Questions about the charismatic renewal...

[Salvatore123]

PLeeD,

I agree with you - based on what you are saying, I apparently do not understand how “speaking in tongues” works when use “correctly”. Would you please explain how and the significance/purpose of this occurring?

Also, I am apparently not “getting” the gist of “charismatic renewal”. I do not feel as though I have any particular “charism” - I view myself as a simple orthodox Catholic with no special gifts. What am I supposed to do or say or pray for in order to experience this “charismatic renewal” and what am I supposed to experience if it “comes over me”?

I ask these questions sincerely - not to mock or condescend.

But I will be up front with you: I am ALWAYS leery of a member of my faith “discovering something new” that supposedly has raised his or her level of faith and who then tells everyone that THEY need to try it as well, as “we are missing out if we don’t”.

 

[StTommyMore]

PLeeD,

I agree with you - based on what you are saying, I apparently do not understand how “speaking in tongues” works when use “correctly”. Would you please explain how and the significance/purpose of this occurring?

Also, I am apparently not “getting” the gist of “charismatic renewal”. I do not feel as though I have any particular “charism” - I view myself as a simple orthodox Catholic with no special gifts. What am I supposed to do or say or pray for in order to experience this “charismatic renewal” and what am I supposed to experience if it “comes over me”?

I ask these questions sincerely - not to mock or condescend.

But I will be up front with you: I am ALWAYS leery of a member of my faith “discovering something new” that supposedly has raised his or her level of faith and who then tells everyone that THEY need to try it as well, as “we are missing out if we don’t”.

I see what you are getting at, but also remember that “gifts of the Spirit” include such things as teaching and preaching. I too am leery of any Catholic who feels the Charismatic Renewal is somehow superior to other spiritualities just as I am leery of Traditionalists who sneer at those who do not find the TLM as edifying as the Novus Ordo. If you feel drawn to the Renewal then fantastic, if not, that is fine too. There are many expressions of Catholicism that are all loyal to the Magisterium.

 

[PLeeD]

Your opinion is contrary to the Sacred Scripture as interpretaed by the mind of the Fathers and the Sacred Tradition of the Church—so I cannot give much creedance to your opinion.:

I understand that, accept that, and am comfortable with that. So, not a problem AFAIC. I’m not trying to persuade you, only to understand the basis of what you say.

BTW, as I’ve learned more about Orthodoxy, I’ve become very interested in attending our local OCA church to check it out. It seems there is greater emphasis placed on the authority of scripture, and honestly more of a focus on Jesus than I see in the alternative apostolic tradition. I may yet come around to your way of thinking one of these days

 

[Mickey]

BTW, as I’ve learned more about Orthodoxy, I’ve become very interested in attending our local OCA church to check it out.

I hope that you have a prayerful experience. The Divine Liturgy is where heaven meets earth.

Peace and prayers to you and yours!

Christ is Risen!

Mickey

 

[jjkp777]

There’s been a lot of back and forth on this issue and I wanted to share some important documents that discusses this “movement”. Many such Catholic Charismatics are borderline Pentecostal and I know this from experience so I reference some relevant articles below.

Read more here:

credo.stormloader.com/Doctrine/pentecon.htm

therealpresence.org/archives/Protestantism/Protestantism_002.htm

And a book from a non-Catholic point of view:

amzn.com/0310575729

My wife and I are Filipino Americans and unfortunately, Filipinos in general are quite sentimental and are often “caught” by many of these movements due to their appeal to the senses (emotionalism)… They wind up server their “covenant community” more than serving the greater “Church”. I discovered right away that most do not know their Catechism and are very susceptible and almost completely rely on false “signs and wonders” and at may times receive false teachings, with no real idea about the truths of our faith. You see, the problem (similar to Protestant churches) is that these communities really do not have an authority from the Church that assists in governing them (they have Catholic spiritual advisors but at the end of they day really don’t have to listen to them) because they are “led by the Holy Spirit”…

I have found these communities to be more divisive than inclusive and duplicate the very functions of the Church (e.g. they have their own music ministry, their own kids ministry, youth ministry, family ministry, etc.). It’s either you’re 100% involved in these Charismatic communities, often spend countless hours serving the community rather than for example, your local parish. I find that these Filipino Charismatic communities in fact wind up taking away from the Church (by trying to build its’ own church within the Church… ) rather than supporting the Church.

I think many do not see this but I certainly do. Money is diverted, time and talent is diverted,etc. to serve the community rather than the universal Church. If the Vatican really knew what was going on, I certainly believe they would “rein in” these movements immediately.

I would describe the Filipino Charismatics are those who want to have some Protestant beliefs and some Catholic beliefs. I argue, however, that you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Peace and God bless you all.

 

[grannymh]

How can glossolalia be a gift of the Holy Spirit if there seems to be no record of any modern Saints using it? the same thing with being ‘slain in the Spirit,’ I have yet to see a video of Padre Pio, Mother Teresa, Pius X or any other Saint slaying anyone in the Spirit or breaking out into ‘tongues,’ also, how can the Charismatic Renewal be a work of the Holy Spirit if it started in protestant churches?

Catholic Charismatic *Renewal *means renewal of what St. Paul taught.

If the two gifts involving tongues were practiced by ordinary Catholics in modern times, then there would be no need for a renewal. :doh2:

FYI – St. Paul was not a member of a Protestant Church.

 

[jjkp777]

In the article I refer to, here is a relevant quote.

"Moreover, the effects of ordinary Christian infant baptism are ignored or neglected in favor of a basically up-scriptural “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” which is theologically very confusing. Catholics know (as a matter of faith) that a person who has received the sacrament of Baptism is now living a life of grace which God in His ordinary economy simply does not accompany with extraordinary phenomena. Indeed both the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation are in practice relegated to second class status by the emphasis on a “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” considered as distinct from them. Some of our Catholic Pentecostals do not appear to understand that:

"the initial gift of the Spirit (in Holy Baptism) is none the less real for not being experienced or accompanied by charismatic manifestations; and that experience cannot be taken as the criteria of truly living in the Spirit."15

Nor can the gift of tongues claimed by the Pentecostals bear the theological weight which their practice assigns to it. In Acts 2:1-22, the gift of tongues was most assuredly a miraculous phenomenon. But St. Peter and the other Apostles spoke an intelligible language which was heard by the power of God in the intelligible languages of the many foreigners present. Their gift of tongues was not the unintelligible gibberish uttered in Pentecostal meetings. In 1 Corinthians Chapter 14, the reference to strange tongues also admits of intelligible languanges. And, as St. Paul relates, the languages spoken by those who had never learned them, were intended by God to be a sign to the unbeliever. How speaking pure gibberish could be a sign of God’s work to anyone has never been satisfactorily explained. St. Paul also tells us, moreover, that “talking with a strange tongue” was rather inferior to the “gift of prophecy,” and that he would rather speak five words in church with his understanding in order to instruct others, than 10,000 words in a “tongue.” It was time for the Corinthians, whom he was rebuking for various disorders in their ecclesial life, to grow up!

It should also be noted, particularly in view of what had actually occurred in Catholic Pentecostal meetings, that the following teaching of St. Paul has been ignored:

If there is speaking with strange tongues, do not let more than two speak, or three at the most; let each take his turn, with someone to interpret for him, and if he can find nobody to interpret, let him be silent in the church, conversing with his own spirit and with God… And women are to be silent in the churches; utterance is not permitted to them; let them keep their rank, as the law tells them: if they have any questions to raise, let them ask their husbands at home. That a woman should make her voice heard in the church is not seemly.16

A major point that needs stressing is that absolutely no evidence has ever been provided that the tongues spoken at [any] Pentecostal gatherings are intelligible foreign languages spoken on this planet. But such intelligibility is an essential requirement of Scriptural teaching!

For many, the main appeal of the Pentecostal is the speaking in tongues described in Acts 2:1-21. The claim is made that this event is being paralleled in widespread Christian experience today. But again, the case for this collapses since the most knowledgeable Scripture scholars maintain that the initial Pentecostal experience was confined to the Apostles (and the Mother of God), and was not in fact shared by the 120 Christians who are mentioned in Acts 1:15.17

The Pentecost event was pre-eminently a manifestation of the Spirit among the members of the Apostolic hierarchy, and if we are to look at it as a model for latter-day speaking in tongues, then the tongues should rightfully appear among the members of the hierarchy! — and not to every Tom, Dick and Harry, or, as Martin Luther once expressed it:

"No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost!“18”

For more information, please read the links I posted before.

Peace and God bless you.

 

[MaryLouItalia]

I understand that, accept that, and am comfortable with that. So, not a problem AFAIC. I’m not trying to persuade you, only to understand the basis of what you say.

BTW, as I’ve learned more about Orthodoxy, I’ve become very interested in attending our local OCA church to check it out. It seems there is greater emphasis placed on the authority of scripture, and honestly more of a focus on Jesus than I see in the alternative apostolic tradition. I may yet come around to your way of thinking one of these days

I’m in a charismatic renewal group and I (we) read the bible in all the meetings (much more when I was in the Assemblies of God or other charismatic\pentecostal churches that I’ve attended) and God\Jesus\Holy Spirit are the 99% of our praises.
I don’t know very well Orthodoxy devotion and liturgy, but I find it fascinating.

 

[grannymh]

In the article I refer to, here is a relevant quote.

"Moreover, the effects of ordinary Christian infant baptism are ignored or neglected in favor of a basically up-scriptural “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” which is theologically very confusing. Catholics know (as a matter of faith) that a person who has received the sacrament of Baptism is now living a life of grace which God in His ordinary economy simply does not accompany with extraordinary phenomena. Indeed both the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation are in practice relegated to second class status by the emphasis on a “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” considered as distinct from them. Some of our Catholic Pentecostals do not appear to understand that:

My apology for only skimming the first part of your links. However, I do have a handle on the early history of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

The above quote is essentially correct in the time frame it was written. One also needs to recognize that that the quote is written during the period when Catholic education was beginning to decline or in some areas of our country it had already declined severely.

It is no wonder, that the few decent theologians were worried about the possible downgrading of the Catholic Sacrament of Baptism. If ordinary Catholics had been up to speed regarding their faith, there would have been no need for a Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

Please note the name change from Catholic Pentecostalism to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Renewal is the operative word.

When one reads documents from the era of “Catholic Pentecostalism” one sees a warning which, by the way, was taken very seriously by Catholics who were learning, maybe for the first time, about the early history of the Catholic Church and what Chapter 14, Gospel of John was all about. (hint–It is the introduction to Pentecost and currently is the basis for the defense of the Catholic Deposit of Faith.)

Obviously, when those Catholics, well versed in the Faith, saw the relationship of some Pentecostal teachings to the teachings of St. Paul, they conducted research to separate the weeds from the wheat. One of the fruits of that research was the name change to Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Another fruit was a long informational period which was basic Catholic education desperately needed since attendance at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the reception of the Sacrament of Reconciliation were declining. Still another fruit was the emphasis of reading Scripture. I had learned Catholic Doctrines before opening the Bible. I was awed to find the very original basis for Catholicism in black and white.

As I recall, the grass roots of serious concern about Catholicism, dates back to the 1940’s and probably earlier. If Catholics had been practicing their Faith in the proper manner, there would have been no need for a Catholic Charismatic Renewal

Nor can the gift of tongues claimed by the Pentecostals bear the theological weight which their practice assigns to it. In Acts 2:1-22, the gift of tongues was most assuredly a miraculous phenomenon. But St. Peter and the other Apostles spoke an intelligible language which was heard by the power of God in the intelligible languages of the many foreigners present.

When one moves beyond the very brief Catholic Pentecostalism era into the actual Catholic Charismatic Renewal, one finds that the two Holy Spirit gifts involving tongues are not based on Acts 2: 5-11. The change in location from Acts 2: 1-4 signifies a new miracle.

Regarding the two Holy Spirit gifts with the separate use of 'tongues" – I have posted and posted as to how the Catholic Charismatic Renewal presents these two gifts. All that was important to me was that a person at least understood what Paul was explaining to the Corinthians.

Catholics are not obligated to accept the Holy Spirit gift of prayer tongues. Even with that assumption, in my CAF experience, only a few people opposed to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal were able to understand what St. Paul was saying to the Corinthians.

 

[jjkp777]

If Catholics had been practicing their Faith in the proper manner, there would have been no need for a Catholic Charismatic Renewal

With all due respect, I have a concern with the logic of your statement. Outside of Apostolic times, there was no “need” for this Renewal and I would argue there is still no need. In you are inferring that people are “more evil” so to speak than in times past and have a greater need for renewal, I disagree.

It is my observation that the “Charismatic renewal” has done more to divide our Church than to unite it (especially for Filipinos), because it has a proclivity to contradict Church teachings, such as the need to tithe to these covenant communities being just one but very important example which our Roman Catholic church does note teach.

Here’s a short listing of Filipino Charismatic communities: BLD (Bukas Loob Sa Diyos), CFC (the original Couples for Christ), CFC-FFL (Foundation for Family and Life splinter group from the original), Lamb of God, etc. It’s sad but there seems to be no end to this. In 10 years, there will probably be even more of these “Renewal” Charismatic Covenant communities.

And for those being “recruited” into these Charismatic Covenant communities, I would ask that they also reflect on the following verse and understand that the 7 Sacraments are indeed enough.

1 Corinthians 10:13

I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chlo’e’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apol’los,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

So what are the fruits of this movement? As far as Filipino Catholics are concerned, we’re more divided than ever and with my experience in knowing people from CFC-FFL, do not necessarily know their faith any better. At CFC-FFL, the Catechism is not emphasized but rather Bible discussions are held at households where everyone’s interpretation is left up to themselves which obviously poses great danger and completely opposes the need to have any “Church authority” in interpreting scripture. It is very similar to how Protestants view the Bible, subsequently opening up the flood gates to “my conscience says this is what the Bible is telling me” rather than submitting to Church teaching, resulting in many, many lost souls who do not in fact realize that they are Lost, which I find absolutely frightening.

Just on last point…Because it is not a sacrament, there is no need whatsoever for a “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”, praying in tongues, edifying an assembly in tongues, etc… for Catholics. It is my experience that Charismatics have this “need” for everyone to be just like them and in fact, aggressively “recruit” others into their Christian Life Seminars, completely misunderstanding our Lord’s commission to baptize those who haven’t been baptized rather than inviting those who are already in fact Catholic and have all the graces necessary through the Sacraments to grow in Faith. Been there, done that (in fact was a Servant Leader of a Household) but learned quickly that many CFC-FFL covenant community teachings were wrong and left soon after.

I have excerpts from the book “Charismatic Chaos” that I will share later (not enough time today). It has an entire chapter on “Tongues” and provides a tremendous amount of insight which may benefit those who are currently praying in tongues and those who have not yet done so but may be tempted to do so.

Peace be with you and Happy 4th of July to all!

 

[COPLAND_3]

Much like bigfoot and aliens, I have never heard or found the evidence that how those from the charismatic movement have the right position. I believe in tongues, but not the version given by them. Their worship services are no more convincing because I see similar characteristics in a rock-n-roll concert, hands raised, clapping, people shouting and dancing, etc. I am open to the truth, and if its real then I would embrace it, but I’ve yet to be convinced. I really wish the Pope would write a detailed book or letter on the manner.

 

[PLeeD]

BTW, as I’ve learned more about Orthodoxy, I’ve become very interested in attending our local OCA church to check it out. It seems there is greater emphasis placed on the authority of scripture, and honestly more of a focus on Jesus than I see in the alternative apostolic tradition. I may yet come around to your way of thinking one of these days
Mickey;7858313:

I hope that you have a prayerful experience. The Divine Liturgy is where heaven meets earth.

Peace and prayers to you and yours!

Christ is Risen!

Mickey

Thought I’d drop a little update on this since it’s been so long, and this thread has been resurrected…

I have attended our local OCA church several times now, and even had lunch with the Priest one time. Everyone there is really nice, and I enjoy the liturgy. I could easily consider converting, but my wife… there is no way she would. For now I will probably continue going occasionally.

On the issue of Catholics and speaking in tongues…

Catholics are so happy to accuse protestants of error when it comes to private interpretation of scripture! They claim to have the whole truth handed to them via Rome. Yet, even when Rome endorses something like the CCR, individual Catholics abandon any guidance from Rome and engage in their own private interpretation of scripture to support their own biased opinion.

It’s quite sad to see Catholics abuse their brothers and sisters in the Catholic church. Though disgusting when it’s done to protestants, it’s at lease somewhat understandable. Seeing Catholic on Catholic bigotry like this leaves little doubt that whatever truth comes from Rome is gladly ejected by the Joe Six-pack Catholic.

 

[grannymh]

With all due respect, I have a concern with the logic of your statement. Outside of Apostolic times, there was no “need” for this Renewal and I would argue there is still no need. In you are inferring that people are “more evil” so to speak than in times past and have a greater need for renewal, I disagree.

I also disagree with “inferring that people are “more evil” so to speak than in times past…”

I cannot address Filipino covenant communities because I do not know enough about them. However, in America in the early days of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, some covenant communities were considered outside the Catholic Renewal. Today, if a person is interested is a covenant community, I strongly suggest that she or he check with the diocese as to the relationship of the covenant community to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and to Catholicism itself.

As for Filipino Charismatic groups, I only know about the ones in Juneau, Alaska, many years ago. As I recall, there were two prayer groups both strongly connected with their Catholic parish. As a visitor to Juneau, I was able to attend one of the meetings and it was similar to the American groups with the exception that at that time only a couple spoke English. I have also met Filipinos in diocesan gatherings in the lower 48. The people I have met are loyal to the Catholic Church and celebrate our faith as we all do. As with all nationalities, I am sure that there are also people who are not loyal to the Catholic Church.

Just on last point…Because it is not a sacrament, there is no need whatsoever for a “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”, praying in tongues, edifying an assembly in tongues, etc… for Catholics.

Currently, when a person receives the Sacrament of Baptism, there are additional rituals such as renouncing Satan and his works. A candle which is often lighted is another addition but obviously does not replace the water.

When one reviews the early history of the Catholic Church, one finds those receiving the Sacraments of Baptism were mostly adults. Thus, the additional rituals accompanying the Sacrament were geared to an adult’s life. There are records of an additional ritual which is like today’s " Baptism of the Holy Spirit". In a sense, this addition to the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of Confirmation (often in the early Church the two were received together) would be like renouncing the works of Satan by the adult commitment to Jesus Christ as Savior.

Now, obviously, the graces of the Sacrament of Baptism are essentially the same for the adult and the child. In the early days of the Church, the adult would additionally affirm her or his commitment to Christ. With the sacramental Baptism of a baby, the sponsors or godparents respond in place of the child when it comes to renouncing Satan and committing one’s life to Christ. Today, there are many ways that adults can affirm those first responses made for them when they were baptized as an infant. One of the ways is the additional “charismatic” way of asking for the graces of Holy Spirit. This is actually is a renewal, not a replacement, of the Sacrament of Baptism. Because of its indelible mark, we receive the Sacrament of Baptism only once – but we should everyday ask for the graces of that Sacrament in some manner.

 

[grannymh]

Much like bigfoot and aliens, I have never heard or found the evidence that how those from the charismatic movement have the right position. I believe in tongues, but not the version given by them. Their worship services are no more convincing because I see similar characteristics in a rock-n-roll concert, hands raised, clapping, people shouting and dancing, etc. I am open to the truth, and if its real then I would embrace it, but I’ve yet to be convinced. I really wish the Pope would write a detailed book or letter on the manner.

Instead of a Pope writing a detailed book on St. Paul’s teachings regarding some of the hundreds of gifts or charisms from the Holy Spirit, would you consider a theological evaluation of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal which was conducted many years ago?

If yes, I will re-find the source sometime later this week…

 

[MaryLouItalia]

In my experience, being a part of a catholic charismatic group, helped me (and many other brothers and sisters) to be more active in our local parishes and for me, I can enter in any parish with traditional hyms and be happy like when I go in the 2 weekly prayer meetings with ‘my’ group. The 26th May, for the jubelee of the catholic charismatic movement in Italy, Benedict XVI gave us the chance to have a special audience in St. Peter plaza it.gloria.tv/?media=294281. Also tha past 2 popes (Paolo VI and Giovanni Paolo II) gave beautiful words to the (catholic) charismatic group.
As I said, if you don’t like the charismatic spirituality that’s ok. No one forced me to go in this group, and no one can force you to like this kind of spirituality or attending a Mass or a prayer meeting.
Feel free to go as you like, the most important thing is remain faithful to the teachings of our Church. We are members of the same BODY.

Pope Benedict XVI, 26th may 2012: Dear friends continue to witness the joy of Christ…

ps: We don’t have a ‘polka’ Mass. The Mass is a serious thing…

 

[jjkp777]

There is a wonderful amount of information about Baptism on this website.

There is great information about Infant Baptism below which better explains some of what was previously posted about Baptism:

catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism

catholic.com/tracts/early-teachings-on-infant-baptism

Here’s another reference:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=5150

For those who haven’t attended a “Christian Life Seminar” (note immediately that it does not say “Catholic Life Seminar”), people should realize that in these seminars that there is a “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” where some are actually “slain in the Spirit”. Obvious dangers lie with this practice and incidentally, when my wife and I attended this seminar at CFC-FFL, there were no priests present and it was held inside a Catholic Church. Can you tell me the last time you went to a Church to celebrate a sacrament (or Renewal as some have defined this) WITHOUT a priest officiating?

This article graciously explains what happens when someone is “Slain”… needless to say, you should be careful with being slain or praying in tongues…

rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/tags/slain-in-the-spirit

I maintain that the 7 Sacraments are enough and have always been.

More about tongues later…

 

[COPLAND_3]

Instead of a Pope writing a detailed book on St. Paul’s teachings regarding some of the hundreds of gifts or charisms from the Holy Spirit, would you consider a theological evaluation of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal which was conducted many years ago?

If yes, I will re-find the source sometime later this week…

Really I would only be interested in something authoritative. I’ve tried to read up on others interpretations of the renewal and it has never convinced me. I consider myself informed in the writings of the Church Fathers, and they never seem to look anything like Charismatic Renewal, which leads me to think that the renewal is a result of not the Holy Spirit but the result of todays folks interpretations. Pope John Paul 2’s words about the renewal is not detailed and explanatory enough to convince me that he approves everything that is going on in the renewal. This issue really needs some clarification by the Church in order to get me onboard.

 

[grannymh]

There is a wonderful amount of information about Baptism on this website.

There is great information about Infant Baptism below which better explains some of what was previously posted about Baptism:

catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism

catholic.com/tracts/early-teachings-on-infant-baptism

Here’s another reference:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=5150

For those who haven’t attended a “Christian Life Seminar” (note immediately that it does not say “Catholic Life Seminar”), people should realize that in these seminars that there is a “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” where some are actually “slain in the Spirit”. Obvious dangers lie with this practice and incidentally, when my wife and I attended this seminar at CFC-FFL, there were no priests present and it was held inside a Catholic Church. Can you tell me the last time you went to a Church to celebrate a sacrament (or Renewal as some have defined this) WITHOUT a priest officiating?

This article graciously explains what happens when someone is “Slain”… needless to say, you should be careful with being slain or praying in tongues…

rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/tags/slain-in-the-spirit

I maintain that the 7 Sacraments are enough and have always been.

More about tongues later…

I definitely agree that one needs to be careful in regard to the two separate gifts of the Holy Spirit which use tongues. I say this because not only has abuse occurred, but it seems that some, not all, people in this country have an extremely hard time comprehending what St. Paul is writing about. Thus, there is in this country many instances of misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

 

[grannymh]

Really I would only be interested in something authoritative. I’ve tried to read up on others interpretations of the renewal and it has never convinced me. I consider myself informed in the writings of the Church Fathers, and they never seem to look anything like Charismatic Renewal, which leads me to think that the renewal is a result of not the Holy Spirit but the result of todays folks interpretations. Pope John Paul 2’s words about the renewal is not detailed and explanatory enough to convince me that he approves everything that is going on in the renewal. This issue really needs some clarification by the Church in order to get me onboard.

Thank you for your honesty.

The U.S. Bishops theological evaluation of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal which was conducted many years ago does sound a tad dull. See post 133.

"As early as 1969, only two years after the Renewal started, the U.S. Bishops investigated the fledgling movement and the Committee on Doctrine wrote that “theologically the movement has legitimate reasons of existence. It has a strong biblical basis. It would be difficult to inhibit the working of the Spirit which manifested itself so abundantly in the early Church.”

Subsequent statements in 1975, 1984 and 1997 have been equally affirming."

Additional information is here. nsc-chariscenter.org/AboutCCR/

 

[jjkp777]

Another great article:

I find that there is a tremendous lack of discernment in these Charismatic Covenant communities. Unfortunately, “what Feels right, must be Right” prevails. It should also be noted that there were no precautions given to us during this “Christian Life Seminar” about possible dangers during the Baptism of the Holy Spirit or possible dangers in Praying in Tongues. :

ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm

Key excerpts below:

"Discernment of Charisms

The Apostle John encourages us to test the spirits (1 John 4) and over the years the Church has developed criteria to determine whether the fruits are good or bad (Mt. 7:15-20). St. John teaches that if anyone denies Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (1 John 4:3) it is proof that the person does not have the Spirit of God. We can call this the doctrinal test of the fruit. The Spirit of God would never lead one away from the truth about Christ. Since the Church is an extension of the mystery of the Incarnation, the Spirit of God would never lead one away from the Catholic Church or Her teachings. Similarly, the Spirit of God would never lead one away from the practice of the faith (morally, devotionally, sacramentally). Christ has left us the means of salvation and His Spirit would never deprive us of them. This could be called the practical test of the fruit. “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven” (Mt. 7:21-23). Positively said, the Holy Spirit’s activity (including among non-Catholics) must necessarily tend toward Catholic truth and unity (doctrine and practice), no matter how remote that unity might appear.

On the other hand, a spirit which acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh is of God (1 John 4:2). Such doctrinal correctness is a motive of credibility in the authenticity of a charism or event. Yet, a person may simply be operating by the human spirit fortified by Faith and may not be manifesting an extraordinary gift. To determine whether a given phenomenon exceeds human nature calls for a discernment beyond simple orthodoxy. For example, in the special case of an apparition, when a bishop declares an event to be “worthy of belief” or “not worthy of belief” he does so based upon both scientific (can it be explained?) and theological (is it from God?) criteria. So, orthodoxy is the necessary beginning of the discernment, not the end.

There is yet another dimension of the discernment which needs to be considered. Since charisms are given to build up the Church, there is no necessary connection with personal sanctity. Saints, sinners and even unbelievers have manifested these gifts. The pagan prophet Balaam was given the Divine spirit of prophecy in order to authenticate Israel as the People of God (Num. 22). Thus the moral state of the recipient (good or bad) does not by itself indicate a true or false charism. When actually under the constraint of the Spirit of God, however, the true charismatic could not say or do anything contrary to that Spirit. No one could claim, for instance, that the Spirit of God led him to get drunk or do anything sinful, although he might at other times do such things.

Practically speaking, therefore, the many instances of extraordinary charisms within the Charismatic Renewal will never come under the official scrutiny of the Church. Priests and Catholic laity associated with the Renewal will most likely have to discern each instance themselves, according to the theological criteria of Catholic theology and prudence. It is easier to dismiss a phenomenon as NOT from God than it is to determine its other possible sources (human or divine spirit). A basic question prayerfully asked must be “is this particular event a credible example of the action of the Spirit of God - a Spirit incapable of any lie or sin and which can only lead people (even non-Catholics) to a deeper Catholic faith and unity?” This should do much to protect us from the roaring lion (1 Peter 5:8), even if it cannot produce the judgement that something is certainly from God - a fact which only the Holy See can ultimately state."

More to follow… (I will quote excerpts from the book Charismatic Chaos but it’s taking me time to enter all the info)

God bless you!