Questions about traditional Catholicism

[Glorthac]

I’m new to Catholicism as a whole, and I was born in 1990, so pardon me if I don’t have a clue about what Catholicism is supposed to look like in traditional Catholic’s minds.

So you say I shouldn’t hold peoples hands during the Our Father? And wearing jeans is forbidden I take it? What should I wear? What do I do if I don’t have a car and the only 2 parishes in my reach do the Novus Ordo mass?

Those questions are sorta for an example. Traditional Catholicism is so foreign to me, I don’t even know what to ask. So if you could, explain in great detail what you would like to see happen, and how I could help you reach your goals.

Thanks!

 

[Edward_H]

On the holding of hands and Our Father.

If you think holding hands can add to the unity that Jesus Himself offers us in His Presence in the Eucharist, by all means hold hands.

This is the key point. A large number of Catholics don’t truly understand the Real Presence, and so are easily moved by mere human signs like hand holding. If they only knew and appreciated His presence, they’d realize that nothing humans did short of consuming Him would add an iota of unity/feeling/emotion to the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

 

[Lycorth]

I’m new to Catholicism as a whole, and I was born in 1990, so pardon me if I don’t have a clue about what Catholicism is supposed to look like in traditional Catholic’s minds.

So you say I shouldn’t hold peoples hands during the Our Father?

No, we shouldn’t. What’s wrong with just folding one’s hands in a traditional manner during the Our Father? Why do people feel like they have to hold hands? It can put off people who don’t care to be overly tactile, it risks spreading illness in the case that someone is sick, and it’s almost as if people assume that the Our Father is meaningless unless hand-holding goes on.

A simple, unassuming, non-invasive prayer posture is best.

And wearing jeans is forbidden I take it?

It’s certainly looked down upon; jeans are common clothing. Why not wear something nice to go and spend time with the Lord? Since He is present in the Blessed Sacrament, why not go the extra mile and put on some nice clothes for the occasion? After all, if you were going to visit an important human, you’d probably put nice clothes on and even disregard a nice, new pair of jeans in favor of something a little higher up.

It’s the mentality I try to take, and I like jeans. I live in them and I don’t feel comfortable in dress clothes all the time. But for Mass, for that most special hour I can spend each week, I want to dress up and go the extra mile; Catholicism isn’t about just doing the bare minimum to get by on, but going the extra mile to cultivate a truly reverent life.

What should I wear?

For me, it depends on the weather, but I’ll either wear a nice pair of slacks and a polo shirt in warm weather, or a suit in cooler weather.

What do I do if I don’t have a car and the only 2 parishes in my reach do the Novus Ordo mass?

Do what I do - just bring a traditional mindset of reverence with you. There’s no reason Catholics can’t dress nice and fold their hands prayerfully during the OF. It’s not just an “EF thing” because all the people at an EF-only church dress up and so on. It ought to be the way all Catholics approach all instances of church going.

Those questions are sorta for an example. Traditional Catholicism is so foreign to me, I don’t even know what to ask. So if you could, explain in great detail what you would like to see happen, and how I could help you reach your goals.

Thanks!

See above. One of the goals of many Traditionalist Catholics is to see greater reverence restored to daily Catholic life. Until the Church decides to tighten up standards and practices, it’s up to us in the pews to willingly choose to go the extra mile and do things in the most traditional way we can.

Of course, this hinges on us knowing that we aren’t reviving traditional practices and behaviors just for their sake, or even for our own amusement, but in order to deepen our faith and groom our spiritual lives in the most efficaciously Catholic way possible, as well as to be a good example to fellow Catholics. We must always consider how we appear to our fellow believers, as we are not islands unto ourselves.

 

[St_Francis]

I’m new to Catholicism as a whole, and I was born in 1990, so pardon me if I don’t have a clue about what Catholicism is supposed to look like in traditional Catholic’s minds.

So you say I shouldn’t hold peoples hands during the Our Father? And wearing jeans is forbidden I take it? What should I wear? What do I do if I don’t have a car and the only 2 parishes in my reach do the Novus Ordo mass?

First of all, don’t listen to people who say that the NO Mass (now OF Mass) is not valid. The Church approves it, and the Church is the authority in this.

As to the Our Father, I do not like hand-holding. In our society, that is seen as a sign of a certain amount of intimacy, and I am a married woman and I don’t want to hold some strange man’s hand.

Not to mention people with arthritis or some pain in their hands. The whole thing is just an insane idea. I also folded my hands even in churches where they crossed the aisle to get everyone in a sort of line.

As to clothing, the idea of not dressing up for Mass, for a visit to our Redeemer, is not right. First of all, it is based on a heretical notion that what is material is bad, and that we are bad, and that there is no reason to prettify ourselves. We have great dignity because we are made in the Image and Likeness of God! We should be dressed appropriately for all occasions. (Here’s an MP3 which has a reference to this; I think it’s the Calvinism and America one. if you like to listen to stuff, there is a wealth of things on this site.)

It may be that someone would only have jeans to wear, but then wear a nice pair, not one that hangs below one’s underwear or has “fashionable” rips in it or is very faded. Wear a nice shirt with a collar with it, not a tank top or t-shirt with the name of a heavy metal band on it. And hie thee to a thrift shop, where you can get a nice pair of pants or a nice dress (not mini-length!) for very little money.

Those questions are sorta for an example. Traditional Catholicism is so foreign to me, I don’t even know what to ask. So if you could, explain in great detail what you would like to see happen, and how I could help you reach your goals.

Thanks!

 

[ljubim]

I’m new to Catholicism as a whole, and I was born in 1990, so pardon me if I don’t have a clue about what Catholicism is supposed to look like in traditional Catholic’s minds.

I’m a year younger The whole idea is to be totally Catholic without shame and without compromise. A lot of people turn “traditional” or “orthodox” simply after educating themselves about what the Mass really is, or after getting closer to God and being disturbed by irreverence towards Him in the Blessed Sacrament. You don’t find this in most traditionalist circles (and I’m speaking of REAL Catholics in union with the Holy Father), what I’ve found is that people really care about the faith and take it very seriously (but are also very fun, funny people too… the perfect balance )

So you say I shouldn’t hold peoples hands during the Our Father?

This is nowhere in the rubrics, in other words people with an agenda introduced this into the Mass. The CDWDS (Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments - they deal with liturgical abuse-related issues) has condemned any effort of the faithful to imitate the posture of the priest(specifically referring to this Our Father charismatic hands/orans posture issue) - the agenda behind it is a blur of the Christ-given contrast between priest and layperson, with all of its dirty little implications.

And wearing jeans is forbidden I take it? What should I wear?

Because trads see the Mass as it is - the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, literally placing you right there at the foot of the cross as Christ gives Himself for us (the most important moment in all of history and all of eternity!!), why would you dress like it’s a lazy day at school, or like you’re lounging around the house? This is the most important event we’ll attend in our entire lives - so we wear the best thing we’ve got!!

What do I do if I don’t have a car and the only 2 parishes in my reach do the Novus Ordo mass?

Do you know the closest TLM to you? (traditional latin Mass) You can always call the priest and ask if he knows of any parishioners who go there from your area, and perhaps you can pay a bit towards their gas. My first TLM (Sunday after last Christmas!) I attended while out of town - if you’re going to a city in the near future, check out public transportation and get yourself to one! Especially the bigger TLM communities have even better choirs, and perhaps older, more beautiful church buildings, which makes the experience even more flooring I was bawling my eyes out at my first one, it was so beautiful and just felt right.

Those questions are sorta for an example. Traditional Catholicism is so foreign to me, I don’t even know what to ask. So if you could, explain in great detail what you would like to see happen, and how I could help you reach your goals.

Thanks!

I really like your enthusiasm!! I’m sure you’ve also noticed the bad state the Church is in… it is up to the younger people like us to change things. Like the last poster said, the goal is to introduce more reverence, but also we need to reject any form of Cafeteria Catholicism. I guess I’ll just make a list:
-We bow our heads at the name “Jesus,” the Holy Name. His Name is so powerful a prayer, that for example, just repeating this Name and carrying It about on one’s person stopped an entire archdiocese from being consumed by an epidemic.
-Make the sign of the cross often especially when an ambulance passes by with sirens (also saying the ‘eternal rest’ prayer), when passing by a parish (the Tabernacle with the Body of Our Lord is in there!), or when passing by a cemetery (eternal rest also very appropriate).
-Make reparation when people blaspheme the Lord’s name, even if you just make the sign of the cross over your heart, and finish their sentence for them. God… have mercy. Jesus (nod your head)… have mercy.
-Pray unceasingly! There are many ejaculations (mini prayers) that you can say throughout the day at different occasions, and it gets more natural the more you practice.
-Weekly confession! How will you get closer to God if you don’t remain in a state of grace?
-Gain indulgences as often as you can! Nearly every prayer is indulgenced somehow. Sometimes gain them for your own soul, but once you feel you’re on steady ground (as in all past mortal sins are, to the best of your knowledge, atoned for) offer them up to souls in purgatory, especially the ones in most need of God’s mercy.
-Daily Mass if you can/feel comfortable (the ones I can get to are often replete with troubling abuses - I’m torn between sometimes going and trying not to have my faith shaken and leave disturbed
-Read up on the Church documents! Some are dry reading, others are suprisingly interesting.
-Adoration daily if you can… even if it’s unofficial, like just in front of the Tabernacle. Get very close to Our Lord and develop as much reverence as you can towards the Blessed Sacrament.
-Do your Friday penance (MANDATORY in the U.S. and around the world.) The US bishops have voted that you don’t have to give up meat, you can pick something else if you want. Well the fact is, people just gave up the Friday Penance altogether because of this loosening of practice. Just stick with going meatless though

(continued)

 

[ljubim]

(continued)

And here’s some devotions at Mass that you’ll want to pray very hard about, and educate yourself about. If you just start up with them, without really feeling like God would like you to do this, then you’re not ready or aren’t meant to do this. IOW, make sure your heart’s into it and you’re not just being ‘loyal to the cause.’
-Chapel veil (if you’re a girl)
-Kneeling to receive the Eucharist
-Receiving on the tongue
-Keeping your hands palm to palm and finger to finger, not with your fingers intertwined.
-Consider skipping the sign of peace. God’s there on the altar, you owe nothing to anybody else around you. Adore Him, especially at rowdy parishes where people seem to adore each other more

Also more things about Mass:
-Don’t talk inside the building unless it’s absolutely necessary.
-Whatever you do, don’t clap! It’s not a performance, and we’re not celebrating each other.
-Genuflect towards the tabernace (duh ) and the slower you take it, the more chance you have to whisper words of love and adoration to Our Lord before you sit/head out.
-Don’t be intimidated by the synchronized sitters after Communion. When you’re done praying, sit, or take the whole time until the priest continues with the Mass.
-Find prayers before and after communion, such as those of St. Thomas Aquinas, that can help to guide your thoughts and heart to more worthily receive.
-Don’t hold hands, or raise hands. Keep your hands folded in prayer the whole time.
-At the Novus Ordo, bow deeply when the incarnation is mentioned in the creed. Also strike your chest (not violently or anything ) at the “through my fault” in the Confiteor (sorry, can’t remember the exact words… that’s what the TLM will do to you, it’s like nothing else exists!)
-Kneel after Mass, especially if it ended hastily (remember, you have about 15 minutes with Our Lord after you have received. Use it well!) and don’t be afraid of what others think of you.
-Kneel for the consecration of course! Even if it hurts because some fool got rid of the kneelers.

And you’ve got to experience the Latin Mass!! Your life will never be the same again, and you will never look forward to Mass so much. Once you go, invite friends and pray that God will touch their hearts. People really care about the Faith there. Hopefully they’ll have events that you can meet the other parishioners… it’s beautiful to meet people just like you, who really care as much as you do.

The loss of tradition, in all respects, is destroying the Church and losing souls. Anything we can do, with charity and in union with our very traditional Pope, will be blessed by God and will lead us much closer to Him. Feel free to PM me any time

EDIT: Forgot devotions involving blessed medals/scapulars/copious use of holy water. Sacramentals are awesome

 

[MarkThompson]

God’s there on the altar, you owe nothing to anybody else around you. Adore Him,

Just to be clear, if you’re going to keep to the last portion of what I clipped, then you owe everything to those around you. Whether or not that means you like the sign of peace is a different issue, but let’s please not think that “life is about me and God.” You could hardly come closer to the exact opposite of everything Christ taught.

Yes, the Mass is not purely a historical recreation of any one element of Christ’s life. It has elements of the Last Supper, but we don’t do it in private houses and we don’t invite only priests. It has elements of Calvary, but we eat the body, drink the blood, and celebrate the Resurrection, which those assembled certainly did not do at Calvary. Christ said very little about how we are to worship him, and a great deal about how we are to treat it other, so it hardly seems odd (or “confused priorities,” or “horizontal worship,” etc.) if we acknowledge his public ministry as well as an aspect of the Mass.

And I remember watching a very nice Sign of Peace at the TLM for the dedication of the chapel at the FSSP seminary in Nebraska.

 

[ljubim]

Just to be clear, if you’re going to keep to the last portion of what I clipped, then you owe everything to those around you. Whether or not that means you like the sign of peace is a different issue, but let’s please not think that “life is about me and God.” You could hardly come closer to the exact opposite of everything Christ taught.

Yes, the Mass is not purely a historical recreation of any one element of Christ’s life. It has elements of the Last Supper, but we don’t do it in private houses and we don’t invite only priests. It has elements of Calvary, but we eat the body, drink the blood, and celebrate the Resurrection, which those assembled certainly did not do at Calvary. Christ said very little about how we are to worship him, and a great deal about how we are to treat it other, so it hardly seems odd (or “confused priorities,” or “horizontal worship,” etc.) if we acknowledge his public ministry as well as an aspect of the Mass.

And I remember watching a very nice Sign of Peace at the TLM for the dedication of the chapel at the FSSP seminary in Nebraska.

That’s why I put it under the maybes… it might have to be taken situation by situation. At one outdoor teen Mass the priest was waiting for everybody to finish, so he let the hug-fest go on for over a minute, maybe two. When people turned back towards the altar prayerfully it was, to him, the signal to move on.

If it’s a nice sign of peace like you are talking about, then it’s a good thing. But a lot of parishes take it was overboard and make it ugly - not something I’d feel comfortable participating in, that’s why I put this.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

Glorthac,

As another poster said, your enthusiasm and approach are great. “What am I supposed to do? I’m willing to do it!” To tell you the truth, I think your best option is to go to the “lowest” Mass you can find (a lot of parishes have an early Mass, mostly for the elderly, which is just a straight-forward, relatively quick and quiet Mass). I would recommend you get yourself a traditional missal and simply read that while kneeling in the back during the Mass. I know that (or something similar) is what I would do if I ever had to go to the new rite again (which, God-willing, will never be the case). You can also pray the rosary or other prayers if you get through the entire Mass for the day in your missal. As far as what to wear, I would recommend getting a suit and tie, if you don’t have one. They don’t have to be designer clothes, but you’ll be better off getting something that will last rather than finding something cheap. There are a lot of good online forums for men’s fashion for all budgets. At the very least, you could get some ideas from those. I’m sure you must have 1,000 other questions. Unlike what many people may say, traditionalists aren’t cold people unwilling to help others. If you have any more questions, I’m sure people would be happy to answer them in this section of the forum. If you would rather send them privately, I know I would be more than happy to answer any private message questions you have at all. I’m sure there are others who would do likewise.

 

[zielwolf]

I’m new to Catholicism as a whole, and I was born in 1990, so pardon me if I don’t have a clue about what Catholicism is supposed to look like in traditional Catholic’s minds.

So you say I shouldn’t hold peoples hands during the Our Father? And wearing jeans is forbidden I take it? What should I wear? What do I do if I don’t have a car and the only 2 parishes in my reach do the Novus Ordo mass?

Those questions are sorta for an example. Traditional Catholicism is so foreign to me, I don’t even know what to ask. So if you could, explain in great detail what you would like to see happen, and how I could help you reach your goals.

Thanks!

Hello. I was brought up in a Charismatic Pentecostal church and converted to Roman Catholicism. I journeyed a long, long time through just about every expression of Christian faith before settling on the Latin Mass. That includes Charismatic, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Reformed Church, High Anglican, Broad Anglican, Low Anglican (being in Australia) and “New Order” Catholic.

I am a Catholic not because of the way the Mass is celebrated but because of what the Church teaches. I don’t believe God refuses anyone’s worship of Him if it is done in honesty and sincerity, with the sole intention of worshipping Him. I don’t worry about what is the right form or wrong form of worship because there is a world out there lost that we need to reach out to and preach to and bring into our Church to be baptised. That is our real mission. The only thing I hold to is the Apostolic succession - that is, that Christ never intended His Mystical Body to be broken into sects and shisms and that there is One Catholic Church, which is why I am here.

I worship at the traditional Mass in Latin not because I believe the rubrics are more correct, and certainly not because the music is more beautiful but because for me the liturgy is more explicit of the reality that is the Gospel than is the modern rite, and also because it builds my faith in Jesus who is Lord and Saviour. And I desperately need a liturgy which will build my faith because I am fairly weak in it.

But I don’t judge anyone who worships any other way because it is not my place to judge any one. If holding hands and lifting your hands to the Lord in praise brings you closer to Him then I am not going to risk the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by saying “you cannot worship like that”.

I go to Traditional Tridentine Latin Mass wearing jeans all the time mainly because I can’t afford new clothes at the moment LOL. But so do lots of others. And no one in our parish judges anyone by their clothes. In fact, if they did, I’m not sure I could still worship there. But they would never judge people like that so it’s of no concern. There has never been any rubric published about whether trousers or jeans are appropriate for Mass.

I would suggest: don’t be led astray by insignificant things such as clothes. Remember that Jesus openly ate and drank with tax collectors, prostitutes and “sinners” and the Pharisees accused Him for it. And His answer was: “The healthy do not need a doctor, the sick do: I haven’t come to call the righteous, but to call sinners.”

 

[zielwolf]

(continued)
-Don’t be intimidated by the synchronized sitters after Communion. When you’re done praying, sit, or take the whole time until the priest continues with the Mass.

Can you please explain what you mean by the “synchronized sitters after Communion”?

 

[IntegraCatholic]

I don’t believe God refuses anyone’s worship of Him if it is done in honesty and sincerity, with the sole intention of worshipping Him

While God will hear prayers of those who sincerely pray to him for the things that are necessary to their salvation, such as the faith, he utterly rejects their worship, which is not pleasing to him. Consider this passage from the Roman Catechism:

Another figure presents itself in the great city of Jerusalem, which, in Scripture, often means the Church. In Jerusalem only was it lawful to offer sacrifice to God, and in the Church of God only are to be found the true worship and true sacrifice which can at all be acceptable to God.

Taken from the section on the Creed, Article IX (I believe in the Catholic Church…), Figures of the Church

 

[zielwolf]

While God will hear prayers of those who sincerely pray to him for the things that are necessary to their salvation, such as the faith, he utterly rejects their worship, which is not pleasing to him. Consider this passage from the Roman Catechism:

Taken from the section on the Creed, Article IX (I believe in the Catholic Church…), Figures of the Church

That’s OK. In terms of worship acceptable to God I am speaking of the Roman Catholic Church - New Rite versus Latin rite. Both are acceptable.

The Church has always been syncretic. We are moving through “interesting” times.

I am not suggesting that worship as enacted in the rite of Holy Communion as practised in the Pentecostal church, or any other Protestant church for that matter is acceptable worship to God because, being brought up in it and having partaken of it as a teenager, I can say first-hand that firstly it is not even considered an act of worship, it is just a “symbolic memorial” during which you eat a little bread and drink a little grape juice while trying to think as much as possible about something or anything to do with the death and resurrection and while I would stop short of calling such practice blasphemous (after all, it’s the only world I knew for 18 years and I really tried my hardest), it is nonetheless desperately lacking. And I felt it.

It’s weird. Maybe it was the Holy Spirit. But even as a teenage pentecostal brought up soundly in that church, not knowing anything about transubstantiation or the Mass I felt a terrible, visceral lack whenever we “did” the facsimile of Holy Communion. It felt like a fake, but I’m not going to say that it was. That’s between God and our pastors not between God and me as a kid

 

[IntegraCatholic]

Well, of course it was a fake because it is not what our Lord called for or requires. It is a bastardization of what our Lord requires. Besides, it is just banal. That’s probably what you were sensing, the banality of the thing. My comment from the Roman Catechism was not intended to speak to non-Catholic mockeries of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass but rather to address anything that non-Catholics consider to be worship, as the document says. Whatever they do that they consider worship is not pleasing to God. Someone who does not have the Catholic faith cannot please God. This is also stated plainly in the very documents of the Council of Trent and also by St. Paul in Heb. xi. 6: Sine fide autem impossibile placere credere enim oportet accedentem ad Deum, quia est et inquirentibus se remunerator fit. Of course, no one has true faith who does not accept the entirety of the deposit of faith. Such a one is an heretic, a chooser.

 

[CradleCath]

  <snipped for brevity>

And you’ve got to experience the Latin Mass!! **Your life will never be the same again, and you will never look forward to Mass so much. **

 

[ljubim]

EXCELLENT POST!!! Hope you don’t mind if I add a thing or two.
What I’d Like to see happen:

 

[ljubim]

Can you please explain what you mean by the “synchronized sitters after Communion”?

In OF parishes I’ve been to there’s a lot of pressure to all sit together after communion, and then the priest(s) will sit for a long time with you confused and then we all stand and continue. When you’d like to pray a bit more, or are awestruck by having just received the Eucharist, and just must kneel, you’ll be labeled the pious one - a bad word these days. Just like they stare if you kneel for too long before Mass, if you wear a chapel veil, if you fold your hands palm to palm… people judge, and make you feel like a jerk to “rock the boat” and “stand out.” Granted, this for sure happens in TLM parishes, maybe with somebody dressed inappropriately, etc, but I see it a lot more in the OF, or at least the OF’s I’ve been to. True story: I was out of town and the children’s choir was singing… when they started chanting “Adoramus Te Christe” everybody turned around and looked disapprovingly at them. (And this is a huge parish… over half did this!)

I guess I’m just saying, stregthen your devotion enough that you pay no attention to what others think. That way, you won’t be tempted to pride or to feel better than them, or tempted to scrap expressing your spirituality in the approved ways of the Church, just because you know they’re looking. Make it so that they aren’t even there, and nothing they say will bother you.

MarkThompson: I was thinking more about what you said and I think you have a far better point than I do. My opinion is pretty skewed from a few bad examples I’ve seen, and to throw out the new sign of peace might be kinda like throwing the baby out with the bathwater… just like the “liturgists” did!

 

[MarkThompson]

MarkThompson: I was thinking more about what you said and I think you have a far better point than I do. My opinion is pretty skewed from a few bad examples I’ve seen, and to throw out the new sign of peace might be kinda like throwing the baby out with the bathwater… just like the “liturgists” did!

Indeed – and that’s a fine way put it; so often we hear “Babykillers! They threw the babies out because they hated children!” No, to the extent that there are problems most were caused by well-meaning but occasionally shortsighted folks who were trying to clean up the bathwater.

Anyway …

Yeah, as far as the Sign of Peace goes, I’m in the camp of those who think that it’s current position in the Mass (OF) is awkward and disruptive of the flow and development of the liturgy. Moving it back to the penitential rite would probably put it too early – pretty much right at the start of Mass – giving it a “meet-and-greet” feel. I wouldn’t feel like I had much peace to offer two minutes into the Mass. Before the Offertory strikes me as the best time.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

The kiss of peace with the faithful is entirely impractical and could no longer really happen in an organized, uplifting way. Of course, the horizontal inception of the kiss is entirely illogical and destroys the purpose of the kiss of peace in the first place. There’s just no practical way to have a kiss of peace originate at the altar and spread through a Cathedral or large church of people.