Questions about Trinity

[javid]

Hallo, Javid,

I don’t know if your experience is similar to my own, but my experience was that I found it impossible to understand The Trinity and the Hypo-static union of Christ (100% God and 100% man) until I understood the difference between nature and person. Only after understanding that could I see that there’s no contradiction in saying God is one in three, because it’s not one nature in three natures, or three natures in one, or one person in three persons or three persons in one, but one single nature in three distinct persons.

Nature and Person
We ourselves have an instinctive understanding of the difference between nature and person (The what of a being and the who of a being) in the way we interact and speak about ourselves.

a) If an alien came to Earth and asked you, “What are you?” You’d answer him “I’m a human being”. Why? Because you would understand that he was asking “What type of being are you?” or “What is your nature?” He saw you and wondered, what kind of creature is this?
-We understand that human nature involves the union of a body like the one we all have and a rational soul. When I see it I know what type of a being that is (a man) because he has everything that involves being human.

b) But if the alien asked you “Who are you?”, you would never say “I’m a human being” but more likely you would say, “I am Joe Francis”, or “Will Smith” etc. Again Why? Because you’d understand that he was asking for an identity, a person.

c) Also, we tend to speak of our natures as things we possess, almost like property…My body, my soul…Who is this who takes complete and unapologetic ownership over the body and soul? Who is it in us who says "my body, my soul, with absolute right and entitlement? We seem to understand that we are not our bodies, nor our souls, but that they are ours. The body and soul together is the perfect human nature (what it means to be human) and it is yours, not you. Why? Because you, my friend are actually a person, who has a nature. They are not the same.

Now, there is such a deep union between the person and the nature, that it is not like the way you own your bag, or house or anything else. You could never own your bag in such a way that it could be said to be “one with you”, so much that whatever happens to the bag, it could be taken as having happened to you…Nonsense! That would be insane. The bag has its own existence separate from you, you wouldn’t even appreciate what it means to be a bag!

But the union of the person and his nature is just such a union that they are said to be one. It is such a deep perfect and permanent union, that you cannot speak of one without the other, which is why we often confuse them. What we see the nature of a human do, we ascribe to the person. It’s the person who acts in the nature. Because of this complete control, perfect possession of nature by the person as well its perfect union with them…

For example, if someone slapped you, they would not be able to say to you “Oh I’m sorry, it wasn’t me, it was my hand”. Nor do we say, “My body walked to Church today”, or “My mouth ate today” but* I *walked, I ate etc. We understand that whatever the body does, it is the person who does them.

The Nature of God
What is God’s nature? What type of being is he? What kind of existence does he have? God identified himself to Moses as “YHWH” which is “I am who AM” or “I am he who IS” or “I am that I AM”. This is the verb “to be” which is to exist. Now, you exist, I exist, as does everything we see all around us, so why would God chose the fact of his own existence…to be…as the way to identify himself, to set himself apart from all others? Because it is God’s own nature to exist, fully, always, perpetually, without limits. We ourselves have a particular way of existing, which is to be human, the animals have different ones, the plants, even the angels have distinctive ways of existing, given by God the Creator. A creature is one who exists in a limited way, these limits give us the different kinds of natures. I cannot exist as a flower, cat, or angel, I’m limited to the human being, neither can an angel be a human or a flower. These are limits…God’s nature is that existence that has ''no particulars" or no limits. While a flower is beautiful or has beauty, God our creator is not just beautiful or good or powerful, but the fullness of beauty itself (what it means to be beautiful), that is, ultimate beauty, beauty without limit (in-finiteness) He is ultimate goodness, ultimate power etc

Hello. Thank you very much. but let me ask some questions:

Do you believe that concept of God is overall or trivial?

What is “I”(me)? Is it apart from my body and my soul? Is it my soul? Is it my body? Is it Combination of soul and body that if one of them be apart from the other, I would be disappeared?

Please give me your definition of holy trinity. A definition that shows your comments does not show a modalist model or a god with three parts.

What do you mean “Personality”, exactly? How can we imagine person without nature and how can we imagine one nature with three persons?

Do you believe that three persons of holy trinity are equal in all details?(according to logic definition)

Your answers will help me very much, please answer one by one,

Thanks.

 

[javid]

(First this was stated by C.S. Lewis inside of Mere Christianity and is probably better explained there. Peter Kreeft has also used it and I personally haven’t found anything heretical in it.)

We call Christ the word of God. But words aren’t persons. Unless of course we say that this word or thought is this word or thought completely personiffied as a literal person that has resulted from this.

You have a great poiint in that Christ knows himself perfectly meaning there would be other sons. But this would be an exact copy of Christ. The only difference between Father and Son is who begot who (and that Christ became man). So, if Christ begot another Son He would be identical to christ and since He is not inside of time and space he would literally be Christ making him once again one Christ. This is like the electron (which has theorized to possibly be only a single electron that is bouncing back and forward through time which has made it appear to be many en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe) The only way we can tell the difference and what makes the electron different is the fact that it is in different places and at different times. If they were both in one spot they would be one. So, Christ and these other begottens would be occupying the same spot (everywhere) and be identical in all ways (they were begotten, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc.) meaning they would be only one in all ways.

I use the word begotten because that is why is found in the creed and is the best way to describe Christ and Him being there for all eternity but also coming from the father. This does not imply that God the Father was around before Christ nor that God the Father or Christ had a creator. It just means that Christ came from the Father.

Hi. Thank you.

But I don’t think they can be the son(copies of Jesus), because if they are several ones they can’t be same and aqual in all details, or they all must be one: God the son

Please explain about it.

God bless you.

 

[Heuchler]

Hi. Thank you.

But I don’t think they can be the son(copies of Jesus), because if they are several ones they can’t be same and aqual in all details, or they all must be one: God the son

Please explain about it.

God bless you.

I’m sorry but I’m not exactly sure the question/point. So, if I address the wrong thing, I’m sorry.

If I understand you right, you seem to be reiterating my point in saying that there can only be one God the Son as if there were several others, they would all end up being one person because they share the exact same attributes. So, there can only be one God the son. If you want to get a better explanation of this concept you can find it inside of Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis which I would suggest literally everyone should read at some point.

 

[Regardless]

We use many words that are not found in the Bible, … the concept of the Trinity can be found:

“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit” (Matthew 28:19).

“The undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the sharing in the holy spirit be with all of YOU” (2 Corinthians 13:14).

“One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all” (Ephesians 4:4-7)

I understand your point, - you make it very well. But those are scriptures that merely list the three. They don’t say they are one.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are mentioned together numerous times, but that does not make them one. Peter, James, and John are named together, but that does not make them one either.

Another place where the three (Father son and holy spirit) are mentioned together is when Jesus was baptized. God, Jesus, and the holy spirit were mentioned in the same context. Jesus “saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him.” (Matthew 3:16) This, certainly does not say that the three are one. Infact- God’s spirit descending upon Jesus at his baptism, shows that Jesus was not anointed by spirit until that time. This being so, how could he be part of a Trinity where he had always been one with the holy spirit?

These three are mentioned at Acts 7:54-56 also. But the context again shows clearly they are separate and not equal. (Jesus is even seen standing at God’s right hand! - Proving Jesus is not God and is infact of lesser rank. (after all, 1 Cor. 11:3 explains: “The head of Christ is God”)

And notice, in these verses, the Father is often called “God” while the other two are not. Distinguishing him.

All things considered, I do not see the Trinity here.

 

[jochoa]

I understand your point, - you make it very well. But those are scriptures that merely list the three. They don’t say they are one.

These three are mentioned at Acts 7:54-56 also. But the context again shows clearly they are separate and not equal. (Jesus is even seen standing at God’s right hand! - Proving Jesus is not God and is infact of lesser rank. (after all, 1 Cor. 11:3 explains: “The head of Christ is God”)

And notice, in these verses, the Father is often called “God” while the other two are not. Distinguishing him.

All things considered, I do not see the Trinity here.

Please note: In sharing my understandings of the Mystery of God’s Being, I only hope that we may grow closer to Him as a Team.

In order to recognize The Holy Trinity, one must first recognize that Jesus and God are of the same being(image/body). Please consider the following Scriptures:
Deuteronomy 6:4
“The Lord our God is One.”
I think - If there is no reference to multiple persons, stating, “The Lord our God…” would be redundant and purposeless considering, “Our God is One” would be sufficient. Therefore, the purpose in stating, “The Lord,” is to direct the interpreter to find alignment in the Bible of another person called Lord.

Deuteronomy 4:35
“…the Lord is God.”
Zechariah 14:9
“…the Lord will be king…on that day, the Lord will be one…”
Isaiah 9:6
“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
1 Kings 8:60
“…the Lord is God, there is no other.”
Deuteronomy 4:39
“…the Lord is God in heaven above and on earth beneath…”
1 Corinthians 1:3
“…and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
John 10:30
“I and the Father are One.”
Genesis 1:26
“…in our image, after our likeness”

Since Jesus is established as God, we can find other Scripture to recognize the Holy Spirit as God, which has been done already.

The next question is: How can the Father be God, the Son be God, and the Holy Spirit be God, and all three working together be God? Please consider the following personal and simplified conceptualization:
God is a spirit/person with a being of an image/body and knowledge/thoughts from which a will proceeds. All components of God work perfectly according to the the Nature of True Love: always being and spreading the means to being perfectly patient and kind and motivated with all your body and with all your spirit and with all your thoughts and with all your will in order to live in unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, and unstoppable energy as a society and individual.
When God became flesh/material, each component of His being became material. When God became material, there became a distinction between His mind, body, and will.
God’s thoughts/knowledge becoming material is the imaging of how to achieve God’s goal of having free willed beings to be One with His nature. Therefore, God’s thoughts are fully the knowledge of the Father, and are fully everything that happens. Since the Father is the immaterial spirit of God with an image, knowledge, and will, the Father is a person. And since the Father alone does not have the complete body and will of God, the Father is a Distinct Person. Throughout time the Father is revealed first.
God’s body becoming material is the imaging of what exactly God would do if He came down from heaven to direct people to the complete purpose. Therefore, God’s image/body is fully the image/body of the Father and the Son. Since the Son does not share the complete thoughts/knowledge, nor will of God, the Son is a distinct person. Throughout time the Son is revealed second. It can also be said that the Son completes the Body of God.
God’s will is the imaging of His actions to lead free willed beings to be One with His nature, is being revealed as material throughout time. Therefore, His will is fully the will of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit does not have the exact image/body, nor thoughts/knowledge, nor will of God, the Holy Spirit is a distinct person. Throughout time the Holy Spirit is revealed third. It can also be said that the Holy Spirit completes the Will of God.
Since…
-Each distinct person is fully of God
-Each instance of God’s person is fully of God’s nature
-Each component is inseparable from one another. For without one instance of any component, God would not be God.
It can be said that God is the Father and God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit and God is the Holy Trinity OR 3 Persons in 1 Person.

The Challenge:
Recognize that you have a Free Will just like God.
Recognize that you are learning about Jesus and God, therefore you are somewhat proceeding from the Father and the Son.
Recognize that you could be the Holy Spirit we are waiting for, so go and use all your being to become One in God’s Nature of True Love as Jesus Did according to His Church!

Regarding 1 Cor 11:3
If you will recognize that Jesus is fully God’s body, then the head(mind) of God’s body is God’s mind.

Thoughts?

 

[Regardless]

Please note: In sharing my understandings of the Mystery of God’s Being, I only hope that we may grow closer to Him as a Team…
It can be said that God is the Father and God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit and God is the Holy Trinity OR 3 Persons in 1 Person.
…
If you will recognize that Jesus is fully God’s body, then the head(mind) of God’s body is God’s mind.
Thoughts?

Wow.You certainly have some good scriptural reasoning there. And that is probably the best explaination of the Trinity I have read.

I could work through each point and research answers. Some I have researched before. JW’s have access to huge amounts of Bible literature that helps understand the scriptures.
Of course, the reply would be several pages.

But to tell you the truth, we don’t spend heaps of time trying to debate the trinity with people.
If someone we are studying the Bible with believes it, we will show him what the Bible says about the relationship between Jesus and his Father. Perhaps we will explain some of the scriptures that are often used to support the trinity. Even give the student material to research themselves.
watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_04.htm
But if the student is not convinced, usually we just carry on.
We move onto God’s purpose for the earth or his promises for the future. Why he has allowed suffering and what God’s Kingdom is.
There isn’t a lot of value in spending too much time on one doctrine the Catholic Church adopted once - and admits is incomprehensible.

As the student learns more about Jehovah’s purpose and how Jesus fits in with that. His roles as King and Ransom, High Priest and Leader – More and more scriptures come up that have a bearing on God and Jesus, and belief in the Trinity fades.
A bit like a detective who has a pet theory, but as the evidence slowly mounts against it, he mentions it less and less.

If the student is really interested in what the Bible teaches, they will accept it. If they are determined to prove JW’s wrong, no amount of arguing will convince them and we are wasting our time.

Thanks for your fantastic post though. I learned alot.

 

[jochoa]

But to tell you the truth, we don’t spend heaps of time trying to debate the trinity with people.
If someone we are studying the Bible with believes it, we will show him what the Bible says about the relationship between Jesus and his Father. Perhaps we will explain some of the scriptures that are often used to support the trinity. Even give the student material to research themselves.
watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_04.htm
But if the student is not convinced, usually we just carry on.
We move onto God’s purpose for the earth or his promises for the future. Why he has allowed suffering and what God’s Kingdom is.
There isn’t a lot of value in spending too much time on one doctrine the Catholic Church adopted once - and admits is incomprehensible.

As the student learns more about Jehovah’s purpose and how Jesus fits in with that. His roles as King and Ransom, High Priest and Leader – More and more scriptures come up that have a bearing on God and Jesus, and belief in the Trinity fades.
A bit like a detective who has a pet theory, but as the evidence slowly mounts against it, he mentions it less and less.

If the student is really interested in what the Bible teaches, they will accept it. If they are determined to prove JW’s wrong, no amount of arguing will convince them and we are wasting our time.

Thanks for your fantastic post though. I learned alot.

First, thank you very much for taking the time to consider my response, replying with your thoughts, and even sharing some very kind and inspirational words. Second, I was only trying to provide you a method to see how the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are each fully and equally God, since you were claiming that each are not equal and of the same being. Last, if you would like to continue discussing whether or not the Trinity is Absolute, I would more than gladly focus great time and energy to simplify my understandings.

Regarding the Faith in God’s Existence
I am definitely in agreement with you in that, if two people cannot agree on an understanding of God’s Being, then agree to disagree and focus on how to grow as a team to do God’s Will.

Regarding your link
Though these are valid arguments, they are incomplete. Unfortunately, I am currently not yet wise enough to explain the completeness of Truth. Therefore, I am fully in favor of agreeing to disagree.

Regarding “…as the evidence slowly mounts against it, he mentions it less and less.”
Please consider a couple of points regarding this:

1. Once I realized a method of logically understanding the person of God as the persons of the Holy Trinity along with an understanding of the nature of true love based on the Greatest Commandments, understanding Scripture has become easier to understand, more enjoyable to read, more hopeful for the future, which has in turn, made my ability to live the Word, much better.
2. Please note: I do not mean any offense when I state the following, for I will gladly stop discussing the Mystery of God’s Being at any point you are uncomfortable, however, please consider the following:
   In order to do God’s Will (the purpose of humans), in order to achieve the blessings of God (unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, unstoppable energy, and content wisdom), a person must learn to do the Greatest Commandments perfectly. Therefore, please consider the following personal interpretation of the Greatest Commandments:
   “Always being and spreading the means to being perfectly patient and kind and motivated for God with all your body and with all your spirit and with all your thoughts and with all your will towards God, others and the self, in order to achieve all the blessings (unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, unstoppable energy, and content wisdom) of God as a society and individual.”
   This is the Truly Loving Nature: God is always true love, and the only way to learn of this definition of True Love is by learning from what Jesus, the Son said in the Greatest Commandments and demonstrated in His Crucifixion.
   From this, one will find the content wisdom regarding the being of person/spirit: A being of a body/image and thoughts/knowledge from which a will proceeds.
   When one recognizes that the pinnacle of person is when each component of being operates perfectly according to the Truly Loving Nature, one will easily perceive that it is when all components of a being/person/spirit work together as One, aka Holy Spirit.
   Therefore, through the powers of substitution: God’s Will is the Holy Spirit (a distinct person who has become One in God’s Nature of True Love by proceeding from the Father and the Son).

Thoughts?

 

[Heuchler]

I understand your point, - you make it very well. But those are scriptures that merely list the three. They don’t say they are one.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are mentioned together numerous times, but that does not make them one. Peter, James, and John are named together, but that does not make them one either.

Another place where the three (Father son and holy spirit) are mentioned together is when Jesus was baptized. God, Jesus, and the holy spirit were mentioned in the same context. Jesus “saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him.” (Matthew 3:16) This, certainly does not say that the three are one. Infact- God’s spirit descending upon Jesus at his baptism, shows that Jesus was not anointed by spirit until that time. This being so, how could he be part of a Trinity where he had always been one with the holy spirit?

These three are mentioned at Acts 7:54-56 also. But the context again shows clearly they are separate and not equal. (Jesus is even seen standing at God’s right hand! - Proving Jesus is not God and is infact of lesser rank. (after all, 1 Cor. 11:3 explains: “The head of Christ is God”)

And notice, in these verses, the Father is often called “God” while the other two are not. Distinguishing him.

All things considered, I do not see the Trinity here.

In the beginning there was the word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God. Just because they are in seperate places means nothing. Christ the Word was both with God and was God at once. Unless you decide to leave out the Holy Spirit creating some dualistic belief, you are only left with the idea of a trinity

 

[Regardless]

First, thank you very much for taking the time to consider my response, …

Regarding the Faith in God’s Existence
I am definitely in agreement with you in that, if two people cannot agree on an understanding of God’s Being, then agree to disagree and focus on how to grow as a team to do God’s Will.

In order to do God’s Will (the purpose of humans),… a person must learn to do the Greatest Commandments perfectly…

This is the Truly Loving Nature: God is always true love, and the only way to learn of this definition of True Love is by learning from what Jesus, the Son said in the Greatest Commandments and demonstrated in His Crucifixion.
…

Thank you again Jochoa.
I much appreciate your polite and patient response.

I have read your reply, and left quoted above statements I especially enjoyed and agreed with.

Alas, I have not the time today to give your thoughts the time and attention they deserve.
Infact, I still feel obliged to go back and work through your earlier post. - especially your comments about “there is only one Lord - and Jesus was called Lord.” I want to look each of those scriptures you listed up and see if ‘Lord’ was used as a title or was replacing YHWH.

I hope to be able to do so later in the week.
Thanks again.

 

[jochoa]

Thank you again Jochoa.
I much appreciate your polite and patient response.

I have read your reply, and left quoted above statements I especially enjoyed and agreed with.

Alas, I have not the time today to give your thoughts the time and attention they deserve.
Infact, I still feel obliged to go back and work through your earlier post. - especially your comments about “there is only one Lord - and Jesus was called Lord.” I want to look each of those scriptures you listed up and see if ‘Lord’ was used as a title or was replacing YHWH.

I hope to be able to do so later in the week.
Thanks again.

To help gather some resources and consider them myself, here are some links to various interpretations of the Some scripture references:
bible.cc/deuteronomy/4-35.htm
bible.cc/zechariah/14-9.htm
bible.cc/isaiah/9-6.htm
bible.cc/1_kings/8-60.htm
bible.cc/deuteronomy/4-39.htm
bible.cc/1_corinthians/1-3.htm
bible.cc/john/10-30.htm
bible.cc/genesis/1-26.htm
bible.cc/john/1-18.htm
bible.cc/exodus/20-5.htm
bible.cc/isaiah/3-1.htm

Also, do you include all of the “I am…” statements of Jesus as supporting Jesus as “I AM”

I look forward to further discussion and consideration of perspective.

 

[Marybeloved]

Hello Javid

What is “I”(me)? Is it apart from my body and my soul? Is it my soul? Is it my body? Is it Combination of soul and body that if one of them be apart from the other, I would be disappeared?

What I know is that you are a person with a nature, which is body and soul. Without that nature, you would not be human. However, when you die, the Soul which is the principle of life for the Bogy, leaves/separates from the body, so the body decays. You do not become any less human because of the loss of the body and that’s why there’s resurrection, your body must return to you so that you can be fully yourself. But at death, your person possesses and makes use only of the soul.

-A nature can exist without a person, like rock and tree for example. The are definitely natures, real instances of true existence, just like us, but they are no persons at all. -But no person can exist without a nature, A person must act in nature.
-The best I can do (I’m no philosopher by any stretch of the imagination) is to say, that nature actualizes in person-hood, or becomes self-possessed in person-hood.

The world exists with a real existence but does not know itself, nor can it give itself with true volition, it’s not self-possessed. Material nature (physical things of matter) cannot actualize, become fully self-possessed.

Spiritual or immaterial nature is naturally fully actualizable (forgive the bad language). Purely spiritual creatures, like the angels, are fully self-possessed as soon as they come into existence, and their volition (free will) is total- Their choices permanent. That, is to say, all their nature is fully possessed by their own will and comes into full domination of their own free will, so that when they give themselves or commit to a particular choice, they give themselves fully at once, and there’s no turning back. That’s why there’s no repentance for the angels when they reject God. Their choice is complete.

But we humans grow into ourselves slowly in many ways. A baby has no consciousness/awareness of itself. That’s why we remember nothing from our infancy. It’s just aware of its experience at any moment, cold, happy etc- But never of itself. At some point, the toddler begins to know that it’s mother is a distinct person from itself and the baby is a unique individual. From then on the child becomes more and more aware of itself and can begin to make choices for himself to the limits of his own (small) self-possession. Basically, the “much” of you that is in your own consciousness, is the much of you that is truly in your control, and the only much that you can give to another or exercise true freedom of choice with. This is supposed to grow into full actualization, but in most humans it doesn’t (even psychologists will tell you this). Personally, I believe it’s because of the fall. A pure spirit, however is fully actualized at the first moment of is existence.

We humans are both material and spiritual in nature, a strange creature, similar to the rock and animal on the one hand and to the angels (and God) on the other. We also have person-hood, self-possession and volition, similar to all spiritual beings. Because of this, we grow, and are not at once fully actualized.

Please give me your definition of holy trinity. A definition that shows your comments does not show a modalist model or a god with three parts.

God’s being/nature being utmost totality of existence without limit is fully actual, fully self-possessed in all its infinite fullness, but not with one self-consciousness but three. I’ve heard a philosopher say that three self-consciousnesses of God, three 'I"s, possessing and actualizing the one absolute existence of God. There are not three parts, because they are three "I"s of the same existence, not three beings or three natures, but just one nature.

Do you believe that three persons of holy trinity are equal in all details?(according to logic definition)

The only distinctions in the Trinity are simply: The Father is he who begets, The Son is he who is begotten, The Holy Spirit is he who proceeds. The are all infinite, co-eternal, co-equal, because they each make full and absolute use of the one divine nature, each as his own. They do not make use of one third of the Divine nature each-No. The each fully possess and make use of the one Divine nature fully, as if each is the sole owner/person-hood of God, so they have only one will.

Peace.

 

[JDaniel]

Hi, I am Christian and I believe in Jesus as son of God, But I have several logical questions about Trirnity. I would ask the one by one.

First: How can more than one unlimited being exist?

I mean if God the father is unlimited, so there is no for another person to be unlimited.

Thank you.

Welcome Javid:

Although we don’t have a complete understanding of this doctrine, for obvious reasons, for we are limited beings attempting to conceive of the properties of the limitless being. But, one thing for sure is: God is One. While it is true that unaided human reason could not have devised such a concept does not mean that the concept is incomprehensible or repugnant to reason. The fact was made known to us through Revelation, thus, God decided that humans could hold the concept. (See: Matthew - xi 27 and Matthew - xxviii 19)

The Athanasian Creed, from the early fifth century (I think), sums up the doctrine with no help from the Councils of Ephesus or Chalcedon. It proclaims: “Now the Catholic Faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity.” It then goes on to state: “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet there are not three Gods, but one God.” This is merely to say that the doctrine has been with us from the beginnings of Christianity.

But, how is it possible that there are three Persons in one God you ask? For sure, these are not ‘conceptual beings.’ This is what leads you to the dilemma in your OP. The concept is called, “procession(s).” The origins of the Trinity are called, “processions” from the one God.

God is that which is maximal in all respects. An important maximal determinant is that is, fecundity. God is, as scripture tells us, continually creating and causing. But, it is obvious that what he creates and causes cannot be another, separate God, for God is not only Infinite in perfections, he is also infinite in spiritual magnitude. Another God would crowd out the first and render it very much less than Infinite Being.

Both Jesus and the Paraclete are ‘processions’ from the Father. Jesus tells us the he will send the Holy Spirit who, “proceedeth from the Father.” (John xv 26) Thus there are two distinct processions in the divine essence. John also tells us that, “God is spiritual.” (John iv 24) Therefore, the nature of these processions must be spiritual as well. Now, there are two essential activities in a spiritual agent, thought, by which the Father understands the true, and volition, by which he loves the good. The Church teaches that the Son and the Holy Spirit proceed from these two activities; one from God’s Thought and the other from God’s Volition. Thus, the Church teaches that the Son’s origin is from the Father’s Thought and the Holy Spirit’s origin is from the Father’s Volition.

I’m sure you have more questions, as this short description certainly cannot provide all there is to know and understand about the Trinity, but there’s a limit to our soliloquies on this forum. To be honest, I have not read any of the other posts, so I don’t know if this has already been covered. Anyway, you are welcome to ask questions.

God bless,
jd

 

[javid]

I’m sorry but I’m not exactly sure the question/point. So, if I address the wrong thing, I’m sorry.

If I understand you right, you seem to be reiterating my point in saying that there can only be one God the Son as if there were several others, they would all end up being one person because they share the exact same attributes. So, there can only be one God the son. If you want to get a better explanation of this concept you can find it inside of Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis which I would suggest literally everyone should read at some point.

Hi. Thank you.

How can we prove that God’s self-consciousness doesn’t make copies of his first person(copies of father) but the son’s self-consciousness makes copies of sons?

How can we prove that God’s self-consciousness makes two distinct persons but self-consciousness of one of these persons doesn’t make two distinct persons with two distict willings?

God bless you

 

[javid]

God’s being/nature being utmost totality of existence without limit is fully actual, fully self-possessed in all its infinite fullness, but not with one self-consciousness but three. I’ve heard a philosopher say that three self-consciousnesses of God, three 'I"s, possessing and actualizing the one absolute existence of God. There are not three parts, because they are three "I"s of the same existence, not three beings or three natures, but just one nature.

As you said we have three self-consciousnesses not three persons. So trinity is not real. when persons are not beings, so they doesn’t exist. Please help me if I’m wrong.

The only distinctions in the Trinity are simply: The Father is he who begets, The Son is he who is begotten, The Holy Spirit is he who proceeds. The are all infinite, co-eternal, co-equal, because they each make full and absolute use of the one divine nature, each as his own. They do not make use of one third of the Divine nature each-No. The each fully possess and make use of the one Divine nature fully, as if each is the sole owner/person-hood of God, so they have only one will.

As you said in this paragraph, persons of trinity are not like eachother. they are three distinct person with distinc and same willing. So how you can say they doesn’t have distinct beings? How can some thing doesn’t have being but has willing?

God bless you

 

[javid]

Welcome Javid…

Thanks. I will read your comments and ask my questions.

Thank you.

 

[couponfit]

Hi, I am Christian and I believe in Jesus as son of God, But I have several logical questions about Trirnity. I would ask the one by one.

First: How can more than one unlimited being exist?

I mean if God the father is unlimited, so there is no for another person to be unlimited.

Thank you.

Replace the word being with the word substance. That might help.

 

[couponfit]

Wow.You certainly have some good scriptural reasoning there. And that is probably the best explaination of the Trinity I have read.

I could work through each point and research answers. Some I have researched before. JW’s have access to huge amounts of Bible literature that helps understand the scriptures.
Of course, the reply would be several pages.

But to tell you the truth, we don’t spend heaps of time trying to debate the trinity with people.
If someone we are studying the Bible with believes it, we will show him what the Bible says about the relationship between Jesus and his Father. Perhaps we will explain some of the scriptures that are often used to support the trinity. Even give the student material to research themselves.
watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_04.htm
But if the student is not convinced, usually we just carry on.
We move onto God’s purpose for the earth or his promises for the future. Why he has allowed suffering and what God’s Kingdom is.
There isn’t a lot of value in spending too much time on one doctrine the Catholic Church adopted once - and admits is incomprehensible.

As the student learns more about Jehovah’s purpose and how Jesus fits in with that. His roles as King and Ransom, High Priest and Leader – More and more scriptures come up that have a bearing on God and Jesus, and belief in the Trinity fades.
A bit like a detective who has a pet theory, but as the evidence slowly mounts against it, he mentions it less and less.

If the student is really interested in what the Bible teaches, they will accept it. If they are determined to prove JW’s wrong, no amount of arguing will convince them and we are wasting our time.

Thanks for your fantastic post though. I learned alot.

I can’t link. Try the Athanasian creed. It should help because unlike the Apostols creed and the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, the Athanasian Creed includes an Anathemas. You can also look up the shield of Trinity to help.

 

[Heuchler]

Hi. Thank you.

How can we prove that God’s self-consciousness doesn’t make copies of his first person(copies of father) but the son’s self-consciousness makes copies of sons?

How can we prove that God’s self-consciousness makes two distinct persons but self-consciousness of one of these persons doesn’t make two distinct persons with two distict willings?

God bless you

To address the first part. Christ is the self-knowledge of the Father embodied. So, He is self-knowledge of God. The “copy” of Christ would be self-knowledge of God. They would be the same. The only way that they could be in any way different is if they were not God and were bound by things such as time and space but since there would be no way to differientiate Christ and the copy, and Christ is an ifinite being that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent the copy would be the same as saying there are two pennies in my hand which both occupy the same spot when all you see is one penny.

The second part. Christ is the “Word of God” and in that role, he is the self-knowledge of the Father. Being the self-knowledge of God means that he is only distinct of God in that He is the physical embodiment of this self-knowledge. I would point you back to the first part of this to see that this self-knowledge can’t be multiple beings. If you want the original and better analysis of this bit of speculation, you can read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.

 

[Spirithound]

How can we prove that God’s self-consciousness doesn’t make copies of his first person(copies of father) but the son’s self-consciousness makes copies of sons?

How can we prove that God’s self-consciousness makes two distinct persons but self-consciousness of one of these persons doesn’t make two distinct persons with two distict willings?

God the Father’s self-consciousness doesn’t make copies of the Father because that would be illogical. Not even God self-generates. Neither does God the Son’s self-consciousness make copies of the Son.

Rather, God the Son is the self-consciousness (the Word) of God the Father.

 

[ahightower]

My men’s study group is reading Frank Sheed’s Theology & Sanity. It is very good, if a bit of a challenge at 7:00 AM on Saturday.

My question is, can anyone better explain the difference between (note the spelling) cicumincession and circuminsession. He says this:

“The earlier theologians coined the word “circumincession” - the flow of vital activity within one another; modern theologians alter one letter and make it “circuminsession” - the utter repose of Three dwelling within one another.”

But I’m not quite sure I understand what that means. Any additional commentary or resources? Thanks y’all.