Questions about the Novus Ordo Mass.

[paul11b]

I am not trying to be judgemental or rude in posting this forum. I just need some help and direction because everthing that I am about to mention causes me great spiritual anguish. I have problems determining God’s will, and I really need someone to explain to me why some of this stuff is allowed and why I should not be concerned about it. I have gone back and forth, thinking I should only go to Latin Mass, and then thinking the Novus Ordo was okay. I have even entertained the idea of attending an SSPX chapel.

I have read the Vatican II document Sacrosanctum Concilium (SC) which calls for reform of the Liturgy. I do not necessarily have an issue with the reform, or with the Novus Ordo Mass, but I have a problem with the way that it is celebrated. SC never calls for the Holy Eucharist to be distributed in the hand. I personally think that Eucharist in the hand is wrong, and there is all kinds of evidence to support that. Communion in the hand was an indult, which expired and yet it continued after its expiration. It was even started as an abuse and is a way to show that the person receiving does not believe that Christ is truly present.

SC also never called for the priest to face the people. Ad Orientum Mass is a way for the priest to lead the faithful to God. The Priest and the faithful all face God and it is obviously a sacrifice that is taking place. I have only ever been to one Ad Orientum Novus Ordo Mass and it is two states away from me so I can’t go to it whenever I want to, although I would if I could. When the priest faces the people the nature of the sacrifice is taken away and the Mass becomes more of a meal. And the priest is no longer facing God, it is as if we are there to worship ourselves.

SC also never called for female altar servers, it only called for Eucharistic ministers in unusual circumstances. It also said that there should be a period of silence, that Gregorian Chant should be the norm, and that the music shouldn’t take away from the sacredness of the Mass.

Almost every Catholic Mass that you go to every weekend goes against what SC say. The priest faces the people, the Eucharist is distributed in the hand, Eucharisitic ministers distribute communion in usual circumstances, there are female altar servers, guitars, drums, no silence, and there is basically never Gregorian Chant. When Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi received Holy Communion at the Pope’s Mass it was very disheartening for me. I don’t understand hoe Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi are Catholics in good standing but the SSPX are not. I am really having a crisis of faith about this, and I am a husband and a father of two boys with one more boy on the way. I want them all to go to Heaven so I want to follow Jesus the way he wants to be followed. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[McCall1981]

I struggle with some of these same things you mention here, and lately more so since I now have a baby daughter.

I think, when we consider Vatican II and the Liturgy, it’s important to keep in mind what Pope Benedict recently said about how there was the (true) Council of the Fathers, and a (false) Council of the Media. Many of the documents of Vat II have been abused in the decades since, and that is very sad. I think we have to keep in mind that the documents and teachings themselves are not only good, but are from God. It is the abuses of them that is the problem. When I keep in mind that we have something good at the core, it makes it easier for me to be patient with the problems.

We live in a fallen world, and it will never be perfect or be what we want it to be. While that is painful, it is also an opportunity to refine out faith in the fire so to speak.

Mother Theresa said something to the effect of “God doesn’t call us to be successful, He calls us to be faithful”. Try to take this to heart and remember that in the situation we are all in, God doesn’t call you to fix the situation, or even to be happy about it. He calls you to be faithful and do your best in whatever situation is given to you. If part of that means suffering through liturgical abuse, perhaps that is one of your crosses to carry (its certainly one of mine), and that means its an opportunity to show God your faithfulness even in difficult times.

 

[JM3]

I want to follow Jesus the way he wants to be followed.

“He who is not with the Pope is not with God; and he who wants to be with God has to be with the Pope.” Sr. Lucia

 

[agnes_therese]

Almost everything you mention about the Ordinary Form is allowed by the Church. It may not be your preference, and that’s fine – if you haven’t already, you should check with your diocese to find out where and when the Extraordinary Form is available. I trust you are aware of the SSPX’s irregular status at present.

It is extremely unfair of you to say that Communion in the hand – again, allowed by the Church – is “a way to show that the person receiving does not believe that Christ is truly present.” I’m sure you didn’t intend this, but by saying that, you have gravely insulted a large number of faithful, believing, Catholics.

You complain, at the end of your post, about Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi. They (in my opinion) are among those Catholics who accept some of the Church’s teachings and not others. Please don’t join them in that attitude by accepting some of the Church’s teachings on the Mass, but not others.

Pray for clarity, and to be in union with the Church.

 

[Lormar]

Mother Theresa said something to the effect of “God doesn’t call us to be successful, He calls us to be faithful”. Try to take this to heart and remember that in the situation we are all in, God doesn’t call you to fix the situation, or even to be happy about it. He calls you to be faithful and do your best in whatever situation is given to you. If part of that means suffering through liturgical abuse, perhaps that is one of your crosses to carry (its certainly one of mine), and that means its an opportunity to show God your faithfulness even in difficult times.

Very wise words and excellent advice, McCall!

 

[clem456]

Mother Theresa said something to the effect of “God doesn’t call us to be successful, He calls us to be faithful”. Try to take this to heart and remember that in the situation we are all in, God doesn’t call you to fix the situation, or even to be happy about it. He calls you to be faithful and do your best in whatever situation is given to you. If part of that means suffering through liturgical abuse, perhaps that is one of your crosses to carry (its certainly one of mine), and that means its an opportunity to show God your faithfulness even in difficult times.

If I could just focus on this one idea and live it…so counter-cultural

 

[FAB]

I am not trying to be judgemental or rude in posting this forum. I just need some help and direction because everthing that I am about to mention causes me great spiritual anguish. I have problems determining God’s will, and I really need someone to explain to me why some of this stuff is allowed and why I should not be concerned about it. I have gone back and forth, thinking I should only go to Latin Mass, and then thinking the Novus Ordo was okay. I have even entertained the idea of attending an SSPX chapel.

I have read the Vatican II document Sacrosanctum Concilium (SC) which calls for reform of the Liturgy. I do not necessarily have an issue with the reform, or with the Novus Ordo Mass, but I have a problem with the way that it is celebrated. SC never calls for the Holy Eucharist to be distributed in the hand. I personally think that Eucharist in the hand is wrong, and there is all kinds of evidence to support that. Communion in the hand was an indult, which expired and yet it continued after its expiration. It was even started as an abuse and is a way to show that the person receiving does not believe that Christ is truly present.

SC also never called for the priest to face the people. Ad Orientum Mass is a way for the priest to lead the faithful to God. The Priest and the faithful all face God and it is obviously a sacrifice that is taking place. I have only ever been to one Ad Orientum Novus Ordo Mass and it is two states away from me so I can’t go to it whenever I want to, although I would if I could. When the priest faces the people the nature of the sacrifice is taken away and the Mass becomes more of a meal. And the priest is no longer facing God, it is as if we are there to worship ourselves.

SC also never called for female altar servers, it only called for Eucharistic ministers in unusual circumstances. It also said that there should be a period of silence, that Gregorian Chant should be the norm, and that the music shouldn’t take away from the sacredness of the Mass.

Almost every Catholic Mass that you go to every weekend goes against what SC say. The priest faces the people, the Eucharist is distributed in the hand, Eucharisitic ministers distribute communion in usual circumstances, there are female altar servers, guitars, drums, no silence, and there is basically never Gregorian Chant. When Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi received Holy Communion at the Pope’s Mass it was very disheartening for me. I don’t understand hoe Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi are Catholics in good standing but the SSPX are not. I am really having a crisis of faith about this, and I am a husband and a father of two boys with one more boy on the way. I want them all to go to Heaven so I want to follow Jesus the way he wants to be followed. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The answer is to folllow our shepherds of the church, Our Pope and our Bishops. They are the teachers of the church, translators of the documents as well as enforcers. Stop listening to the voices that want to indicate otherwise.

The SSPX is in a single word wrong.

There is nothing wrong with the Ordinary form of the mass and the sacrafice HAS NOT been taken away.

Women servers, EMHC and communion in the hand have all been examined and approved by our Shepherds. The focus of the mass is the sacrafice at the table, it is why it is reverence before and after mass, not the tabernacle.

The chant is to hold a special place in worship, but not the only form of music allowed.

As far as the politicians who recieve the Eucharist. It comes down the a matter of thier ouwn conscience, and it will be God who makes the final judgement, can any of really call ouselves worthy, yet Christ came for the sinner. Let those without sin casre the first stone. We cannot condemn the sinner.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

I believe that these types of things are yet another example of people valuing their own will over the will of the Church.

While some may or may not like the things described, they are allowed by the Church. The Pope is the successor of St. Peter and is the ultimate authority. Does anyone really think that in the connected world we live in, he is not aware of the things that are going on?

The church and the Holy Spirit have a higher purpose than any persons comfort or feelings. I personally like the Novus Ordo style, however, that being said, if the Holy Church decided to change things back or into another form, while I may not like them, I would not be against them either. I am willing to accept that the Church is bigger than I am and that God is at the helm with a master plan. We either have faith in Our Lord and His Church or we do not.

The Church in her wisdom as decided to allow for these options, regardless of how they started, they are allowed. While one or two parishes may be able to get away with doing things outside of the rules because no one notices, something that is happening in the vast majority of parishes in the US, has certainly been noticed. It is not for lack of noticing that these things continue.

I am sorry in advance that this comes off as a bit of a rant, but this is a subject (questioning the church, the Pope, etc.) that has really gotten me a bit heated today.

 

[GangGreen]

I can agree that much of what we see in the NO Mass was brought about out of abuses rather than organic change. I don’t believe that it was ever intended for the Mass to change as drastically as it did and that the Church eventually allowed those changes out of necessity rather than want. However, the fact that the Mass in the current form is celebrated all the way up to the Vatican says that it’s a perfectly valid Mass. The fact that churches are allowed to have tons of EMHC is unfortunate, but as long as the bishops and the pope allow it, then it is what it is. If priests are using EMHC as a way for them to take a seat and not give out communion themselves, then obviously it’s an issue.

At the end of the day, unless the Vatican comes out tomorrow and says, all Masses must face east, the language must be Latin, male alter servers only, the old rubrics must be followed, Communion rails must be in every church and only on the tongue, only priests can distribute the Eucharist, etc. then NO Mass and any of its trickle down changes will continue to valid and that’s it.

I disagree with many of the NO changes, but that doesn’t prevent me from going to it and I seeing it as a valid Mass.

If you prefer to go to the EF of the Mass, then feel free, however, no Catholic should think of anything that the Church does as invalid.

 

[agnes_therese]

If I could just focus on this one idea and live it…so counter-cultural

Properly speaking (and properly lived), Catholicism itself is counter-cultural.

So – does that make us the new hippies?

 

[CatholicGeek1]

The answer is to folllow our shepherds of the church, Our Pope and our Bishops. They are the teachers of the church, translators of the documents as well as enforcers. Stop listening to the voices that want to indicate otherwise.

The SSPX is in a single word wrong.

There is nothing wrong with the Ordinary form of the mass and the sacrafice HAS NOT been taken away.

Women servers, EMHC and communion in the hand have all been examined and approved by our Shepherds. The focus of the mass is the sacrafice at the table, it is why it is reverence before and after mass, not the tabernacle.

The chant is to hold a special place in worship, but not the only form of music allowed.

As far as the politicians who recieve the Eucharist. It comes down the a matter of thier ouwn conscience, and it will be God who makes the final judgement, can any of really call ouselves worthy, yet Christ came for the sinner. Let those without sin casre the first stone. We cannot condemn the sinner.

 

[Southern]

There are many changes in the Church since Vatican II has been in place that do displease God but as long as the Priest says in the Mass… " This IS my body and This IS my blood" then it is valid. The alter servers are only meant to be Boys for the fact that many people do not know it is a form of a vocation. This will teach Boys who Christ may be calling to be Priest. This is why Girls should not be at the alter. I too am disappointed with the changes but we do the best we can and God will bless that. However hold on because there are more changes to come since the devil is in the Church trying to destroy it from within. He hates the Catholic Church. Even Christ said though His Church will prevail against the gates of Hell. Why do you think we are the most hated and persecuted religion? They hated him first so they will hate us too! Lift up your heads for your redemption draws nigh! He is Risen! God Bless!!

 

[Aquila_Lucis]

Please don’t join them in that attitude by accepting some of the Church’s teachings on the Mass, but not others.

Pray for clarity, and to be in union with the Church.

Totally took the words out of my mouth.

 

[Cath4life]

He calls you to be faithful and do your best in whatever situation is given to you. If part of that means suffering through liturgical abuse, perhaps that is one of your crosses to carry (its certainly one of mine), and that means its an opportunity to show God your faithfulness even in difficult times.

Very True! It’s definitely a cross to bear. I don’t have close access to a latin mass and as much as I would LOVE to hear the gregorian chant, male altar servers, communion in the tongue, etc. The nearest latin mass is about 22 miles and not feasible.

I too, must accept my situation and deal with the Eucharistic Ministers dressed in sneakers and jeans, the girl altar severs with the makeup, the lack of reverence, cell texting, etc. A lot of the OP’s liturgical concerns are allowed in my diocesis

 

[paul11b]

I just want to say that I never said that the Novus Ordo was invalid, I know that it is a valid Mass. And I have never seen Pope Francis celebrate Mass, but I know that Benedict XVI only distributed Communion on the tongue while kneeling, if we are to follow the Pope then why didn’t the majority of priests follow his example? Also comparing me to Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi is ridiculous, I do accept all of the Churches teachings on the Mass, I have read many of the Papal encyclicals, Sacrosanctum Concilium, some other documents of Vatican II (not all but I’m working on it), points of view from both sides, and the fact of the matter is that the ordinary way of receiving Holy Communion is on the tongue while kneeling. I do agree with all of the Vatican documents, and what the Church teaches. Communion on the hand is an indult and should not be the norm, many Bishops have affirmed this. It seems to me that I am trying to obey the teachings of the Church, but that the indults have become the norm and then I am accused of disobedience by actually wanting to follow what the Vatican II documents said. Much of what you guys said is helpful, (like Mcall thank you very much for your post) and I am not trying to be rude, but I really don’t like being compared to Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi when I do accept what the Church teaches about the Mass, but what we get at your average parish is not the Mass that the council fathers intended.

 

[coachdennis]

Almost everything you mention about the Ordinary Form is allowed by the Church. It may not be your preference, and that’s fine – if you haven’t already, you should check with your diocese to find out where and when the Extraordinary Form is available. I trust you are aware of the SSPX’s irregular status at present.

It is extremely unfair of you to say that Communion in the hand – again, allowed by the Church – is “a way to show that the person receiving does not believe that Christ is truly present.” I’m sure you didn’t intend this, but by saying that, you have gravely insulted a large number of faithful, believing, Catholics.

You complain, at the end of your post, about Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi. They (in my opinion) are among those Catholics who accept some of the Church’s teachings and not others. Please don’t join them in that attitude by accepting some of the Church’s teachings on the Mass, but not others.

Pray for clarity, and to be in union with the Church.

 

[porthos11]

Sacrosanctum concilium is not the end-all of liturgical documents. Also in force are the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, the rubrics of the Roman Missal itself, the General Norms on the Liturgical Year and Calendar, and the various documents issued by the Pope and the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Most all of the things you mentioned are ALLOWED.

Yes, there is much abuse out there and there are banal celebrations of the Ordinary Form. Yes, there is bad music.

But the question is: what are YOU doing about it? Have you approached your pastor to volunteer for the choir? Have you offered to chant a weekday mass in Gregorian for starters? Have you gotten involved in your parish liturgical planning board to voice your concerns and ideas?

As for the SSPX: don’t even consider it. Their priests are suspended and have no faculties, which means their Masses are illicit and their confessions invalid. If you want the EF, go to the FSSP or some other group in good standing with the Holy See.

 

[FAB]

There are many changes in the Church since Vatican II has been in place that do displease God QUOTE]

And you know this how?? You know better that the pope and Bishops? Somehow you think they are working to displease God? perhaps you need to think again on your statement.

 

[JM3]

what we get at your average parish is not the Mass that the council fathers intended.

It is not your place to make this judgment.

CCC 1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.75 From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to “obey and submit” to the Church’s leaders,76 holding them in respect and affection.77…

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I was fortunate to be able to take a class that discussed how we got from the 1962 Missal to the Missal of Paul VI. The single best thing about this class was being able to read this document.

“Inter oecumenici” is what was given to the Concilium, established by Paul VI

“to carry out the directives of the Constitution and of Sacram Liturgiam and to provide the means for interpreting these documents and putting them into practice.”

It is well worth the read, but I will quote 2 parts here, first the introduction

I. NATURE OF THIS INSTRUCTION

1. Among the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council’s primary achievements must be counted the Constitution on the Liturgy, since it regulates the most exalted sphere of the Church’s activity. The document will have ever richer effects as pastors and faithful alike deepen their understanding of its genuine spirit and with good will put it into practice.

1. The Consilium, which Pope Paul VI established by the Motu Proprio Sacram Liturgiam, has promptly taken up its two appointed tasks: to carry out the directives of the Constitution and of Sacram Liturgiam and to provide the means for interpreting these documents and putting them into practice.

1. That these documents should immediately be properly carried out everywhere and any possible doubts on interpretation removed are matters of the utmost importance. Therefore, by papal mandate, the Consilium has prepared the present Instruction. It sets out more sharply the functions of conferences of bishops in liturgical matters, explains more fully those principles stated in general terms in the aforementioned documents, and authorizes or mandates that those measures that are practicable before revision of the liturgical books go into effect immediately.

And this, that addresses the OP assertion that “Mass facing the people” was never intended by VII.

II. MAIN ALTAR

1. The main altar should preferably be freestanding, to permit walking around it and celebration facing the people. Its location in the place of worship should be truly central so that the attention of the whole congregation naturally focuses there.