Questions about Trinity

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I said each person of the Trinity has freewill, and while theoretically their personal wills might separate, they do not disagree substantially because of the “catastrophic consequences of such a disintegration, as well as the overwhelming goodness of their systematic unity.”
The Trinity is a single spirit, one being, how could it possibly have three independent wills and even worse, how could it ever, ever separate (however theoretical the idea)? You’re describing three gods here, not the Blessed Trinity.

Matter is made of parts, that’s why it disintegrates into the constituent parts and even dies/ceases to be in its original form-. But Spirit is an irreducible singular whole, impossible to disintegrate in any way whatsover- that’s why it cannot die. How could the purest spirit, one and irreducible (God) ever, ever separate? In what constituent parts would it disintegrate/separate into? Impossible! you seem to think that the Trinity just stays together by choice but doesn’t have to- Again, Impossible! There’s no possibility of any separation between the persons of the Blessed Trinity, because they are one simple irreducible Spirit.

Besides, the Divine Son/Word is exactly what the father is. When the Father looks at this Divine “idea”, God the Word/Son which is all he himself is, there’s absolutely nothing that he sees that is not what he himself is-How could the son have a different Will? The moment the Son ever wills what the father does not he, the Son, ceases to be who he is- The perfect image of God the father- Again, Impossible. The Holy Spirit himself originates in this one will of the father in which the Son fully participates- He’s God’s movement of his will/or the father’s perfect self-gift to the Son- How could he have a separate will of his own?- Impossible.
This definition is refreshing because the Trinity is discussed in terms unencumbered by specifically Christian dogma.
Considering that The Blessed Trinity is itself a specifically Christian dogma, I would not call this refreshing in the least.
 
@Samuel

I would also add that your idea of the three persons of God having three separate wills and theoretically being able to separate would involve such considerations:

Could God the Father ever cease to know himself perfectly as he is? This is what you’re saying could theoretically happen. Could God ever cease to love his own divine being perfectly as belongs to God to be loved as the greatest good? This is what you’re saying could theoretically happen. Could God the Son and God the Holy Spirit ever cease to be who they are, which is the divine perfect Self-Knowledge of God and the Divine perfect self-love of God respectively? Again, this is what you’re saying could theoretically happen. And if they each separated and each had a divine nature, we would have “three ultimate limitless beings”- Impossible- There can only be one ultimate being or none of them are ultimate and none are limitless (because each is limited by not being what the other two are) meaning none of them would be God- Again impossible.

The incarnation of God could happen only once, and Christianity claims this once happened approximately 2,000 years ago in a creature know as the Blessed Virgin Mary. Incarnation is God’s self-revelation to the creatures receiving it (humanity)- It is therefore perfect, leaving nothing unsaid- once and only once is all it takes and all that is possible- We call this incarnation Jesus Christ and him alone, not Mohammed, Ghandi or any other human being that ever set foot on this Earth.
 
@samuel

Please pardon the multiple postings, I keep forgetting to put down all my points.

The two Divine processions, the origins of God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, represent the only distinctions in God. Aside from these, there’s no other distinction and God is the same. This is to say, God is one and the same and only different as regards the two processions and nothing else, that God is only one thing alone* apart* from distinctions arising from the two processions- Adding another distinction apart from the two (such as your idea of distinctions in wills) would strike us as a serious Heresy.

The Father is different from the Son and the Holy Spirit only in so far as he is not begotten, nor proceeding, The Son and the Holy spirit are different from each other *only *in so far as one is begotten from the Father and the other proceeds from him (the Father) first as principle, and then through the Son who loves God the Father with the same Divine perfect Love with which the Father loves him first. Aside from these distinctions (the one who is Principle, the one who is begotten, the one who proceeds) every thing else in the Divine being, including the Divine will is only one.
 
You are right, Muhammad and Gandhi, “never claimed to be in perfect union with God,” as Jesus was so readily able to do, but that may be only because they belong to and represent those persons of the Trinity Absolute that have character roles distinct from Jesus and each other, even if they are inseparable in their Holy Trinity.
You’re suggesting that God incarnated, but was oblivious to this fact. That Mohammed and Gandhi were both God who did not know they were God- This is just strange if not down right absurd.

The OP is obviously a Christian, and I’m sure she was looking for a Christian understanding of the Christian belief in the Trinity. Again, what you’re suggesting here is heresy and represents a different religion, perhaps Hinduism? I don’t know, but it is certainly not the Christian Trinity- It’s not fair to confuse her this way with admittedly (by you) non- Christian concepts of God as she was looking for clarification and better understanding of the Christian belief/dogma. I hope this does not come off as attacking you, but this speculative ideas of God that contradict Christian belief would best be discussed on a different thread.

Peace!
 
Lisa,

With regard to your recent posting (#22), could you perhaps baptize in the name of the Spirit, in recognition that the spirit is the way to the Son, (if perhaps not the only way), and according to scriptures (John 14:6) the Son is the only way to the Father?

I argue that the Supreme Being will probably be Jesus reincarnated in his return to earth as Christ, heading a supreme gestalt of the consciousness of all humankind. You and I are both big fans of Jesus, that’s for sure.

Indeed all authority has been given to him, but ask yourself, who freely gave him this authority, if not the Father; and who gladly surrenders authority to him, if not the Spirit? I’m only suggesting you look upon the persons of the Trinity as equals. Similarly, we should respect all major religions, which we are entitled by all the laws of analogy, to assume reflect God in different respects, if you can get past the contradictions, and see their consensus.

With regard to your posting (#28), don’t worry, my wife and friends don’t understand me either. With regard to your second question, please click on the “About the Author” button at the top of my website www.trinityabsolute.com.

Lisa don’t give up on the Trinity. I suggest you click on the Preview pdf-download feature, and print it out if you have to, but read it through (only 19 pages) as quickly as you can without thinking about it too much at first. As the meaning and significance sinks in, the whole broad picture should snap into focus, and as I say at the beginning of the website, “You’ll kick yourself for not having seen it sooner.”

With regard to your posting (#29), I understand that it is Catholic doctrine that the persons of the Trinity are unified in spirit, universal in reason (mind), but threefold in personality. As the Chinese would say: “Same, same, but different.” This reminds me of Plato, who called the Trinity: same (one), other (many), and essence (all).

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.trinityabsolute.com
Samuel,
  1. It wouldn’t make any sense to baptize in the name of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God. If I am in a courtroom I have to swear on my name. I cannot swear on my spirit. So too we baptize in the name of God.
    “Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed by they NAME…”
  2. You tell me I should respect all major religions insofar as they reflect God in different aspects.
    Contrare mon fraire. What is from the devil reflects the devil, what is from God reflects God. Jesus said the devil is the ruler of this world.
    Insofar as a religion teaches the opposite of what Jesus teaches, then I am against it, not for it. It would make no sense for me to say I am a follower of Jesus and then say I believe the opposite of what Jesus taught. For instance, if I were to say I am against divorce and say that I am also for divorce.
  3. I prefer to stick to scripture and scripture does not anywhere state that God is threefold in personality. In fact, the bible reiterates that God is one. ONE personality. Not three.
Mark 12:29
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.
Romans 3:30
Since there is only one God
1 Corninthians 8:4
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Ephesians 4:6
**one God **and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.
Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.
Deuteronomy 4:39
Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.
Deuteronomy 5:6
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
2 Chronicles 17:9
They taught throughout Judah, taking with them the Book of the Law of the LORD; they went around to all the towns of Judah and taught the people.
Nehemiah 9:6
You alone are the LORD
Psalm 86:10
For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God.
Zecharia 14:9
The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.
 
  1. I prefer to stick to scripture and scripture does not anywhere state that God is threefold in personality. In fact, the bible reiterates that God is one. ONE personality. Not three.
Hallo Lisa,

I’m not sure if “personality” means the same thing as “person”- But the Doctrine that God is one God in three persons is both universal and fundamental in Christianity, so much so that it is used to classify the Jehovah’s witnesses (who deny the existence of three persons in one God) and the Mormons (Who deny the unity/oneness of God- Basically believe in three separate gods) as non-Christians for this fact alone. The Catholic Church, for example, will not re-baptize any Christians coming to the church from other churches, because she recognizes their baptisms as valid Christian baptisms- But the JW’s and the Mormons must be baptized as non-Christian converts to Christianity.
 
Samuel,
  1. It wouldn’t make any sense to baptize in the name of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God. If I am in a courtroom I have to swear on my name. I cannot swear on my spirit. So too we baptize in the name of God.
    “Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed by they NAME…”
  2. You tell me I should respect all major religions insofar as they reflect God in different aspects.
    Contrare mon fraire. What is from the devil reflects the devil, what is from God reflects God. Jesus said the devil is the ruler of this world.
    Insofar as a religion teaches the opposite of what Jesus teaches, then I am against it, not for it. It would make no sense for me to say I am a follower of Jesus and then say I believe the opposite of what Jesus taught. For instance, if I were to say I am against divorce and say that I am also for divorce.
  3. I prefer to stick to scripture and scripture does not anywhere state that God is threefold in personality. In fact, the bible reiterates that God is one. ONE personality. Not three.
Lisa,

What I was asking: Is it OK to baptize in the name of the Spirit, Son, and Father; or does it have to be the other way around? How about a little “perichoresis” here. Are you going to listen to other religions when they say the same thing in a different order or way: or are you going to shut others out, and insist on only one way of talking about God.

Don’t you expect Jesus crucifixion so focussed the Father’s attention on our planet, that he has already approved Jesus’ plan to reincarnate again - Supreme Son - perhaps born by some future incarnation of Mary-glorified. (You don’t believe he is coming back on a cloud, now do you?)

Jesus entitles us to expect that there is much good in store for us, so don’t worry too much about the devil. Have faith that Jesus’ angelic counterpart Michael has personally assumed responsibility for earth, and is shaking up the management - Satan as he was, is on the way out.

You have a point about the difficulty of composing some religious differences, but here is a place to start. I challenge you to give me a religious difference which cannot be at least sufficiently reconciled to get the sting out, showing how evil can be overcome with good.

See my reply to Heuchler for the dialectic of thesis, and antithesis, harmonized in synthesis. Both sides of the greatest contradictions may be true, and truly composed in their “third coordinate.”

Mary is right. Catholic Doctrine: One God in three persons or personalities - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.trinityabsolute.com
 
What I was asking: Is it OK to baptize in the name of the Spirit, Son, and Father; or does it have to be the other way around? How about a little “perichoresis” here. Are you going to listen to other religions when they say the same thing in a different order or way: or are you going to shut others out, and insist on only one way of talking about God.
Don’t you expect Jesus crucifixion so focussed the Father’s attention on our planet, that he has already approved Jesus’ plan to reincarnate again - Supreme Son - perhaps born by some future incarnation of Mary-glorified. (You don’t believe he is coming back on a cloud, now do you?)
Jesus entitles us to expect that there is much good in store for us, so don’t worry too much about the devil. Have faith that Jesus’ angelic counterpart Michael has personally assumed responsibility for earth, and is shaking up the management - Satan as he was, is on the way out.
You have a point about the difficulty of composing some religious differences, but here is a place to start. I challenge you to give me a religious difference which cannot be at least sufficiently reconciled to get the sting out, showing how evil can be overcome with good.
See my reply to Heuchler for the dialectic of thesis, and antithesis, harmonized in synthesis. Both sides of the greatest contradictions may be true, and truly composed in their “third coordinate.”
Mary is right. Catholic Doctrine: One God in three persons or personalities - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Hi Samuel:)

I had to look up the word as I don’t know what it means:

Perichoresis: as defined by wikipedia is: "the mutual inter-penetration and indwelling within the threefold nature of the Trinity, God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Although clear references to full-blown Trinitarian theology in the New Testament are rare, it can be seen between two persons of the Trinity in passages such as the following from John’s Gospel:“the Father is in the Son, and the Son in the Father.”[1]

The relationship of the Triune God is intensified by the relationship of perichoresis. This indwelling expresses and realizes fellowship between the Father and the Son. It is intimacy. Jesus compares the oneness of this indwelling to the oneness of the fellowship of his church from this indwelling. “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us (John 17:21).”

The theological tradition has viewed the indwelling as fellowship. John of Damascus, who was influential in developing the doctrine of the perichoresis, described it as a “cleaving together.” Such is the fellowship in the Godhead that the Father and the Son not only embrace each other, but they also enter into each other, permeate each other, and dwell in each other. One in being, they are also always one in the intimacy of their friendship."

Let me first say, that I am favorable to a modalist or Sabellian interpretation of how the godhead functions. This is a “heresy” so I don’t usually advertise my sympathy with this idea. However, I believe it makes more sense than the trinity.

The problem with perichoresis, in my mind, is that you cannot cleave together that which is one. What is one cannot be divided and therefore what cannot be divided cannot be put together.

And that is the problem I have with the trinity is it seperates the Son from the Father, in order to reunite them in whatever fashion they like, lets call it perichoresis, when in fact, they never were apart in the first place.

Let me ask you, why would you want to reconcile the truth with a lie?
If you mix black with white you will have grey which is neither black or white but something altogether different.
Lets take the truth Jesus is God. How can that be reconciled with the (I won’t call it a lie but that is what I think it is) idea Jesus is not God.

How can you reconcile opposites? Only by creating something that is neither true to the first statement nor true to its opposite, but a third truth that has no similarity to either of them.

For instance, we could say Jesus is a god-man. Thereby thinking we have satisfied those who believe Jesus is God, and those who think that Jesus is not God. But what is a god-man?
Now you have something that is neither a god, nor a man, but a third thing.
 
Mary,

Welcome. You say “No, not three Gods… They can never separate.” The Quran says if they can, they will. But as I’ve pointed out, separation is only theoretically possible, in the worst case. In practice, freewill doesn’t extend that far, because it can’t. For one thing, it would be immoral for the intimate partners of the Trinity to “take their portions of the kingdom and try to walk away with them.” Nevertheless, this is my recollection of how the Quran puts it, condemning the metaphysics of Trinity altogether.

I argue that the Trinity is one single, irreducible, inseparable spirit, and universal mind, but three in personality.

Do you not believe that humans are made in the image of God, and that a spark of the spirit of God dwells in you, along with a some capacity to access universal reason (through your human mind or brain), together with your personality?

If you agree, then I ask you, where is the seat of the will? I suggest that your spirit or conscience may influence your freewill, and pure practical reason usually determines the will, but your personality is the executive of the soul. You make personally-chosen freewill decisions all the time. These free choices are characteristic of your personality. As we get to know you, we can predict how you will choose, but your personality sometimes surprises us, a lot more than your spirit or mind; because it sometimes exercises freewill to make unexpected new statements expressing personal character and taste.

The spirit of the Son is the spirit of Father, and they may be saying basically the same things (the word), but they are different persons expressing themselves in their own characteristic ways, which are highly conditioned by their roles in the threefold partnership of the Trinity.

Likewise, the “person” of their glorified Spirit may be the spirit of both Father and Son, but the spirit of both is not the personality of both. The Holy Spirit is a third person with his own distinctive personality, which is related to and coloured by his coordinate role in the threefold creation - heaven, earth, and all that is.

All three are eternally in agreement in the main business of the Trinity. Nevertheless, the three exhibit subtle differences of freewill personality, consistent with their roles in that Trinity, which they animate in those divine dances of “perichoresis,” that dazzled the vision of the great Catholic theologians St. Augustine and St. Aquinas.

The Son is not a carbon-copy or slave of the Father. If the Son does not have freewill, then no one has. By analogy, the Spirit also is a person and has a personality of freewill dignity. In some ways he would seem to be the most versatile member of the Trinity, but we can only think of the angelic Holy Host, when we try to think of him. At least, I don’t think I am alone in having trouble seeing the Spirit of All That Is, as one person of the Trinity of One God. Nevertheless, I might be able to get my mind around it, if symmetry of concept requires this coherence, in the conjectured systematic unity of the threefold creation.

Don’t be offended when I say that your concept of the Father (Abba) reminds me a bit of the Muslim idea that the Deity Absolute (Allah) is almighty sole sovereign, and all other concious entities are far subordinate. To me, that’s too exclusive.

Come on Mary, at least you find these thoughts challenging and provocative, if not refreshing. Ok, Ok, the members of the Trinity are inseparable. I’m only pointing out that separation is the big rationale the Quran gives in condemning the whole idea of Trinity. As I indicated then, the persons of the Trinity only have freewill within the limits of their necessary triune partnership.

I agree with you - separation is impossible - and even with freewill God cannot make square circles. Therefore, the whole Quranic argument falls apart. One more difference of religious doctrine argued out of the picture, never to be feared again.

You say, “There can be only one ultimate being.” But I am saying the Trinity is not the absolute being (Father), nor his supreme being (Son), nor even their utimate being (Spirit). The Trinity is these three persons eternally and immutably united in One God.

You say, “The incarnation of God could happen only once…” But what about the incarnation of Christ appearing as the Supreme Being, at the end of this age (which may be soon at this rate)? Perhaps this will be Jesus returning at the head of a gestalt of the consciouness of all humankind. After all, his mission, announced by the Host of angels at his birth, is unfinished until we have “peace on earth, and goodwill towards all mankind.”

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.trinityabsolute.com
 
Mary,

I am merely suggesting that there may be at least 3 candidates for the incarnation of the Pre-supreme Being in human history. Muslims, Hindus, and others have their own heros, but you and I (Christians) are told that Jesus has already been declared sovereign. All power has been vested in him by the generous sharing of the Father, and surrendered to him in the worshipful submission of the Spirit.

I am mentioning the heros of Islam and Hinduism, because their belivers are not quite on the same page with us yet. But they will be, for example, when Muslims start to recognize that they naturally focus on the transcendent Deity Absolute, just as Christians sometimes obssess about the immanent Supreme Being, and Hindus adore the ultimate Unconditioned Absolute or All That Is.

You might say if there is a psychological dimension to religions as suggested, then there are probably a lot of persons in the wrong religion for them, by accident of birth. Yes, and this accounts for the majority of people who either go through the motions, but don’t really participate in the religion into which they were born, or they switch religions, or a lot of them just give up on religion altogether.

By the way, did you know that the Muslim Quran says you don’t actually have freewill, and that everything is predetermined, but the explanation is too complicated for humans to understand. Nevertheless, this is the great antinomy of freewill versus determination, where both sides may be true, and yet not violate the Laws of Contradiction, when taken in different respects. This has been sufficiently demonstrated by Immanuel Kant, and extended into the science of dialectics (thesis/antithesis/synthesis), by Georg Hegel. Freewill and determination are resolved in morality, which on the one hand is always a supreme freewill choice involving a judgement of utility, and yet on the other hand, is absolutely determined by the one categorical imperative - the Golden Rule.

A friend of mine insists mistaken views from the Quran can never be reconciled with Christianity and Hinduism, etc., but I argue they can and must be overcome, or somehow defused, if ever there is to be religious peace on earth. Let’s not wait for Jesus to come back and solve our problems.

Don’t say peace on earth is impossible, because you know very well anything is possible with God. Indeed, I’ve shown in my book how this all works together, and fits so well with the Catholic view, that it is technically, not heresy. This is true, even though such attractive hypotheses as the resemblance between the Trinity, world religions, and the psychology of the human soul, are admittedly speculations, without a whole lot of authority to back them up (except for the extended discussions in my book).

I suspect you might like it if I said something nice about Mary mother of God. She gets downplayed a bit because the Quran specifially condemns “only” the old carnal Egyptian Trinity of Father, Mother, Son. This is not the Christian Trinity of Father, Son, Spirit, and there should be no dispute or misunderstanding between Muslims and Christians over the Chistian Trinity - that’s not what Allah condemned. I’m sure you can see what a sensitive topic this is.

Nevertheless, we can say Mary is mother of Jesus Christ our Lord and Supreme Being. And Jesus, if not the only way, is probably the most loving way of approach to the Deity Absolute Father Creator in heaven, and his mother Mary was his way to us on earth. Through the grace of Mary we are saved.

If you are going to emphasize that Jesus is the “only” way, then I am going to suggest that God is black, white, and brown. If you insist on only one colour, then I will bring up the subject of racism. But that long fight was decisively decided in the 19th and 20th centuries, when America set a new colour-blind moral standard for the relations between races.

Now, in the 21st century, religious racism has become the scourge of the earth. Please don’t fuel that fire. Remember, the master once said, “Those who are not against us are for us.” This open approach makes us better Christians. Furthermore, universal morality requires religious as well as racial integration, it’s as simple as that. This doesn’t mean there will be no more Catholics, any more than it means there will be no more white race.

Mary, when I saw your outburst of 4 consecutive emails, I thought you must have taken my advice and looked at trinityabsolute.com. However, it takes a bit of time to absorb and sink in, and I worried that I might have given you mental indigestion. Then I thought no, you have not read the whole Preview (first 19 pages of the book), which is why some of your criticisms seem to me to be a bit over-the-top. On the other hand, I understand that new concepts have to be explained to all of us repeatedly, before we start to open up to them.

So don’t worry, I don’t think either you or Lisa are attacking me. In fact, I relish the intellectual emotion you bring to this Trinity forum. I’m like my father. He liked it best, when everybody said it could not be done. After he did it, there was always a letdown, but I loved his attitude.

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.trinityabsolute.com
 
(I know it’s bad wording but its hard to convey this without going into heresy.)

Heuchler,

I couldn’t agree with you more. Pinning down the Trinity is like picking your way through a minefield. If you over-emphasize One God, you are in danger of religious racism; and if you articulate the three persons of the Trinity too distinctively, you get called a Sabellian modalist heretic.

Christ (the Supreme Being) knows the Father (Deity Absolute) personally. They, along with their glorified Spirit, are what we might call, for the sake of analogy, the executive committee that is the Trinity Absolute.

From the fact that the members of this committee are absolute metaphysical coordinates defining the creation, and the fact that they could never possibly disagree rationally about basic moral values; we can be assured that the creation won’t fall apart. Because their shared interest in the creation (heaven, earth, and all that is) binds the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together, they are all co-creators of co-equal freewill personality and fellowship dignity.

The interaction of the less serious characteristics of these three characters of the Trinity was thought by Augustine and Aquinas to be like a procession or perichoresis - like a merry-go-round or dance of loving interpenetration, in which they become perfectly unified, while remaining three more-or-less distinct persons. Less distinct when we try to envision them, but more distinct to each other when they enjoy fellowship together.

I recognize that each religion makes absolute truth claims, but I maintain there are three absolutes of creation united in the Trinity. The psychology of each world religion reflects one of these absolutes (or their combinations and permutations). My book demonstrates this in more detail, but for example:

Moslems (and Jews) are focussed on the first person - the Deity Absolute Primogenitor - in all his austere existential majesty, and they deny he has any Sons or Associates. However, Muslims acknowledge that Muhammad has a special relationship with Allah, and there are certain Archangels (e.g. Michael and Gabriel) who are, if not associates, then ambassadors of the Absolute.

Christians and some Hindus worship the existential Absolute Father through the experiential Universe Absolute Supreme Son - the material incarnation of God, whom I argue will return immanently, in some sort of gestalt of the consciousness of all humans - Christ eventually returning to earth as the Supreme Being of all humankind - Jesus glorified.

Some Hindus and Buddhists are enthralled by the vision of the first person (source) and second person (universe synthesis), consummated in a Synthesis of source and synthesis - the third person - the ultimate existential/experiential Unconditioned Absolute Spirit of All That Is, was, and will be.

Zen Buddhists seem to be looking for a merging of their consciousness with All That Is - which in their terms is sometimes called the “emptiness” of Nirvana. My own personal predilection is for Christ, but I ask myself, what is the difference between my preference for “participating” in the Supreme, and Zen “merging” with the Ultimate, or for that matter, the Moslem and Jewish preference for “communing” with the Deity Absolute alone.

By the way, I’m not just making this up. There is a whole chapter on the Spirit of All That Is at the end of my book, paraphrasing in their own words, the Seth Books by Jane Roberts and her husband Robert Butts. Briefly, materialists believe that reality creates consciousness, but Seth shows that it is also the other way around - consciousness creates reality. This would be just another example of the synthesis of thesis and antithesis, except that when you see past the “contradiction” or “difference” between reality and consciousness, you see that they may well be compatible in a consummation that closes the circle of creation - the Trinity.

I am not claiming a single, unified God from all these religions, but I am suggesting a freewill union of world religions reflecting the Trinity of One multi-dimensional God. This only seems to be a contradiction, but like the persons of the Trinity, world religions are ultimately compatible, differing only in respect to their relationship in the Trinity of One God. Again, the key is the truth of both sides of great antinomies, and this is fully discussed and authoritatively documented throughout my book, which has substantial passages quoting and explaining the metaphysics of Plato, Plotinus, Locke, Hume, Kant, Hegel, and many other great philosophers. Again, the basic idea is that the absolute contradiction between thesis and antithesis may be resolved in synthesis. In terms of world religions this synthesis is not the spirit of the one, nor the spirit of the other, but a third absolute - the Spirit of Synthesis - the Consummator.

You might object that absolute religious differences can never be “absolutely” resolved. Then I would argue that they can at least be “sufficiently” overcome by consummation and inclusion in the Trinity Absolute. My book is a constructive interpretation, not just of religions, but of the metaphysics of everything. Trinity is the one philosophical inevitability, because it is the only adequate metaphysical vehicle of creation and of the psychology of the threefold human soul.

What do you think of my claim that Trinity is the basis of metaphysics? (see p.5 of the Preview)

Do you have anything to say about Immanuel Kant’s definitions of God, Trinity, and Soul? (see p.11 of Preview)

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.trinityabsolute.com
 
@Samuel,

I’ll be very honest with you, I haven’t read your book. But I have read your posts here, and I believe they alone clearly demonstrate concepts of the Blessed Trinity that are irreconcilable with christian truths, which is what prompted my response. I don’t know why you call my 4 posts an outburst- I apologized for the multiple postings and explained that I kept remembering points that I had meant to include but had actually forgotten to include in the posts until after I had posted them.

I understand that you’re trying to reach out to others- that’s obviously excellent. I think it’s dishonest to do it by way of altering truths, though. And I don’t think Muslims would like it if they heard you saying that Mohammed was an incarnation of Allah. Acknowledging what truths are already present in other faiths, and crediting that to God, is valid. Acknowledging that God is not limited to the activity of the Church/Christians in reaching out to all his people, is valid. Bastardizing Christian faith, however, is most certainly not valid, including:
  • It’s most sacred belief about God’s nature
  • The meaning, purpose and uniqueness of the incarnation of God in Mary’s womb.
  • The unique place and absolute necessity of Jesus Christ in all humanity’s reconciliation with God and each man’s personal salvation.
If you’re suggesting that Christians ought to give up these most fundamental and sacred truths for “peace” (Properly put in quotes there, because such a peace would be false), then I’d point to our most holy martyrs who preferred being lunch to the lions and burnt sacrifices to Zeus, to the kind of peace you’re talking about. True peace means mutual respect of differences and acknowledging common beliefs where they are genuinely present- In other words, truth in dialogue is the only way to achieve genuine peace. If you think peace means creating a false super-religion that includes every belief under the sun, (or at-least those that enjoy many followers) which essentially means the destruction of all unique faiths- I call it false ecumenism. You think we have to be the same to have peace, We say we just have to accept and respect our differences to have peace.

And about three candidates for incarnation? No way, not according to Christianity. This is Hinduism, I know there are many Hindus who accept Christ as one incarnation among many. But to us- no chance whatever. God may still use Mohammed or Gandhi or whoever to teach people certain things- Telling me that Mohammed and Gandhi deserve my worship (because this is exactly the implication of believing they are incarnations of God) is something else and utterly false.

Christianity holds that our centre of unity, Adam, lost certain things for us- God, wanting to use this evil state of affairs to do even more good to us than would have happened had Adam not sinned, became Adam’s proper descendant (incarnation) and stepped right into Adam’s place as “center” of the race, thereby being uniquely able as God-Man to gain the Divine life for humanity and as “Adam” to give this inestimable gift to the entire human race, now joined to him as center. There’s no taking away from his uniqueness (incarnation) or absolute necessity whatever. There just isn’t. So, sorry, my friend- Jesus Christ is the only way.

Peace!
 
Mary,

You suggest that ecumenism might be a false religion. Does that mean you are disillusioned with the Catholic ecumenical movement, or is that too mild a word for it?

Starting at the second paragraph of your last posting: I didn’t say Muhammad was an incarnation of Allah. What I meant was that in relation to the Trinity Absolute, Muhammad represents the austerity of the Deity Absolute, just as Jesus is a world representation of the love of the Supreme Son, and Gandhi might be regarded as representative of the Unconditioned Spirit of All That Is.

Apparently, Muhammad saw himself as an ambassador and prophet of God the Deity Absolute. In the Quran, he humbly claimed to be nothing more than the mouthpiece of Allah.

Jesus called himself the son-of-man, and refused to allow his followers to proclaim openly that he is the Son of God. Although, he as much as said so to Peter, and admitted at his trial.

I believe in the thoughts contained in your bullets, and I’m not giving them up. You won’t lose Catholics by reaching out to other religions. In fact, if you do it in the generous spirit of religious pluralism, and get your ecumenism right; you might bring back some believers who have left the faith recently, and gain others who would not otherwise join.

Yes, let’s talk about what religions have in common, outweighing differences with similarities, overcoming the evil with the good. Consider common beliefs of Islam and Christianity: God the Creator and Benefactor (an omnipotent, omniscient, eternal person, etc.), an indwelling spirit of God in all humans, resurrection to an afterlife, Judgement Day for all human souls, heaven or hell, angels, etc. Throw in an analogous Trimurti in Hinduism, karma, and the Nirvana of Buddhism, the Tao of Taoism, etc. See how they all fit psychologically, in a reflection of the nature of Trinity Absolute.

You say “false super-religion,” No, I’m not suggesting a single religion, but a superb union of the good in all religions. Let’s take Jesus words in their broadest sense, for example where he says, “It is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.” (Mat. 18:14).

The seven religious icons at the top of my webpage are not the banner of a new religion, but of the truth in all the old religions. Christians should not fear the analogy to Trinity Absolute, because the cross is the central icon of that world-view. Muslims might accept it, beause at least the crescent moon and star is the first icon, and Hindus cannot fail to respond to the three-faced Brahma on the right.

My view of conflict resolution through the philosophy of dialectics (which alone provides a metaphysical concept of Trinity) is both logical and practical. It doesn’t mean “the destruction of all unique faiths,” which may actually be more healthy in a truly ecumenical environment, such as the Trinity Absolute.

If by “unique” you mean exclusive, then you will have to pardon me for saying, I don’t think that’s very Christian. In a strange way, I think your attitude has more in common with Muslims (which is OK too, in some respects). You both believe in only one true God, and you define him in exclusive terms, but just differently.

We do not all have to be the same. We will always be unique in personality, and independent in mind, but since we all have an indwelling spark of the spirit of God, then reason tells us that the “voice of conscience” is universal - and declares Kant’s one categorical imperative, which boils down to the Golden Rule. Jesus morality is something everyone can stake their lives on. Muhammad and Gandhi articulated versions of the same thing. Gandhi added laconically, “If its going to be an eye for an eye, the whole world will go blind.”

OK, I agree that “there is no taking away from Jesus incarnation, so… Jesus Christ is the only way.” There are of course other ways, but in the end they won’t get you there without Christ; whom some Christians say you will meet on Judgement Day, whether you like it or not. The Quran says you will have a face-to-face meeting with Allah (the Deity Absolute) on that day, but some Christians insist that Christ will be our judge, not our lawyer (intercessor).

What do you think? Can we try to get on the same page, because that would really help?

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.trinityabsolute.com
 
Hello, Samuel,

I don’t know if we are just not understanding each other. I’m not against ecumenism, I’m fully submitted to the decisions of the Church. But what you are calling ecumenism is what I call false ecumenism. Ecumenism is what goes on with the talks the church holds with different groups, Other Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc. There’s never an attempt at making what is different the same. Only an honest, open, respectful discussion involving explanations, questions, answers etc, until each understands what each side believes, therefore what is common between them as well as what is different. If people cannot live with each other, respecting one another, even loving each other and forging friendships, without forcing us all under one belief-system, then our race is doomed.

The CCC (our Catechism) clearly says that God is able to furnish the faith necessary for salvation to others, non-Christians, in ways known to him alone. Whatever way this is, I know it involves Jesus Christ, because he is our way, truth and life. What I’m not agreeing to, is altering the truth that Jesus revealed to us, to accommodate people of different beliefs. This is not true ecumenism.

Peace.
 
@Samuel,

So, sorry, my friend - Jesus Christ is the only way.

Mary,

There has been a lot of soft-soap pedalled about ecumenism and interfaith dialogue, but I’m afraid that a lot of people reading this forum, actually hold that the only way to bring about true religious unity is by non-Catholics converting to Catholicism. Their idea of “reaching out” is endeavoring to snatch believers of other religions from the darkness of the errors in which they unhappily lie.

The differences between religions are not easily synthesized, that’s for sure, especially if Christians are going to emphasize exclusivity. I bent over backward in my previous postings to meet you part way on this. Now let me try a slightly different approach.

First of all the Bible does not say Jesus is the ONLY way. It seems to me that the two most relevant verses are: “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6), and “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:44).

Jesus will not be an intercessor or mediator for Christians on Judgment Day. He will be the judge of all humankind on that fateful day. So, technically, no man comes to the Father, except through the Son. What do you think?

I’ve come as close as I can to acknowledging Jesus as the “only” way to the Father, without veering into the kind of aggressive and obnoxious exclusivism that verges on religious racism and arrogant bigotry. I know that deep down, that is not you. Or is it? Please tell me it ain’t so.

You know that my views include the best in all religions, and I believe that the contradictions can be overcome - maybe not fully resolved, but sufficiently reconciled to achieve religious peace and even harmony.

Contradictions can be composed in syntheses, while remaining contradictions in different respects. Have you never heard of the science of dialectics, and the courses they teach in Business School on conflict resolution? A good example of this is the well-known theory that light is both a wave and a particle. Both sides of this apparent contradiction are true in different respects or applications.

In your last posting, you suggest that in true ecumenism, “there’s never an attempt at making what is different the same.” But I’m not trying to make them all the same. I am merely pointing out that Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism each have a personality or “flavour” that maps directly onto the psychology of the persons of the Trinity. Buddhism, Confucian-Taoism, and other major religions seem to be variations or combinations of the basic three.

As might be expected from all the laws of logic and analogy, world religions actually do reflect God. Far from making what is different the same, the Trinity Absolute provides a rich multi-dimensional basis for conceiving a place for all major religions, as different ways of looking at the same God.

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.trinityabsolute.com
 
Hello, Samuel,

Perhaps I’m the one who just does not understand you or your approach (Trinity Absolute). To be honest, the concepts fly past my mind and I have trouble getting to know for sure what you mean- like what you say about the religions being different psychological aspects of the different persons etc.

I myself have no problem seeing God in other faiths- I don’t think that God left people completely abandoned until the Jews and Christians came to them. Nor do I believe that there’s no truth in these faiths. But I do believe that Christianity, in Catholicism is the fullness of truth. I believe that it was Christ who told us to go into the world and baptize everyone in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe that it was him who commanded his apostles to teach others to observe all that Jesus had commanded them- So the kind of ecumenism that you criticize is Divinely mandated and a fundamental part of our faith.

Again, I think I’m the one who just does not understand your approach. You say you’re not trying to make everything the same, I guess I can take your word for it and believe that. I’m not trying to offend you or rubbish your efforts at forging understanding between faiths. I’m just articulating my own faith as I understand it.

Peace
 
Hello, Samuel,

The kind of ecumenism that you criticize is Divinely mandated and a fundamental part of our faith.

Peace
I apologize for saying that “a lot of people reading this forum” actually use ecumenism as a stalking horse for conversion. I was only going on a thing you said, and that’s what set me off.

I believe that religious racism is the curse of the earth. When someone says there is “only” one way to know God, it threatens the whole thesis of the Trinity. I was just trying to draw this forcefully to your attention, and it looks like I have.

Rather than quote my book at you, which I’m dying to do, since you won’t read my website, I’ve asked the spirit for something you might like. So here is my peace offering.

Thanks for pointing out that Mary is our intercessor. I may be right that Jesus will be our judge, but you’re also right, Mary may be our intercessor with Jesus.

However, it should be noted that she has an uneven record in this regard. While she may have moved Jesus to turn the water into wine, later on, she was unsuccessful in altering his mind. You might feel that Jesus was being a bit hard on his mother at that point, but he could not indulge her in more important matters affecting his mission.

One can only imagine the incredible things Jesus must have come out with when he was young, and how Mary thought and pondered on these things in her heart. After the annunciation to her by the angel Gabriel, Mary was naturally thrilled with expectation that her son would be a supernatural king. She probably saw her job as preparing him for the throne of David.

During his early ministry, no doubt she rejoiced in his success, but after Cana, her high spirit sank low. Nearer the end, when it all seemed to be going terribly wrong, she despaired for her son.

She seems to have believed that the political conception within her was ordained in heaven. She was always saying, I cannot understand him. Perhaps she was always torn between love and fear.

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.trinityabsolute.com
 
Samuel,

I decided to look at your website hoping that I might be able to understand your concepts a bit more. I honestly have difficulty even with the first two/three pages…Do you think you could find a way of speaking about your concepts in “common tongue”? I truly don’t know what you’re saying, Samuel, please explain it to me in simple language…

For example, this paragraph

*These metaphysical cosmic coordinates may be called the Three Absolutes of Creation, i.e.: **(1) The transcendent **existential thesis eternalized in the Deity Absolute and usually epitomized as the Primogenitor Creator, or Prime Being; (2) The immanent **experiential antithesis materialized in the Universe Absolute and especially personalized in the gestalt of the Almighty Universe Oversoul, or Supreme Being; and (3) Their ultimate *associative synthesis sublimated in the Unconditioned Absolute and sometimes expressed as the Infinite Spirit of All That Is, or what Immanuel Kant called the “Being of All Beings.”

What are you saying here in simple language? I really don’t think it’s possible to have any meaningful conversation when all one side hears is Greek (Yet they speak none!) Could you make it more concrete and down to Earth so we can grasp it?

Peace.
 
@Samuel,

After that long debate about the Blessed Trinity, I’d really rather not get into another one about The Blessed Virgin. Suffice it to say that the picture you paint of her is foreign to my mind as a Catholic.

You should know that to us, the Virgin was spotless, immaculate throughout her life- full of grace. Despair is a type of sin against the theological virtues of Hope and Faith in God, It’s a failure in these two virtues, and no orthodox catholic would dare associate The Virgin with any such failure- She’s the very picture of fidelity to the will of God, possessing all virtues to a degree that can be compared to no other creature. She was also praised in the scripture by Christ for “believing” that what was said to her would come to pass, which is trusting in God. It’s not to say that she was never left in the dark about God’s and her son’s doings- The three days that our Lord was lost in Jerusalem is one example of her not being made privy to God’s plans and doings. But You can’t really have a proper conversation with a Catholic, as it seems you hope to, by painting Our Lady as one who lost faith and hope or Trust in God- To Catholics, even at the suffering and death of Christ, that must have been a real death and martyrdom of soul to her, Mary never wavered from surrendering to the Divine will.

It’s also not a good idea to paint her as vain, disappointed that Christ was not performing more miracles by her intercession, or taking over the world. Our Lady was told when Christ was a baby that he would be a sign of contradiction and that a sword would pierce her own soul- She may not have known the details, but she knew the darkness was coming and that her Son would suffer and she along with him. She had no personal or wordly ambitions, her entire life is all about God doing his thing, not fulfilling Mary’s expectations- And I’m very unwilling to ascribe to her expectations of worldly glory.

I know you meant this as common ground, I hope you understand who she is to us.

Peace.
 
@Samuel,

After that long debate about the Blessed Trinity, I’d really rather not get into another one about The Blessed Virgin…
I know you meant this as common ground, I hope you understand who she is to us.

Peace.
Mary,

You know more about mother Mary than I do, as you’ve pointed out. You say that you “don’t understand” the Trinity Absolute - please make it short and sweet. So, I’ll do my best. In return, please be patient with me, indulge me for a moment, and help me perfect my understanding of Mary.

Please don’t talk down to me as a Non-Catholic. If you will check my website Contact page, you’ll see that my mother was a Catholic. I can add that her name was also Mary.

I don’t think the biblical Mary ever really lost faith in either Jesus or the Father, I didn’t mean “despair” as in suicidal (which really is a sin). I meant she was deeply concerned for her son, and cruely disillusioned by the turn of events that led to the crucifixion.

Vanity thy name is woman. Mary was a woman. Therefore, naturally Mary was vain? No!

I agree with you that Mary was not vain. I think being close to Jesus made Mary go about with a permanent smile in the early days, but later, she may have had a premonition of the crucifixion, and was grief-stricken at the prospect she saw. As a dutiful parent, she tried to intervene, to implore Jesus to save himself and all his believers from the Sanhedrin and the Romans - not out of pity for herself, but because she did not fully understand Jesus spiritual mission, and what it entailed.

I imagine that somewhere along the line, the nasty turn of events (which she must have foreseen to some extent with great foreboding), broke Mary’s heart.

I agree with you that Mary had no personal ambitions, but I think she was naturally ambitious for her son. After all Mary was not a God, and what human mother would not have high expectations, after what she went through. Who in her position wouldn’t have expectations of worldly, as well as heavenly glory for such a Son?

Unfortunately, neither Mary nor the disciples fully understand that Jesus mission was strictly spiritual, and that he (and perhaps she with him) will return as the Christ, whom we speculate will be the head of the Almighty Supreme Oversoul of all humankind, physically stepping onto the world stage (incarnating again) - Jesus glorified.

Don’t you agree that perhaps Mary’s greatest virtue was fidelity? Courage and faith are great in the right place, but loyalty is almost always good, and honesty is always the best policy.

Getting back to the Trinity for a moment. I think you should take the advice I gave Lisa, and read the Book Preview (only 19 pages) through as quickly a possible, without thinking about it too much. Since everything there echoes the systematic unity of the Trinity of One God, my theory is that at some point you will open to all that coherence in metaphysics, as well as in universal morality, and you will “see” as the mystics say - the three postulates of practical reason - freewill, God, and immortality proven and demonstrated by logical argument.

As indicated previously, I think we have to be careful with labels like “one way” and the true religion, which suggests that some significant religions are false. You might be happy with “live and let live” among major religions, and you seem to respect the Christian ideals of ecumenism, interfaith dialogue, and religious pluralism. OK, in order to have a real dialogue, we must be able to agree that all major world religions are respectable because they are true to a very large extent.

You see, exclusivism is the prime premise of tribalism, elitism, separatism, and racism. Only at the level of nationalism (and major religions), may we speculate that some of the big groups “map onto” the psychology of Trinity, and are thus unified - no longer being exclusively just one proud nation (or church), but also world citizens forged in a potentially divine United Nations (or world council of freewill churches) supremely, ultimately, and absolutely multi-dimensional - the kingdom of God - which we can sometimes glimpse.

It might help you understand, if you consider the following basic psychological feelings of the members of the Trinity.

The Father hates sinners, but his greatest expression and strongest satisfaction is loving all his children, and being loved by them, so he suffers them. The Son loves the sinner, but hates the sin. The Spirit both suffers and forgives the sinner. So, you should be able to see that in Trinity, the first person of God can hate sinners (Islam), the second person can love sinners (Christianity), while the third person bears with and pardons sinners (Hinduism).

Differences and uniqueness always remain, but may be transformed in a higher synthesis (the bigger picture). Consider the following rational declension, based on the dialectics of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis, i.e.:
  1. Islamists hold that no humans are incarnations of God (monists)… sternly aggressive/offensive psychological attitude.
  2. Christians believe that there is only one incarnation of God (dualists and trinitarians)… lovingly aggressive/defensive attitude.
  3. Hindus have faith that all humankind are incarnations of God (polytheists and pantheists)… meekly defensive/aggressive psychology.
God is absolutely true in one respect, supremely true in another, ultimately true in their synthesis, and eternally true in the Trinity Absolute of One God.

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.trinityabsolute.com
 
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