

Blessings,
granny

Come Holy Spirit.

 

[Mikaele]

Also, when the Scriptures refer to tongues, it doesn’t mean gibberish. It means a particular language, a tongue (e.g. mother tongue, common tongue etc.)

 

[grannymh]

Also, when the Scriptures refer to tongues, it doesn’t mean gibberish. It means a particular language, a tongue (e.g. mother tongue, common tongue etc.)

Tongues is a general term. St. Paul refers to two separate gifts of the Holy Spirit in which the person yields his natural voice mechanism to the Holy Spirit. In turn, the Holy Spirit uses the voice mechanism to form a special, unique language (tongues) either of prayer to God or to relate God’s message to the community. At all times, the person has control of the language in that the person can stop praying and/or speaking in the tongues given by the Holy Spirit. The person is free to choose when to pray or speak in tongues.

There are two Catholic Sacraments which focus on the Holy Spirit dwelling within the person. These are Baptism and Confirmation. Too often, we forget about the graces of these Sacraments and the powers they give us to deeply love and trust God and then go out into the world and preach the Gospel by the way we love one another.

Both Baptism and Confirmation are only given once. What is known as Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a prayerful experience in which one renews one’s commitment to Jesus Christ and invites the Holy Spirit to stir up dormant graces. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal calls people to accept and use the graces given by the Holy Spirit. We are to live with the same joyful trust in the Lord that adults felt when they first received Sacramental Baptism and Confirmation in the time of St. Paul.

Blessings,
granny

Acts: 1: 1-5

 

[thirddec]

Just a little light humour ; please take it that way lol but maybe some of our charasmatic brothers and sisters should start to enter the debate on the Latin mass and discuss how we can have Latin mass without the need for the population to learn a new language as the Holy Spirit can have the whole congregation understand it anyway.

 

[grannymh]

Just a little light humour ; please take it that way lol but maybe some of our charasmatic brothers and sisters should start to enter the debate on the Latin mass and discuss how we can have Latin mass without the need for the population to learn a new language as the Holy Spirit can have the whole congregation understand it anyway.

LOL
This reminds me of a pastor’s way to get rid of bats in the belfry. There was a Protestant Minister and a Catholic Priest. Both had very old church buildings. One day they were discussing how difficult it is to get rid of bats.

The Minister said that he left all the lights on so that the bats would think it was daytime and would go back to sleep. However, his congregation did not like the high electric bills. And the bats soon learned how to turn off the lights.

The Priest just smiled and shared that he held religion classes for the bats. Knowing that Catholics had a bunch of doctrines to learn, the Minister wondered how long it would take before the bats left. So he asked, “When did the bats leave?”
The Catholic Priest answered, “Right after Confirmation.”

Blessings,
granny

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is dedicated to bringing people back to regular attendance at the Holy Sacrifice of Mass by reminding them how the Sacrament of Confirmation is meant to strengthen one’s faith in action.

 

[StTommyMore]

How can glossolalia be a gift of the Holy Spirit if there seems to be no record of any modern Saints using it? the same thing with being ‘slain in the Spirit,’ I have yet to see a video of Padre Pio, Mother Teresa, Pius X or any other Saint slaying anyone in the Spirit or breaking out into ‘tongues,’ also, how can the Charismatic Renewal be a work of the Holy Spirit if it started in protestant churches?

We simply have to trust that the Holy Spirit will not allow the Church to lead us astray. Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI have all endorsed the Charismatic Renewal. Even if we are not active in said movement, we must accept its validity.

 

[bkovacs]

If this is happening during a Charismatic Mass, someone needs to inform the pastor, or even the bishop. Having spent many years involved in Charismatic Renewal, I have not witnessed anything even remotely close to that. “Praise be to God” or “Halleluja” are used during prayer meetings, and such meetings may precede the Celebration of the Mass. Typically these exclamations are responses to testimonials from the members of how God has blessed them or someone they know, or when God has answered a prayer or intervened in an event. The only charism you will hear during a Mass, is prayer tongues.

The congregation typically pray in tongues after the opening hymn, but before the penitential rite, and at the elevation of the host and the chalice following the consecration prayers. And if you have ever attended such a liturgy, the host then the chalice are elevated for extended periods of time. Besides tongues, people utter audible ejaculatory prayers. At the diocesan Masses, the archbishop or bishop presiding elevated the host and chalice for as long as 5 minutes. When they were lowered, that was the signal to cease, which everyone uniformly did. A properly done Charismatic Mass is a beautiful liturgy which is respectful towards Our Lord.

The Holy Father may not preside over such a liturgy, but many bishops have. And the Papal Preacher, Father Raniero Cantalamessa, who is a Charismatic, has presided over many. I attended one celebrated by him.

So do they all sit their actually sticking out their tongues at each other. He He !!
Sorry but I couldn’t resist.
Anyway Charismatic Movements were started by Protestants, and that is where it should remain. I say again. It is not Catholic or Orthodox. And those Bishops that have presided over such an act, were probably presiding over one after 1970. I’ll leave it at that!.

 

[bkovacs]

At the risk of alienating or incurring the wrath of “charismatic Catholics” reading this thread, I can only say the following regarding your question:

1. I never heard of “charismatic Catholicism” until the 1970’s - post Vatican II.
2. I never heard a guitar, drum, boom-box at a mass until the 1970’s - post Vatican II.
3. I never saw people “dance” during Mass until the 1970’s - post Vatican II.
4. I never heard Catholics “speaking in tongues” during Mass until the 1970’s - post Vatican II.
5. I never saw Catholics imitating the priest during Mass, by assuming the “orans” position, raising their arms when the priest consecrates the bread and wine, and speaking parts of the Mass that are specifically reserved for the priest until the 1970’s - post Vatican II.

I have YET to hear anyone explain to me why the Holy Spirit would cause someone to speak gibberish as if to deliver a message to those hearing the gibberish, when no one, including the person speaking the gibberish, can tell you what in the world that person is saying.

Don’t you think that is a rather odd way of getting a point across - causing someone to make noises that no one can understand?

P.S. And you are correct - “charismatic renewal” began with protestantism and did not migrate to Catholics until after Vatican II.

Sounds more like Gnosticism to me Salvatore.

 

[StTommyMore]

So do they all sit their actually sticking out their tongues at each other. He He !!
Sorry but I couldn’t resist.
Anyway Charismatic Movements were started by Protestants, and that is where it should remain. I say again. It is not Catholic or Orthodox. And those Bishops that have presided over such an act, were probably presiding over one after 1970. I’ll leave it at that!.

As I have just said it IS Catholic, as it has been declared a valid movement by three popes. We have no choice but to trust that the Church is not leading us astray, even if in matters that on the surface seem somehow “wrong-headed.”

If we wish to proceed securely in all things, we must hold fast to the following principle: What seems to me white, I will believe black, if the hierarchical Church so defines. For I must be convinced that in Christ our Lord, the bridegroom, and in his spouse the Church, only one Spirit holds sway, which governs and rules for the salvation of souls. FOr it is by the same Spirit and Lord who gave the Ten Commandments that our holy Mother Church is ruled and governed. – St. Ignatius of Loyola

 

[grannymh]

So do they all sit their actually sticking out their tongues at each other. He He !!
Sorry but I couldn’t resist.

You could say that a person freely yields his tongue to the Holy Spirit.

Anyway Charismatic Movements were started by Protestants, and that is where it should remain. I say again. It is not Catholic or Orthodox. And those Bishops that have presided over such an act, were probably presiding over one after 1970. I’ll leave it at that!.

Have you ever read that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal was actually started by Protestants? Where? Or as we who are science minded say – Citation please.

When it comes to Charismatic Movements one must, absolutely must, separate the apples from the oranges.

Blessings,
granny

Catholic is Christian. But not all Christians are Catholic.

 

[bkovacs]

As I have just said it IS Catholic, as it has been declared a valid movement by three popes. We have no choice but to trust that the Church is not leading us astray, even if in matters that on the surface seem somehow “wrong-headed.”

Maybe “Roman” Catholic, but not Greek Catholic or Eastern Catholic!.