Questions about Trinity

  • Thread starter Thread starter javid
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

javid

Guest
Hi, I am Christian and I believe in Jesus as son of God, But I have several logical questions about Trirnity. I would ask the one by one.

First: How can more than one unlimited being exist?

I mean if God the father is unlimited, so there is no for another person to be unlimited.

Thank you.
 
Hi, I am Christian and I believe in Jesus as son of God, But I have several logical questions about Trirnity. I would ask the one by one.

First: How can more than one unlimited being exist?

I mean if God the father is unlimited, so there is no for another person to be unlimited.

Thank you.
… my dear friend ,

… i view it as one god with 3 aspects to that one god we call father , son and holy spirit – the blesed trinity , but still one god , the love that is them and the love they have for eachother is so beyond infinitely powerful that it perfectly unites all 3 so they are one , love unites , evil divides , hope this helps dear friend ,

… may god bless and love you 👍🙂 ,

… john …
 
Hi, I am Christian and I believe in Jesus as son of God, But I have several logical questions about Trirnity. I would ask the one by one.

First: How can more than one unlimited being exist?

I mean if God the father is unlimited, so there is no for another person to be unlimited.

Thank you.
First we’d all like to welcome you to the forum.

Now on to your great question. So Christ is the son of God. The Son is essentially a result of the fact that God the Father is omniscient. He knows everything perfectly even himself. So, that self knowledge was personified as Christ. So, they both have the same attributes because Christ is the self knowledge of God. He is the word of God and that word is a perfect representation of God. Both are love, infinite, etc. the only difference is one is the word and the other the speaker. So, as you said, how can both be unlimited. If God were inside of time and space, then yes they would be constrained and not able to both be infinite. But God is outside of space and time. That means they can both have the same attributes of omnipresence, omnipotence, etc. and still be in different places and not fundamentally be different. This is only because one came before the other though (technically one is just the begetter and the other the begotten as really this hadn’t happened in time). But if there are any other questions about the trinity don’t be afraid to ask 😃
 
First: How can more than one unlimited being exist?
There can’t. God is one being and three persons.
I mean if God the father is unlimited, so there is no for another person to be unlimited
I don’t know precisely what you intended to type here, but let me ask whether God the Father’s limitlessness affects your ability to be a limited being?
 
In the Nicene Creed, which you say at mass, Jesus Christ is said to be consubstantial (one in being) with the Father. The Son is God, just as the Father is God: one and the same substance or essence. There is no distinction between the Son and the Father in terms of substance, and so the Trinity does not comprise more than one “unlimited” being.

You should also be wary of attributing to the doctrine of the Trinity the proposition that God is a “being” in the way that you or I or anyone else who exists is a “being”. The Godhead is not simply a being among beings with attributes taken to a perfect or “unlimited” degree. To think that would be to fall into the error known as onto-theology.
 
Hi. Thank you for your helping me to understand holy trinity.

Before ask my second question, let me ask my questions about your answers:
… i view it as one god with 3 aspects to that one god we call father , son and holy spirit – the blesed trinity , but still one god , the love that is them and the love they have for eachother is so beyond infinitely powerful that it perfectly unites all 3 so they are one , love unites , evil divides , hope this helps dear friend ,
My dear friend, holy trinity doesn’t talk about one god with 3 aspects, It talks about one god and three distinct persons.

And your definition is a modalist definition.

And I don’t know what you mean “the love that is them and the love they have for eachother is so beyond infinitely powerful that it perfectly unites all 3 so they are one , love unites , evil divides”. I don’t understand it. By this definition, we must say that the distiction between persons is because of evil.
Now on to your great question. So Christ is the son of God. The Son is essentially a result of the fact that God the Father is omniscient. He knows everything perfectly even himself. So, that self knowledge was personified as Christ. So, they both have the same attributes because Christ is the self knowledge of God. He is the word of God and that word is a perfect representation of God. Both are love, infinite, etc. the only difference is one is the word and the other the speaker. So, as you said, how can both be unlimited. If God were inside of time and space, then yes they would be constrained and not able to both be infinite. But God is outside of space and time. That means they can both have the same attributes of omnipresence, omnipotence, etc. and still be in different places and not fundamentally be different. This is only because one came before the other though (technically one is just the begetter and the other the begotten as really this hadn’t happened in time)
My friend, you said: “He knows everything perfectly even himself. So, that self knowledge was personified as Christ” so christ(the son) is not a person, he is just a «self knowledge».

On the other hand, does christ know himself perfectly? so we have 3th and 4th… persons.

And I ask you: If I know my self, I am one bein and two persons?

You said: “One is just the begetter and the other the begotten as really this hadn’t happened in time.” Is it possible: A god is begotten, and another person gave him his life?
I don’t know precisely what you intended to type here, but let me ask whether God the Father’s limitlessness affects your ability to be a limited being?
My friend I am not a self-exist. God created me and my being depends to god. But Lord Jesus is God the son. He is a god without any dependence to God the fathers as Holy trinity says. If I am a self exist, so my infinitude would affect God’s infinitude.
In the Nicene Creed, which you say at mass, Jesus Christ is said to be consubstantial (one in being) with the Father. The Son is God, just as the Father is God: one and the same substance or essence. There is no distinction between the Son and the Father in terms of substance, and so the Trinity does not comprise more than one “unlimited” being.

You should also be wary of attributing to the doctrine of the Trinity the proposition that God is a “being” in the way that you or I or anyone else who exists is a “being”. The Godhead is not simply a being among beings with attributes taken to a perfect or “unlimited” degree. To think that would be to fall into the error known as onto-theology.
My friend, According to Nicene creed and Chatechisms of church, there are three persons in god’s essence and each person is perfectly God and there are only one God.

So it accepts at first that Lord Jesus Christ is a person and Father is another person.

Now I ask you: Is it possible that more two distinct unlimited? persons?

Thank you
God bless you
 
“go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”

three persons, only three persons, co-equal, and One.
 
Hi, I am Christian and I believe in Jesus as son of God, But I have several logical questions about Trirnity. I would ask the one by one.

First: How can more than one unlimited being exist?

I mean if God the father is unlimited, so there is no for another person to be unlimited.

Thank you.
I am delighted you asked this question, for I would like to share a personal understanding that I believe is strongly aligned with Catholic Teachings. Please share your Harsh Critiques on any reflection for I want to be in Perfect alignment with Catholicism.

Reflection on the Components of the Creator:
Humans are created in the image and likeness of the Creator.
The Creator is a Distinct Person, therefore has a Body like Humans, has a Mind like Humans, has a Free Will and Interactions like Humans, and an Essence like Humans.
The Creator is unlike Humans in that the Being has been, is, and will always be of Perfect Love with All Components of Being.
The Creator Timelessly lives in Absolute Peace, Happiness, Energy, and Wisdom.
The Creator wants others to Freely Love as to experience and share the Greatest Peace, Happiness, Energy, and Wisdom.
The Creator knows the only method to guide Free Willed Beings to share the experience of the Blessings of Peace, Happiness, Energy, and Wisdom with others through the Power of Patience, Kindness, Motivation, and Knowledge.

Reflection on the Method by which to Achieve This:
The Creator must devise a plan which:
-grants His Purposeful Creations Inalienable Rights to Free Will.
-grants His Creations Inalienable Rights to Free Desires.
-grants His Creations Inalienable Rights to Life.
-places His Creations in a state out of, but seeking Perfect Love.
-places His Creations in a state of unable to be Tangibly Guaranteed of His Existence, but seeking Him.

Reflection on Creation of the world:
The Creator, Perfect Love & Possessor of All, Freely Willed a Word, which is completely supportive and completely of His Free Willed Being and Perfect Loving Essence, into Flesh.
In order to Will this Creation, He had to take on a Human Nature with His Mind(The Father), His Body(The Son), and His Free Will(The Holy Spirit) to achieve His Perfect Essence.

Reflection on The Creator’s Being Becoming Flesh(The Holy Trinity)
From the beginning of time, The Creator knew Human Nature would eventually lead to Impatience and Meanness and Motivations less than Him.
The only way to guide Humans to the Essence of Perfect Love was for Him to take on Human Nature.
The First Fulfillment is to have His Mind revealed as Flesh.
The Second Fulfillment is to have His Body revealed as Flesh.
The Third Fulfillment is to have His Will become revealed as Flesh.

Reflection on The Creator’s Mind Becoming Flesh
The Creator knew a plan to bring others to freely love.
The completeness of this knowledge becoming flesh occurred the moment the world began.
The instance the world began, The Creator’s Mind became relatively dependent on Free Willed Human Beings.
Therefore, Everything that happens in the world combined is Completeness of The Mind of The Creator, Hence the Word.

Reflection on the Word made Flesh (Why is there Evil, if God is Perfect Love and wants the Best for Each one of Us?)
The Best Method of Living Individually and as a Society is for each being to Freely Choose to Love others and the self.
When given a Society of Beings of Free-Willed, Ignorant, Fatigued, and Desiring Love, there is a Perfect State of Love, and a state of hate, and all states in between.
The Creator knows the Necessary Times and Means to Intervene and Redirect Humans to their Full Purpose.

Reflection on His Body becoming Man
Through the Power of The Creator’s Will, The Body of the Creator came down from Heaven and embraced a Human Nature.
Jesus is Fully God in that He is of the Exact Body and Essence of the Creator.
Jesus became a Distinct Person, begotten of the Creator.
Jesus embraced a Human Nature by becoming a free willed man through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is Fully Man in that His mind was of the Free Willed and Free Desiring Nature of Man.
Jesus has both Divine and Human Will and Interactions because His Will proceeded from His Mind and His Body.
Since Jesus’ Mind and Will achieved Atonement with the Essence of His Body(Perfect Love), He is seated at the right hand of the Father and has Fulfilled His Oneness in The Holy Trinity.

Reflection on His Will becoming Man
Since The Creator’s Will is of Absolute Freedom (The Inalienable Freedom of Choice and Desires), then His Will made Man is of Absolute Freedom.
The Will made Man is a Distinct Person (body, mind, will, and essence), who continues the course of action set by the Creator and Jesus.
The Will is Fully Man in that His body and mind is of the Free Willed and Free Desiring Nature of Man, therefore His Essence of Being must achieve Atonement with the Essence of The Creator (Hence, Son of Man).
When This Person achieves Atonement in the Mind, Body, Will, and Essence with the Essence (Love) of The Creator, He is and will be known as the Holy Spirit (Holy Essence) and will have His Oneness in the Holy Trinity.

Reflection on The Holy Trinity
The Holy Trinity is God.
The Essence of the Holy Trinity is Perfect Love.
The Holy Trinity is Three Persons of One Person, and One Person in Three Persons.
The Three Persons are The Creator, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
All Persons are Co-Existent, Equal, Co-Eternal, and of the Exact Same Essence and Purpose.

Reflection on What to Do Now
Recognize that You are of the Same Free Will as God.
Recognize that You are trying to proceed from the Father and the Son.
Recognize that You are desiring Perfect Love.
Recognize that You may be the Holy Spirit.
So Go and become One with God’s Essence!

Thank you very much for your time and consideration. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
 
Hi, I am Christian and I believe in Jesus as son of God, But I have several logical questions about Trirnity. I would ask the one by one.

First: How can more than one unlimited being exist?

I mean if God the father is unlimited, so there is no for another person to be unlimited.

Thank you.
Yes, and if they did disagree, fight, there would be no winner.
 
My friend, you said: “He knows everything perfectly even himself. So, that self knowledge was personified as Christ” so christ(the son) is not a person, he is just a «self knowledge».

On the other hand, does christ know himself perfectly? so we have 3th and 4th… persons.

And I ask you: If I know my self, I am one bein and two persons?

You said: “One is just the begetter and the other the begotten as really this hadn’t happened in time.” Is it possible: A god is begotten, and another person gave him his life?
(First this was stated by C.S. Lewis inside of Mere Christianity and is probably better explained there. Peter Kreeft has also used it and I personally haven’t found anything heretical in it.)

We call Christ the word of God. But words aren’t persons. Unless of course we say that this word or thought is this word or thought completely personiffied as a literal person that has resulted from this.

You have a great poiint in that Christ knows himself perfectly meaning there would be other sons. But this would be an exact copy of Christ. The only difference between Father and Son is who begot who (and that Christ became man). So, if Christ begot another Son He would be identical to christ and since He is not inside of time and space he would literally be Christ making him once again one Christ. This is like the electron (which has theorized to possibly be only a single electron that is bouncing back and forward through time which has made it appear to be many en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe) The only way we can tell the difference and what makes the electron different is the fact that it is in different places and at different times. If they were both in one spot they would be one. So, Christ and these other begottens would be occupying the same spot (everywhere) and be identical in all ways (they were begotten, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc.) meaning they would be only one in all ways.

I use the word begotten because that is why is found in the creed and is the best way to describe Christ and Him being there for all eternity but also coming from the father. This does not imply that God the Father was around before Christ nor that God the Father or Christ had a creator. It just means that Christ came from the Father.
 
Hi, I am Christian and I believe in Jesus as son of God, But I have several logical questions about Trirnity. I would ask the one by one.

First: How can more than one unlimited being exist?

I mean if God the father is unlimited, so there is no for another person to be unlimited.

Thank you.
There can be only one unlimited Being. God is one being.
The Persons of the Trinity are not three Beings, but three Persons. Each Person possesses wholly the one divine nature of God.

One Being, three persons.

Analogously, I am one human being, not two, although I have both a human nature and a human person.
 
“go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”

three persons, only three persons, co-equal, and One.
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
There can be only one unlimited Being. God is one being.
The Persons of the Trinity are not three Beings, but three Persons. Each Person possesses wholly the one divine nature of God.

One Being, three persons.
👍

Exactly, Frank Sheed explains this very well in his book Theology for Beginners. Javhid you should pick this up as it will answer your questions.
 
Hi, I am Christian and I believe in Jesus as son of God, But I have several logical questions about Trirnity. I would ask the one by one.

First: How can more than one unlimited being exist?

I mean if God the father is unlimited, so there is no for another person to be unlimited.

Thank you.
Great questions!👍

I agree. That is why I prefer Sabellius’s definition or a modalist definition of the godhead. However, anyone who prefers this explanation has been labelled a “heretic”.😃

Mark 12:29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

One in number. (echad)
 
Hi, I am Christian and I believe in Jesus as son of God, But I have several logical questions about Trirnity. I would ask the one by one.

First: How can more than one unlimited being exist?

I mean if God the father is unlimited, so there is no for another person to be unlimited.

Thank you.
Hallo, Javid,

I don’t know if your experience is similar to my own, but my experience was that I found it impossible to understand The Trinity and the Hypo-static union of Christ (100% God and 100% man) until I understood the difference between nature and person. Only after understanding that could I see that there’s no contradiction in saying God is one in three, because it’s not one nature in three natures, or three natures in one, or one person in three persons or three persons in one, but one single nature in three distinct persons.

Nature and Person
We ourselves have an instinctive understanding of the difference between nature and person (The what of a being and the who of a being) in the way we interact and speak about ourselves.

a) If an alien came to Earth and asked you, “What are you?” You’d answer him “I’m a human being”. Why? Because you would understand that he was asking “What type of being are you?” or “What is your nature?” He saw you and wondered, what kind of creature is this?
-We understand that human nature involves the union of a body like the one we all have and a rational soul. When I see it I know what type of a being that is (a man) because he has everything that involves being human.

b) But if the alien asked you “Who are you?”, you would never say “I’m a human being” but more likely you would say, “I am Joe Francis”, or “Will Smith” etc. Again Why? Because you’d understand that he was asking for an identity, a person.

c) Also, we tend to speak of our natures as things we possess, almost like property…My body, my soul…Who is this who takes complete and unapologetic ownership over the body and soul? Who is it in us who says "my body, my soul, with absolute right and entitlement? We seem to understand that we are not our bodies, nor our souls, but that they are ours. The body and soul together is the perfect human nature (what it means to be human) and it is yours, not you. Why? Because you, my friend are actually a person, who has a nature. They are not the same.

Now, there is such a deep union between the person and the nature, that it is not like the way you own your bag, or house or anything else. You could never own your bag in such a way that it could be said to be “one with you”, so much that whatever happens to the bag, it could be taken as having happened to you…Nonsense! That would be insane. The bag has its own existence separate from you, you wouldn’t even appreciate what it means to be a bag!

But the union of the person and his nature is just such a union that they are said to be one. It is such a deep perfect and permanent union, that you cannot speak of one without the other, which is why we often confuse them. What we see the nature of a human do, we ascribe to the person. It’s the person who acts in the nature. Because of this complete control, perfect possession of nature by the person as well its perfect union with them…

For example, if someone slapped you, they would not be able to say to you “Oh I’m sorry, it wasn’t me, it was my hand”. Nor do we say, “My body walked to Church today”, or “My mouth ate today” but* I *walked, I ate etc. We understand that whatever the body does, it is the person who does them.

The Nature of God
What is God’s nature? What type of being is he? What kind of existence does he have? God identified himself to Moses as “YHWH” which is “I am who AM” or “I am he who IS” or “I am that I AM”. This is the verb “to be” which is to exist. Now, you exist, I exist, as does everything we see all around us, so why would God chose the fact of his own existence…to be…as the way to identify himself, to set himself apart from all others? Because it is God’s own nature to exist, fully, always, perpetually, without limits. We ourselves have a particular way of existing, which is to be human, the animals have different ones, the plants, even the angels have distinctive ways of existing, given by God the Creator. A creature is one who exists in a limited way, these limits give us the different kinds of natures. I cannot exist as a flower, cat, or angel, I’m limited to the human being, neither can an angel be a human or a flower. These are limits…God’s nature is that existence that has ''no particulars" or no limits. While a flower is beautiful or has beauty, God our creator is not just beautiful or good or powerful, but the fullness of beauty itself (what it means to be beautiful), that is, ultimate beauty, beauty without limit (in-finiteness) He is ultimate goodness, ultimate power etc

He gives existence to everything else because it belongs to him by nature to exist, and his existence is one without limit. Now the ultimate being cannot be more than one or it would not be ultimate. If they are two, each one will be limited by not being what the other is, so neither would be ultimate, neither would be God. So if we asked to describe God’s nature or the Divine being we would say One, eternal, infinite, all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing- all-present etc. Basically, for all forms of existence, every way of existing, he is the fullness of it, each quality, each kind of goodness- without limit.

I’ll attempt to post about the persons of The Trinity in the next post.

TO BE CONTINUED
 
CONTINUED

Three Persons
The way it was explained to me was by analogy: We say we’re created in God’s image because we possess a likeness to him. In what way? Adam is made in God’s image, but not the animals. To answer this we must see that there is a way in which we resemble God but the animals don’t how? It can’t be the body, because they have also excellent material beings, so how? In intelligence and volition. We have reason and free will, so we know we are God’s image in that we can 'know" and “chose/love”. (Love is choosing or preferring one good to another, it comes from freedom of the will). Therefore we can have both love and relationship.

We know that God is the fullness of existence therefore, he must have infinite intelligence (God knows all) and absolute freedom (The will of God). We know that God must know things perfectly and not the way we know them, and he must love perfectly and not the way we do.

How does God know things? Again, we have to use analogy.
a) When I think of my friend who I don’t see right now, a picture comes to my head of her. This picture in my head is an idea and an imperfect representation of my friend to my mind. It doesn’t fully represent to my mind all that my friend really is.
b) Also, I can think of marvelous things, like fantastic creatures of a movie I may want to create, or a book. These are ideas in my mind, both my “knowledge” of my friend and my ideas about fantasy creatures, but I cannot give being to my ideas- I cannot give them an existence of their own, as real as the one I myself enjoy. They remain ideas in my mind which I cannot manifest into the real world of existence.

But when God “knows” anything, such as my friend, it’s not an imperfect image that he sees, but all that she is-perfectly. Not only this, God also knows all the infinite possibilities of existence, everything that can possibly exist- what exists actually (in reality) and what exists potentially only as “ideas”. But he can give being to his ideas. He can make it all exist if he wants, and to some he chooses to bring to existence, he gives them being- like us and our universe.

But you see, this knowledge by God of things is knowledge of things that are not God. It’s the operation of the Divine intellect on things that are not God, to some creating, giving being to these things that are less than God therefore not God.

But how does God know himself?
When I ask myself- Who am I? I force my mind to turn inward, but no matter how hard I look, I cannot fully grasp myself. Indeed, psychology tells us that we have a well hidden ugly side that we don’t know. But God must be fully aware of himself, because God knows all.

When God “looks” at himself or knows himself, he again sees himself perfectly- that is ALL THAT HE IS. Since this “idea” of who God is, must be true, it must fully be all that God is, it must be fully God, and fully a person, or else God would not see/know perfectly what and all he is and would therefore not know himself perfectly. This is the movement of God’s intellect, just like with the creatures, but it’s a divine operation of the Divine intellect on the divine being himself. It never moves beyond or outside God himself, and so it cannot result in a new being, a separate one from the one who “knows”- this would be two Gods. This Divine idea remains “in God” and this idea/knowledge of who God is to himself, Christians call “The Divine word (meaning a type of idea)”- God the Son, or God the Word/Image of God.

The movement of God’s will to himself is God the Holy Spirit. That is God looks at the word and knows himself perfectly as he is, and he knows his own goodness, and he loves himself. This is not egotism, God is the fullness of goodness, and he knows the truth that he himself is the ultimate good and is alone deserving of his ultimate love, so he loves himself (movement of the will) perfectly, or rather, he loves the Word, or the Son who is so good. This love is self-gift, it must be equal to the one loving (because it his giving of himself) and the one loved. This self-gift (The Holy Spirit), the son receives and he also returns the gift of love to the father who is so good and deserving of divine love. So the Son loves the father with the love with which the father loves him, eternally, each loving, and receiving love, and the love itself is God.

Now, God has always been God, therefore, these divine processions (the movements that originate son and holy spirit) are eternal and are not to be regarded as having happened at some point, They did not happen once and then God knew or loved himself- he has always known himself, always loved himself, is always knowing and loving himself eternally- Therefore these movements are eternal processions- God eternally “knows” and “loves” himself-.

People often refer to God the Son as the Wisdom of God, because God knows himself fully in the word and this is wisdom, and The Holy Spirit as Divine Love.

Now remembering the discussion on person and nature and how fully a person possesses and is one with his nature, we can see that these three divine persons, by virtue of being persons are distinct, and there relations discussed above distinguish them to each other/from each other- But since they each fully possess fully as it’s absolute person-hood, they could never be more than one single being, never more than a single instance of existence, never three beings, never like you and I are two separate human beings- Never. Because that which is each one’s “own” fully is the exact same that is the other’s own fully.We say they are distinct not separate, we say they are in each other fully. One single being in three distinct persons, One Triune God
 
Jesus- God and Man
The 2nd person (God the Son, or the Divine word) took on a human nature, not a human person-hood as I explained it. Jesus is the divine Word, A distinct Person still possessing the entire divine nature from eternity (therefore always fully God), but also possessing a complete human nature like you and I have, (body and soul), as his own, therefor fully human. One person, acting in two natures, each as his very own. Each person (except christ) has a single nature in which he acts, a single instance of being. Each being (except God) is possessed by a single person.-This refers only to intelligent beings not animals. When Christ died, his soul and body separated but remained possessed by the Divine person like a man holding two halves of one broken bread in each hand and at the resurrection, it was the same Divine person that reunited the two.

That’s how I understood the Blessed Trinity and the Hypo-static union of Christ. I hope you can follow it without it confusing you too much. I hope it helps.

Peace.
 
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Peter said… Matthew said… And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
 
Peter said… Matthew said… And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 28:19
The other three gospels do not say this. And Acts says to baptize in the name of Jesus.
The early church, to be fair, accepted both baptisms as valid. If you want to know what Pope allowed both baptisms I will look it up for you but I don’t know off the top of my head.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top