Questions about the SDA?

[huck]

Sunday is the day of the Resurrection. It’s only logical that as Christians we celebrate the day our Lord rose from the dead.

Actually that’s not true. MT 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the
heart of the earth. So Jesus was crucified on Wednesday evening, He rose Saturday evening and then he was discovered Sunday morning.

 

[JSRG]

Hello,

I am a Christian, who was christened catholic at a young age and in the past few years I’ve become closer to god. I met a gentleman who is a Seventh Day Adventist. We had a pleasant talk, but he brought up some things I need some clarifications on.

I’ll respond to a few of the major points you bring up:

On “Vicarius Fili Dei”. Well, first, the claim that it’s on the pope’s mitre is a fiction as far as I can tell. Further, “Vicarius Fili Dei” is not an official title of the pope and that main reason anyone even knows of it is because it got used in a forgery called the Donation of Constantine.

As for the claim the Catholic Church changed the worship day from Sabbath/Saturday to Sunday, the usual claim is this happened sometime around the time of Constantine. Problem is, this change actually occurred well before that. For example, “Dialogue with Trypho” (mid second century) talks repeatedly about how Christians don’t observe the Sabbath.

Sometimes you’ll see quotes from Catholics talking about how the Catholic Church changed Sabbath to Sunday (usually as part of some well-intentioned but poorly argued apologetic against Protestants who worship on Sunday). See here on that:

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-lords-day-is-not-a-christian-sabbath

Another is you will see quotes from earlier Christians mentioning assembling for worship on the Sabbath. But if you look at these, you will see that they are simply the act of assembling for worship (note many of these will also mention Sunday worship), not actual Sabbath rest.

Beyond that, these two sites are useful:
https://blog.theotokos.co.za (Catholic)
https://amazingfiction.org (Protestant)

The latter site has some arguments that I expect a Catholic wouldn’t agree with (it is Protestant, after all), but I post it anyway because it means the author can’t be accused of Catholic bias.

 

[JSRG]

Dougbro1:

Sunday is the day of the Resurrection. It’s only logical that as Christians we celebrate the day our Lord rose from the dead.

Actually that’s not true. MT 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the
heart of the earth. So Jesus was crucified on Wednesday evening, He rose Saturday evening and then he was discovered Sunday morning.

Huh? This argument doesn’t make any sense at all. I know some people do argue that the Crucifixion occurred on Wednesday because that (according to them) is necessary for the “three days and three nights” to pass prior to the Resurrection. But that viewpoint is dependent on a Sunday resurrection. It doesn’t make any sense at all to use the “three days and three nights” claim as an argument for a Saturday resurrection and Wednesday crucifixion when the whole rationale for suggesting a Wednesday crucifixion to begin with was that the Resurrection occurred on Sunday!

Of course, all that requires that there be something wrong with the idea that “three days and three nights” is incompatible with a Friday Crucifixion and Sunday Resurrection to begin with. For a discussion on that, here here is a post by Jimmy Akin.

 

[huck]

For a discussion on that, here here is a post by Jimmy Akin.

The present technology makes it possible for an individual posting an opinion page to create an ability for readers to comment. Apparently Akin felt it was best to not permit individuals to comment on his writings. Since Akin doesn’t consider his views to be able to withstand comments as a general rule I ignore these informational pages.
With regards to the above a Wednesday crucifixon would allow a Saturday resurection.

 

[JSRG]

JSRG:

For a discussion on that, here here is a post by Jimmy Akin.

The present technology makes it possible for an individual posting an opinion page to create an ability for readers to comment. Apparently Akin felt it was best to not permit individuals to comment on his writings. Since Akin doesn’t consider his views to be able to withstand comments as a general rule I ignore these informational pages.

Well, if you won’t read it, then the really short version is he notes that a Friday crucifixion isn’t a required dogma of the faith, so a Wednesday crucifixion is possible in Catholicism (though it has its own timeline problems). But Jewish counting of the era considered part of a timespan to count as the full timespan (in this case “one day and one night”). Thus a part of a day/night (Friday), a full day/night (Saturday), and part of a day/night (Sunday) count as three days.

With regards to the above a Wednesday crucifixon would allow a Saturday resurection.

Not with the interpretation of a “day and a night” meaning a full day and full night. That requires three full days. If Jesus is buried on Wednesday, then we need the full Thursday (day and night), full Friday (day and night), and full Saturday (day and night), and then a Sunday resurrection. If you have a Saturday resurrection with this interpretation of the days and nights then you have to have the Crucifixion occur on Tuesday.

As for the claims of a Saturday resurrection, there is no statement of a Saturday resurrection in the Bible. One can claim it is possible given that the women got there shortly after sunrise on Sunday and thus Jesus could have risen and left the day before, but that’s still an assumption rather than a definite fact… and all the early Christian writings, as far as I can tell, assert it occurred on Sunday.

Jesus’s prophecy referring to Sunday is even supported by the Pharisees, who clearly understood the prophecy to refer to a Sunday resurrection, given that they went to Pilate on Saturday (the day after Preparation Day, Matthew 27:62). It would be too late for them do it then it was supposed to occur on a Saturday based on the timeline Jesus asserted.

 

[ahs]

The present technology makes it possible for an individual posting an opinion page to create an ability for readers to comment. Apparently Akin felt it was best to not permit individuals to comment on his writings. Since Akin doesn’t consider his views to be able to withstand comments as a general rule I ignore these informational pages.
With regards to the above a Wednesday crucifixon would allow a Saturday resurection.

In other words, “I like to argue more than I like to learn; and if a learning opportunity doesn’t provide me with an open forum for arguing, I won’t bother to learn at all.”

Akin does allow for comments on his writings…right here in these forums and via the radio show (Catholic Answers Live) in which he frequently is a guest and takes open forum questions.

It’s also fallacious to attempt to argue that, since commenting is not made available on a website, that therefore the information is not worth reading or is incapable of withstanding scrutiny.

 

[huck]

Not with the interpretation of a “day and a night” meaning a full day and full night. That requires three full days. If Jesus is buried on Wednesday, then we need the full Thursday (day and night), full Friday (day and night), and full Saturday (day and night), and then a Sunday resurrection. If you have a Saturday resurrection with this interpretation of the days and nights then you have to have the Crucifixion occur on Tuesday.

It’s evening and morning not morning and evening. Sundown starts the new Jewish day. If Jesus died prior to sundown on Wednesday then you have Thursday evening and morning, Friday evening and morning, and Saturday Evening and Morning. In Jewish terms he would rise Sunday evening. In western terms (where time is counted midnight to midnight) it would be Saturday evening.

As for the claims of a Saturday resurrection, there is no statement of a Saturday resurrection in the Bible. One can claim it is possible given that the women got there shortly after sunrise on Sunday and thus Jesus could have risen and left the day before, but that’s still an assumption rather than a definite fact… and all the early Christian writings, as far as I can tell, assert it occurred on Sunday.

Do you ever wonder why we don’t celebrate Passover, since that’s when the crucifixon happened? Christianity doesn’t celebrate Shavout/Pentecost either. The reason is because the Church chose to divorce itself from Judaism, therefore, they made there own Holydays.

 

[JSRG]

It’s evening and morning not morning and evening. Sundown starts the new Jewish day. If Jesus died prior to sundown on Wednesday then you have Thursday evening and morning, Friday evening and morning, and Saturday Evening and Morning. In Jewish terms he would rise Sunday evening. In western terms (where time is counted midnight to midnight) it would be Saturday evening.

I’m very aware of the fact that the Jews counted sundown as the start of the next day. Which is exactly why even if the Resurrection was anytime after 7PM(ish) Saturday it would count as Sunday. Hence, Sunday Resurrection even if in the 7PM-12AM time period on Saturday.

However, even under our more modern reckoning of midnight being the start of the new day, a Resurrection between midnight and when the women got there (soon after sunrise) would count as Sunday.

Do you ever wonder why we don’t celebrate Passover, since that’s when the crucifixon happened? Christianity doesn’t celebrate Shavout/Pentecost either. The reason is because the Church chose to divorce itself from Judaism, therefore, they made there own Holydays.

I’m not sure what this has to do with what I was saying.

 

[huck]

I’m not sure what this has to do with what I was saying.

and all the early Christian writings, as far as I can tell, assert it occurred on Sunday.

It appears to me that the early church leaders wanted to separate themselves from Judaism and therefore created new Holydays, changed the sabbath to Sunday, and created there own laws.

 

[JSRG]

JSRG:

I’m not sure what this has to do with what I was saying.

and all the early Christian writings, as far as I can tell, assert it occurred on Sunday.

It appears to me that the early church leaders wanted to separate themselves from Judaism and therefore created new Holydays, changed the sabbath to Sunday, and created there own laws.

Still confused as to your point. My guess is you’re trying to claim that the reason the early Christians all stated the resurrection was on Sunday was because they wanted to separate from Judaism, but this is just speculation on your part–or if it is more than speculation, you haven’t posted any evidence for it. For that matter, you never gave any explanation as to what your reasoning for the Resurrection being on Saturday was either.

I’m just very confused at this point as to what your point actually is in this topic. You’ve just made a few speculative claims without substantiating them, and ignored counterpoints like what I mentioned with the Pharisees.

 

[huck]

The basis of the claim that he rose on Saturday is the prophecy of 3 days and 3 nights.
MT 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
MT 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
MT 27:61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting
over against the sepulchre.
MT 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation,
the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
My claim is that the Crucifixon took place on Wednesday, and Jesus rose on Saturday. The soldiers would have gone to the tomb on Thursday.

 

[JSRG]

The basis of the claim that he rose on Saturday is the prophecy of 3 days and 3 nights.
MT 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
MT 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
MT 27:61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting
over against the sepulchre.
MT 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation,
the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
My claim is that the Crucifixon took place on Wednesday, and Jesus rose on Saturday. The soldiers would have gone to the tomb on Thursday.

You’re not making sense.

Firstly, as has been noted, if the Crucifixion was on Wednesday, “three days and three nights” (if we require three full days and three full nights even though as has also been noted, Jewish reckoning of time didn’t necessarily require that), then the Resurrection would be on Sunday. We need Thursday-Friday-Saturday to have the full three days/nights. A Saturday resurrection, again if we require three full days and three full nights, creates a Tuesday Crucifixion.

But even if we accept that a Wednesday Crucifixion somehow requires a Saturday Resurrection, that just moves the unsubstantiated explanation back a step, as you’ve simply asserted your claim of Wednesday Crucifixion without any proof. Again, people who argue for Wednesday Crucifixion normally do it in the opposite way, by starting with a Sunday resurrection and then asserting that a Wednesday Crucifixion is required for it. You’re throwing out the entire reason people suggest a Wednesday Crucifixion without providing any new rationale.

 

[huck]

Let’s say Jesus died Wednesday afternoon. Wednesday night, Thursday daytime, Thursday night, Friday Daytime, Friday night Saturday Daytime. Jesus rising sometime Saturday night would make 3 days and 3 nights…
Using the Jewish method of determining days, Thursday night, Thursday Day, Friday night, Friday day, Saturday night Saturday day. Jesus rising sometime Sunday night would make 3 days and 3 nights.

 

[GiftofMercy]

The problem with your thinking is that Jesus died on Passover. Jesus died a few hours before the beginning of the Jewish Sabbath.

 

[lilypadrees]

The Catholic Church is not a cult.

Your SDA friend has it all wrong.

SDAs are known for being very anti-Catholic.

The only thing I find good about them is most are vegetarians or vegans. Those who eat meat don’t eat meats that are considered unclean like pork.

 

[JSRG]

Let’s say Jesus died Wednesday afternoon. Wednesday night, Thursday daytime, Thursday night, Friday Daytime, Friday night Saturday Daytime. Jesus rising sometime Saturday night would make 3 days and 3 nights…
Using the Jewish method of determining days, Thursday night, Thursday Day, Friday night, Friday day, Saturday night Saturday day. Jesus rising sometime Sunday night would make 3 days and 3 nights.

Well, now I feel even more confused about what your point was supposed to be, but it seems like you’re actually agreeing with me now, so I suppose I can conclude it there.

 

[drac16]

The SDA church has some extremely unbiblical teachings. They don’t believe that Hell is eternal and they believe in a female prophetess. I’ve got problems with both of those ideas. They try to eat healthy diets, which is good, I suppose. Theologically though, it’s a mess.

 

[fhansen]

People are always looking for a means to set themselves apart in order to feel holier than the crowd. And the RCC with it’s long and varied history provides a meaty target to set oneself in opposition to. 19th century America was especially fertile soil for all kinds of new spirituality and flim flam artists and wild prophecies. JWs and SDA, sister groups with common origins, were absolutely certain of their understandings of Scripture, with false and failed prophecies abounding regarding Christ’s second coming-along with being anti-Catholic from the get-go. As for the Book of Daniel or Revelation all I can say is “get serious”! No one knows what they mean with any degree of specificity, but since they’re open to many different interpretations, people find in them whatever they’re hoping to find.

 

[nearlycatholic]

I was a SDA for years and years. It nearly destroyed my faith, my marriage, stole every ounce of Christian joy. Once in their clutch you will see and hear the absolute most virulent anti Catholic sentiment and hear the most outrageous lies and misrepresentations of the Catholic faith. You cannot separate SDA theology from the writings of EGW. The “church” claims she never called her self a prophet in spite of her saying that rejecting her writings (Testimonies) is to reject the precious rays of light God gave her along with the movement’s own claims of prophet status. You should turn tail and run as far and fast from the Adventism as possible. You may meet some “nice” people but from experience look out, run the opposite direction, beware and stay away from their private interpretation of Scripture. Because “Luther and all the great reformers” make a claim doesn’t validate the claim itself. Luther was a rebel apostate priest. I wouldn’t take his word for anything. SDA church will tell you Catholics changed Sabbath, the 10 commandments and everything else. HOGWASH! They along with every other band of renegades pick up the Bible (incomplete one by the way) and interpret it to what they’ve already decided it means to fit their particular statement of belief as if it was written to their denomination at the time of its founding. BEWARE