Questions about the charismatic renewal...

[Bruised_Reed]

**

But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God

.
**
That is pretty much what they are doing, speaking to God. Is each person supposed to praise God separately so someone can interpret what they are saying? The only time people speak individually is when they prophesy or have a word of knowledge. If they do that in tongues then should have interpretation.

Also, groups without somone with the gift of interpretation should pray for that. And discernment. It’s a simple remedy.

Regarding the woman you mentioned: Did the rest of the group really believe her? Others in the group actually confirmed this? You don’t need the gift of discernment to know that is not of God.

 

[MissionDiakonos]

“Regarding the woman you mentioned: Did the rest of the group really believe her? Others in the group actually confirmed this? You don’t need the gift of discernment to know that is not of God.”
That’s exactly my point. I was the only one that challenged her “interpretation” and others tried to ostracize me because I do not have the “gift” of tongues. They prize the gift of tongues over all other gifts. But I stood firm and they finally had to admit that I was correct. This particular group, and I’m not saying all, but this group is very disobedient to Church teaching. They allow a protestant who thumbs his nose at the Catholic Church to receive Communion during the “Charismatic” Mass. Only after I raised objection to the priest celebrant (in private) did it stop. If people are still “speaking” out loud, then they are not speaking to themselves and remaining silent in church.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

“Regarding the woman you mentioned: Did the rest of the group really believe her? Others in the group actually confirmed this? You don’t need the gift of discernment to know that is not of God.”
That’s exactly my point. I was the only one that challenged her “interpretation” and others tried to ostracize me because I do not have the “gift” of tongues. They prize the gift of tongues over all other gifts. But I stood firm and they finally had to admit that I was correct. This particular group, and I’m not saying all, but this group is very disobedient to Church teaching. They allow a protestant who thumbs his nose at the Catholic Church to receive Communion during the “Charismatic” Mass. Only after I raised objection to the priest celebrant (in private) did it stop. If people are still “speaking” out loud, then they are not speaking to themselves and remaining silent in church.

If this is your only experience with CCR then I understand your concerns and resistance. I was blessed to be a part of 2 solid groups. I have also had a near miss with another that was dissolved by the bishop. But, as PleeD posted, bad examples do not mean that Ccr is not of God. I would not be able to give any defense for this if not for the faithful witness of the people in these groups that steered me to orthodoxy and a relationship with Christ and prayer with them gave it a much needed jump start. Thanks be to God.

Also, thank you for speaking up. That was a a real act of charity.

 

[Blessed_Beggar]

I am late to the party, but think I can add something to the conversation. I was a member of the Church of God (Cleveland, TN), where I was a teacher, children’s ministry leader, and lay evangelist. I left the protestant churches over this issue, as well as several others. For those who do not know, the Church of God is extremely pentecostal/charismatic. I realize that I will step on some toes, and I apologize, but now that I am out of that circus…I am amazed at what I had fallen into. Let me say that I do not limit God, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit are indeed available to us all…but the same scripture quoted loosely throughout this thread also tells us that there is a PROPER way to exercise the gifts of tongues and prophecy. Read the entirety of the 1 Corinthians 14, and your cherry-picked verses will have their proper context. I have not experienced Catholic charismatics, but the worship stylings of protestant charismatics is wholly out of order, and against the teachings of scripture. I invite anyone with the time to read Father Seraphim Rose’s work, " Charismatic Revival As a Sign of the Times"…it can be found here: orthodoxphotos.com/readings/sign/ I do not want to get into polemics, but I will end with this. If this current “Renewal” movement were truly of God, then why does it’s effects have the opposite effect of the Holy Spirit? In 100 years, a movement started by a failed Methodist minister, has created some 11,000 split denominations. Christ prayed that,“they all be as one, even as You and I am one.” This movement brings division, not unity. Finally, a poster mentioned that many did signs and wonders with the Holy Spirit…this is true, but always remember…the scripture said that the signs and wonders followed the Apostles wherever they went…those in this movement follow after the signs and wonders. Where are the priorities?

 

[MissionDiakonos]

There are two other problems I have encountered with CCR. The first is the phrase that is used “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”. This theologically and sacramentally problematic. We have one Baptism, one faith, one Lord. We receive Baptism where we receive the Holy Spirit and the Sacrament of Confirmation to strengthen and enliven us in the Holy Spirit through the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. CCR appears to want to add an addtional sacrament not established by Jesus. The second is CCR uses an oil that they call the “oil of gladness”. Again, sacramentally problematic as it appears to usurp the oils blessed by the bishop at the Chrism Mass. As far as I know this “oil of gladness” does not have any bearing on the sacraments as do the Oil of the Sick, the Oil of Catechumens, and the Sacred Chrism. At the very least it can, and has, caused confusion for those who do not have a clear understanding of the sacraments or the approved sacramentals of the Church. As there is nothing to compel belief in this form of prayer/worship, or in the participation of it, I for one am glad to remain outside of it. If I somehow and sometime see that CCR is faithful to the magesterium and the local ordinary I might reconsider. There is just too much questionable material and things going on that do not appear to be from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mickey]

I was at a charismatic prayer group meeting when a woman purported to speak in tongues and then interpreted it herself as the Holy Spirit saying we do not need the Church.

Well…we know that was not the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mickey]

I invite anyone with the time to read Father Seraphim Rose’s work, " Charismatic Revival As a Sign of the Times".

Excellent reading!

In 100 years, a movement started by a failed Methodist minister, has created some 11,000 split denominations.

Yes. This movement is relatively new on the scene.

those in this movement follow after the signs and wonders.

Yes.

 

[PLeeD]

I ask again; how do you justify forbidding speaking in tongues, when that directly contradicts scripture?:

1 Corinthians 14:39 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition) - Wherefore, brethren, be zealous to prophesy; and forbid not to speak with tongues.

 

[Salvatore123]

PLeeD,

I do not believe that Mickey and Mission are *against charismatic renewal at all times - * even I would say that would be taking the objection too far.

But the problem I see (and they see - and I hope I am speaking correctly “for them” when I say this) is: when, exactly, is it licit for one to “speak in tongues” during Holy Mass?

Believe me - I have read the GIRM from top to bottom and I see no place for “speaking in tongues” during a regular, Sunday, Holy Mass we Catholics all attend every week.

In my area (south Louisiana), we are very “conservative” and “traditional”, and have a large number of Summorum Pontificum indult masses held every week - not just for special occasions! (God - thank you for Benedict XVI!!) To permit the charismatic movement to “live”, our pastors and the bishops have been careful to allow charismatic “services” - which is entirely separate from Holy Mass!

The following may upset some reading this particular thread, but I it IS in line with Church teaching and discipline regarding Holy Mass, and this exact subject was addressed by the great Cardinal Arinze when he visited the US several years ago (you can find his “question and answer” session on Youtube - it is really worth watching):

• It is improper for Catholics to begin saying out loud, during Mass, the parts of the Mass that are reserved for the priest to say. I had begun to see this so often that I started going to our Latin Mass exclusively. Yes, Mass is a communal celebration where we give thanks to God. But that does not mean we have free license to begin saying the Mass along with the priest! What next - people praying the Eucharistic Prayer out loud?
• It is improper for Catholics to assume the “orans” position during Mass along with the priest. The “orans” position is one that is used to either signal the attendees to begin praying in unison (such as just before the “Our Father”) or to call for the Holy Spirit. This is reserved for the priest in the GIRM - I do not see any allowance for those attending Mass.
• It is improper for a priest, AFTER saying the opening prayers of Mass (thereby starting Mass), to tell the attendees to turn to one another and introduce themselves so that we are not ‘strangers’ to one another and we can ‘welcome’ visitors. I am all for being cordial to people who attend Mass with me, and I like it that people want to visit my Church. But Mass is NOT a social gathering like a picnic - we are about to offer a sacrifice to God. This type of “socializing”, in my humble opinion, undercuts the reverence that should be part of every Mass. You will NEVER see such behavior at a Latin Mass. And before anyone begins attacking me for saying this particular point, I ask you: have you EVER seen a Mass said at the Vatican where the Holy Father asks people in attendance to turn to one another and introduce themselves? Those Masses are probably the greatest instances where one is apt to encounter a visitor.
• Finally, it is improper for attendees to reach out and literally grab the hand of someone next to them right before praying the “Our Father”. I have dealt with this by simply closing my eyes, clasping my hands in front of me, and folding my arms as though I was in deep, deep prayer. No one reaches for my hand when I do this. Again, I know people will attack me for bringing this up, but I again can assure you that “holding hands”, although it may seem innocuous, is not only unsupported by the GIRM, it will inevitably lead to other behavior that is not sanctioned by the GIRM.

I am very familiar with the logical fallacy stating “if one does one thing out of line, then other things out of line are bound to follow”. I readly agree that is not automatically true. But I also see these illicit practices as being the beginning of the proverbial slippery slope. Once one allows one illicit practice to start and take hold, what is to stop other illicit practices to begin? Nothing.

I will never forget that we went from, after Vatican II (and this was a perversion of Vatican II - that council never taught this or anything like it), being able to receive Holy Communion while standing, to priests literally ripping up altar rails where people had reverently received Holy Communion while kneeling for more than a hundred years in some older parishes!

Now how does one explain to a devoutly Catholic couple in their 80’s who faithfully go to Mass every DAY, that “it is no longer permitted that they received Holy Communion while kneeling”? That is an insult not only to the reverence that accompanies kneeling while receiving Holy Communion, but I submit that it is an insult to that couple who would like to receive Holy Communion the way they have done for decades!

 

[Mickey]

I ask again; how do you justify forbidding speaking in tongues, when that directly contradicts scripture?:
1 Corinthians 14:39 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition) - Wherefore, brethren, be zealous to prophesy; and forbid not to speak with tongues

Why do you cherry pick one verse?

Context, context, context.

 

[StTommyMore]

[/INDENT] Why do you cherry pick one verse?

Context, context, context.

The context is extolling the Charismatic gifts. There is no real reason to say that the Holy Spirit is not conferring the gifts in the present day. Don’t bring up the “its new” argument. At one time, Marian apparitions were “new.” At one time the Eucharist was “new.” THe “new=bad” attitude is exactly why Christians were persecuted in Rome: because it was “new.” To try and persuade that the Charismatic Renewal is not of God, you will have to dig deeper than your own prejudices.

 

[Mickey]

Don’t bring up the “its new” argument.

LOL! It’s not the “new” argument. It’s the “obscure” argument.

“This whole phenomenon [of speaking in tongues] is very obscure, but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such then as used to occur but now no longer take place. And why do they not happen now? Why look now, the cause too of the obscurity hath produced us again another question: namely, why did they then happen, and now do so no more”? (St John Chrysostom)

 

[Mickey]

To try and persuade that the Charismatic Renewal is not of God, you will have to dig deeper than your own prejudices.

There is nothing prejudicial about it…my friend.

Whilst in the Pentecost form of Glossolalia people of the same language could understand one another, Corinthian Glossolalia is different. St Paul who had founded the Church of Corinth, found it necessary to respond to some of their problems, i.e., division of authority, moral and ethical problems, the Eucharist, the issue of death and resurrection and how the Gifts of the Holy Spirit operated.

In chapter 12, St. Paul lists nine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, i.e., knowledge, wisdom, spirit, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, speaking in tongues and interpreting what another says when he speaks in tongues. Specifically, Corinthian Glossolalia was an activity of the Holy Spirit coming upon a person and compelling him to external expressions directed to God, but not understood by others. In Pentecost Glossolalia, while speaking in several different tongues, both the speaker and the listener understood what was uttered. The Glossolalia manifested in Corinth was the utterance of words, phrase;, sentences, etc., intelligible to God but not to the person uttering them. What was uttered needed to be interpreted by another who had the gift of interpretation. When the person spoke, his soul became passive and his understanding became inactive, while the words or sounds were prayer and praise, they were not clear in meaning and gave the impression of something mysterious.

There is no question - the Church of Corinth had Glossolalia; St. Paul attests to that and makes mention of it. But he also cautions the Corinthian Christians about excessive use; especially to the exclusion of the other more important gifts.

It appears St. Paul was questioned about the working of the Holy Spirit through the Gifts. The Corinthians at that time were living under the influence of pagan customs, so it was only natural that they would find certain similarities more familiar and appealing. Thus the Corinthians put more stress on certain gifts like glossolalia. No doubt the Apostle was concerned that their ties and memories of the old life should be reason enough to regulate the employment of Glossolalia. In Chapter 14, he says:

“I would like for all of you to speak in strange tongues; but I would rather that you had the gift of proclaiming God’s message. For the person who proclaims God’s message is of greater value than the one who speaks in strange tongues – unless there is someone who can explain what he says, so the whole Church may be edified. So when I come to you, my brethren, what use will I be to you if I speak in strange tongues? Not a bit, unless I bring to you some revelation from God or some knowledge or some inspired message or some teaching,”

The Lord God set out to make new creations through the saving grace of His Son and implemented into perfection through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit endowed men and women with many gifts in order to bring this about. One of the gifts during the New Testament times was Glossolalia.

But, St. Paul indicates later in Chapter 14 that Glossolalia should be minimised and understood preaching maximised. Justin Martyr, a prolific mid century writer lists several kinds of gifts but does not mention Glossolalia. St John Chrysostom wrote numerous homilies on Books of the New Testament during the fourth century but does not appear to make mention of Glossolalia as noted in First Corinthians. Many Christian writers, certainly the mystics wrote about what they perceived eternal life with Christ to be, of how the Holy Spirit spoke to them and through them, to others. But theirs was always understood, intelligible, comprehensible communication. Perhaps they could not describe in earthly and material frames of reference what they saw and experienced, but they were conscious and fully aware of what was happening. They were not in some state of senselessness. Even the monks on Mount Athos who experience divine communication and have reached a plateau of holiness do not speak in tongues.

“I thank God that I speak in strange tongues much more than any of you. But in Church worship I would rather speak five words that can be understood, in order to teach others, than speak thousands of words in strange tongues.” (verses 18-19)

Fr. George Nicozisin%between%

 

[PLeeD]

I ask again; how do you justify forbidding speaking in tongues, when that directly contradicts scripture?:

1 Corinthians 14:39 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition) - Wherefore, brethren, be zealous to prophesy; and forbid not to speak with tongues.
​

​

Why do you cherry pick one verse?

Context, context, context.

???

Have you ever read the chapter? It’s linked here.

The entire passage is about the orderly use of the gift of tongues and interpretation during church services. How much more contextual could it possibly be? None, I say. It is perfectly in context.

I really don’t care if speaking in tongues is not allowed during mass. Given tradition, it is obviously disruptive. It seems perfectly reasonable to not allow tongues or prophecy when other audible forms of worship are apparently not allowed. Under most circumstances my AoG pastor would not allow disruption for tongues and interpretation during most parts of the service. It all comes back to the idea of maintaining order in worship.

It’s a whole other thing to completely deny the work of the Holy Spirit, which is in direct opposition to the instructions Paul gave to the church at Corinth.

I get the feeling that for some this discussion is more about denying the reality of scriptural use of gifts of the spirit than it is complaining about orderly worship. Paul says do not forbid speaking in tongues. Aren’t you giving ECF’s and modern day commentators more authority than Paul?

 

[Salvatore123]

PleeD,

I speak only for myself with this:

For those who truly have the gift and want to do so - speak in tongues until your heart’s content. I do not deny the gift exists. Just don’t do so during Mass that causes such a disruption that altar boys or ushers are called to escort the person out of the church. If someone disrupts Mass by doing this, then I DO question whether this is a gift of the Holy Spirit. I cannot imagine the Holy Spirit choosing the middle of Mass for someone to break out uttering some sound that no one understands . . . what purpose does THAT serve?

And this is NOT an exaggeration or something made up - I was part of the “escort”. After Mass (which was already almost over), as I drove home, she was STILL waiving her hands and shouting out loud, walking on the sidewalk next to the main street in our town.

 

[Mickey]

PLeeD:

Have you ever read the chapter?

Yes. Have you?

PLeeD:

Aren’t you giving ECF’s and modern day commentators more authority than Paul?

Of course not. St Paul tells us that “tongues” are the least of gifts.

1 Cor 12:28
And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.

The Church Fathers tell us that this gift has fallen into obscurity. I know that it is meaningless to you, but the Holy Church Fathers are part of the Sacred Tradition that helps Orthodox and Catholic Christians to interpret Sacred Scripture properly. I find it rather odd that about 100 years ago the Pentecostalists suddenly bring tongues out of obscurity.

1 Cor 14:6
But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in doctrine?

1 Cor 14:9-10
So likewise you, except you utter by the tongue plain speech, how shall it be known what is said? For you shall be speaking into the air. There are, for example, so many kinds of tongues in this world; and none is without voice.

1 Cor 14:13
And therefore he that speaketh by a tongue, let him pray that he may interpret.

1 Cor 14:18-19
I thank my God I speak with all your tongues. But in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may instruct others also; than ten thousand words in a tongue.

1 Cor 14:27
If any speak with a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and in course, and let one interpret.

Context, context, context!

 

[MissionDiakonos]

Most of what I see in CCR is people attempting to attain a “spiritual high”. It’s that feeling you have after attending a good retreat, seminar, talk, or even on hearing a good homily. It can lift us up and make us “feel” good. But there is problem when the person returns “changed” and is surprised and disappointed that those who did not attend or do not have the same feeling and are viewed as not on the “same level” of spirituality. This begets an “I’m at a higher spiritual plain than you are” attitude, which is very very dangerous in the Church. There is also a “crashing” that can occur once the feeling of “spiritual high” is gone and the person has to return to the normal every day living. It can be like drugs and alcohol, where people strive over and over to achieve that “spiritual high” and crash when the person again faces the reality of life. Does the Holy Spirit give people various gifts as He wills? Of course. However, we do not have to believe any one person has any particular gift, even speaking in tongues. Furthermore any particular gift does not put one on a higher spiritual plain than any other person. “Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart, and a humble mind” (1 Pt 3:8).

 

[PLeeD]

I cannot imagine the Holy Spirit choosing the middle of Mass for someone to break out uttering some sound that no one understands . . . what purpose does THAT serve?

I’ve agreed with you several times now that the example from your own personal experience is not a case where the gift of tongues was used properly. What happened there is clearly in violation of Paul’s instructions on the matter.

I’ll say it again… If a member of the church is displaying the gift at a time that the church leader has deemed inappropriate, and has informed the member of that fact, then that member is acting inappropriately! They should be asked to stop or leave.

That said, you don’t seem to completely understand how the gift of the Holy Spirit called tongues works. I described a couple of times now how the starting and stopping of tongues on the part of the speaker is completely voluntary. It if was involuntary, then the kind of orderly regulation that Paul instructs us to use is not possible.

Mickey, can you cite one statement from a council, or an ex-cathedra proclamation from a Pope, that declares the gift of tongues to be dead? I don’t think you can. IMO, you are clearly placing the commentary of godly yet human fallible men above the Holy and divinely inspired Word of God given us by Paul.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, can you cite one statement from a council, or an ex-cathedra proclamation from a Pope, that declares the gift of tongues to be dead?

1. I said obscure…not dead. Don’t put words in my mouth.
2. As far as “ex-cathedra proclamation”—that is a post schism Latin Catholic expression and I am not Latin Catholic.
3. I have already given you context from the Sacred Scriptures in conjunction with the words of the Fathers regarding the obscurity of the Corinthian style tongues.

IMO, you are clearly placing the commentary of godly yet human fallible men above the Holy and divinely inspired Word of God given us by Paul.

Your opinion is contrary to the Sacred Scripture as interpretaed by the mind of the Fathers and the Sacred Tradition of the Church—so I cannot give much creedance to your opinion.

 

[Mickey]

St Augustine regarded speaking in tongues as a gift reserved for only the New Testament era Church. He argued that this was evident from the fact that his contemporaries did not see people receiving that gift in their own day. Notice how he refers to the sacrament of Chrismation (Confirmation) and Baptism.

In the earliest times, “the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues”, which they had not learned, “as the Spirit gave them utterance”. These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to shew that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away. In the laying on of hands now, that persons may receive the Holy Ghost, do we look that they should speak with tongues? Or when he laid the hand on infants, did each one of you look to see whether they would speak with tongues, and, when he saw that they did not speak with tongues, was any of you so strong-minded as to say, These have not received the Holy Ghost; for, had they received, they would speak with tongues as was the case in those times? If then the witness of the presence of the Holy Ghost be not given through these miracles, by what is it given, by what does one get to know that he has received the Holy Ghost? Let him question his own heart. If he love his brother, the Spirit of God dwelleth in him.
(St Augustine of Hippo)